BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth

Subject: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:24 PM

Here is an article- taken from an address to the Alliance for Democracy in Concord, Massachusetts - whose content makes one sick to one's stomach. How do we get our countries back? And yes, I hold the UK also culpable.

Corporate Control of Our Mainstream Media

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 May 05 - 09:36 PM

And then there are actual letters from the front that contradict all the crap that the media put out too.

From an Assistant Division Commander In Iraq, private letter.

"Dear Friends,

"It isn't over yet, but today there was a resounding victory for freedom and democracy here in Baghdad. Having been here for a while now, many of us have grown weary of the hand-wringers, worriers, pessimists, whiners, and host of others who have been telling us for so long that all is lost in Iraq. Today we witnessed just how courageous the Iraqi people can be and how much they love their new-found freedom.

"After listening to the pundits tell us how terrible the Iraqi Security Forces are, today I watched the Iraqi Security Forces stand tall. They protected, 1,188 polling sites in Baghdad. Although there were a number of suicide bombers who attacked today, not a single one penetrated the perimeter of a polling site. There were several Iraqi policemen, and several Iraqi soldiers who lost their lives today. But they did not lose their honor or their courage; none of the 30,000 plus Iraqi Security Forces on duty in Baghdad ran away from danger today.

"At the site of our first suicide bombing of the day, voters did not lose their courage either. They quickly lined back up at the same site, spitting on the body of the suicide bomber as they passed by in line to vote. A woman came out of line and took the shoe of the bomber and put it on his face - a great insult to an Arab. The same was true at any polling site that had violence. Voters immediately lined up again to cast their vote. How many Americans value their privilege to vote enough to show that kind of courage?

"We have listened to many experts talk about how the Sunnis would not participate in the election. Polling sites in Abu Guyreb were moved to Gasaliya because the Iraqi Election Commission was concerned about security in Abu Guyreb. We watched thousands walk down the highway - Sunni Moslems - on the 7 mile round trip to the polling sites so they could vote. All under the threat that terrorists had been making that they would kill anyone who voted. How many Americans would do that?

"All over Baghdad the story was the same and I could tell a dozen stories of great courage and determination. Despite the enemy's campaign of terror, despite danger, threats, intimidation, and the sporadic incidents of violence and terror today, Iraqis turned out in determined, large numbers to vote. The excitement was moving. Even though the terrorists have said they will kill anyone with a "marked finger" (when you voted your finger was dipped in ink to keep people from voting a second time), voters paraded down the street holding their fingers up in joy and overwhelming pride.

"When I told one Iraqi I was sorry that people had died or been wounded today, he just said `freedom has a price, and this is the price that we must pay.' And every Iraqi I talked to said thank you to the United States for this opportunity, for this freedom, and how grateful they were for our help.

"I am sure it will only be hours until you start hearing all the `experts,' most of which have never been to Iraq, start trying to convince us that today was flawed, failed, or somehow less than a wonderful day and a blow for freedom. They are the same people who say we are failing here, that you couldn't do an election on the 30th of January, and on and on. It is true we haven't `won' here yet. It is not predetermined that we will win, and it will take continued sacrifice and determination on our part. Those who hate freedom and democracy will still fight, many to the death, to try to stop this march to freedom and prosperity by the Iraqis with our help. They are terrified of the thought of a free and democratic Iraq that leads this whole region to a democratic future.

"But despite this, I encourage you from here in Baghdad, for at least one day, to ignore the pundits and experts, to enjoy a day where a blow for freedom was struck. Know that somewhere in the world, because of the sacrifice of your friends, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, and countrymen; good won over evil, freedom over terror, and democracy over despotism.

"Last June 30, Iraq was given its sovereignty. Today, they earned their freedom. And we should all be joyful for that."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:02 PM

Brigadier General Mike Jones, Assistant Division Commander (Maneuver)
of the 1st Cavalry Division in the Baghdad Central area.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:13 PM

Dave, no one is questioning the courage and hopes of the Iraqi people. What you just now posted has nothing whatever to do with the article I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:46 PM

Like I've mentioned many times before in other threads, Scott Ritter, a former weapons inspector who was runnin' all over the country trying to get anyone to listen to what he had so say, was ignored by the New York Times and Judy MIller... It's like they had a job to do and they did it: Sell George Bush's war!!!

When I watch the news on TV I do so with an eye and ear toward trying to figure out just what Karl Rove wants the American people to ***think*** at any given time... Yeah, if he knows that thetre is bad news a comin' he'll get his PR boys together an' they will figgure out, thru control an' study groups, just how to present the bad news to make his boy Bush look god... Some great brainwashin' going on here and me hats off to Karl Rove... He would have served Hitler well...

Some things never change...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:48 PM

"Some great brainwashin' going on here and me hats off to Karl Rove"

Doesn't need to brainwash; a light rinse will do in too many cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Biskit
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:09 PM

Bobert,
you are so eaten up with hate for George Bush you can't see the nose in front of your face, this wasn't George Bush's war as you are oft quoted as saying, but it was a joint struggle to give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom,fought by, and for, courageous men and women against tyranny, and oppression and you know what,?? they are winning! despite you and your ilks effort to distort the truth to undermine the progress that they have made with your damnable lies and half truths, they will win the day. and when that day comes. I hope you choke on every one of your lies you rotten bastard.
Biskit! Gawddamnit!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:22 PM

"but it was a joint struggle to give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom"

Funny. I recall that the American people were told it was to

1) overthrow Saddam Hussein
2) get their hands on WMDs

Just an observation, because Hussein is gone and so were the WMDs. So why are all those troops still there? And when will they be leaving do ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:23 PM

Ebbie.. The only thing controlled about the media is a bias for sensationalizing trivia; and the ability to generate public opinion in a 30 second misinformation spot on electronic news. The printed media will not print anything that does not agree with the coporate political bent of the editorial staff. (this applies to both right wing and left wing elements). One reason I do not subscribe to any newspapers, and watch even less television today than I did ten years ago. So yes in a way it does apply to your post.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:25 PM

Biskit, you're so blinded by your love of George Bush that you can't see the truth that's in front of you--that not only did George start an immoral war, he is the one who fostered and in his own deluded way encouraged the current "insurgency" that plagues Iraq today. The U.S. is in an extremely perilous position in the world today, thanks to Dubya trying to prove to that world that he has bigger balls than his Daddy did as president.

You will certainly gag when you realize you took Dubya's story hook, line, and sinker.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,artbrooks
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:27 PM

Yes, our soldiers in Iraq are, or at least they were when they started, courageously fighting against tyranny and oppression. Yes, this will eventually give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom they likely never would have had. However, it is also true that Mr. Bush lied about there being weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and he lied about Saddam Hussain supporting Al Quaida or being a threat to the US. So, we now have over 1600 dead heros. Why? Who choose us as the world's policemen?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:28 PM

IF they fail, it will not be because the servicemen and women from all of the countries who have served in Iraq were not brave enough or did not do their jobs properly. IF they fail it will be because the US never had as its agenda to free the Iraqi people from anything, but to secure the oil for the oil companies. Please don't tell me to choke on that, Biskit, because it's the truth.

But that's not what Ebbie's article is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:53 PM

Hey Biskit - just a wildass guess...do you watch Fox News?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:58 PM

In fairness to Biskit, maybe the British people were told something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:03 AM

HUZZAH for the few who can see clearly enough, and speak plainly enough, and think straight enough, to throw off the Great Curved Lie. There ha sbeen more spin per cubic brain cell spewed out of Bush's media machine than in the last ten presidencies combined, including Nixon and Clinton. The man is half-mad and all selfish.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:12 AM

It's interesting that so much 'revisionist' history is out there already. Really.

I had understood--when I supported the war and was pissed at my own government for not supporting the US/UK/Spain/Bulgaria effort--that the aim was to get rid of Hussein (a $.50 piece of lead could have done that) and get WMDs out of the hands of Iraqis. Now, years after the war commenced, I am finding out that the war has been about freedom and democracy for an oppressed people. Wonder why the US leadership didn't say that to begin with?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:17 AM

One more thing Biskit: Here's your homework assignment. Go back and read Bobert's posts from the last 2.5 years, and list the "damn lies and half truths". Was he wrong about 100,000 Iraqi casualties? Was he wrong abouth no W's of MD? Was he wrong about house-to-house urban warfare? And how many times has his postion changed? I am sick to F-in death of the selective gymnastic memories of warhawks. Please find one goddam story and stick to it for at least one month.

BTW, I'm sorry. If we met in person, I'm sure I'd like you (although you should reserve the right to think I'm an ass). I even fight with loved ones/relatives over this shitty subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:17 AM

Because in order to say that, they would have had to clean up their own country first

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:19 AM

Sorry TIA,I was responding to brucie, there (in case you were wondering...)

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:31 AM

I recall damn well - from the speech made on the eve of the invasion - that the reason was mushroom clouds (nucular, of course), aluminum tubes and yellowcake to be given to the "terrists". The quote was something like "Saddam must disarm immedately, or we will invade".

Please correct me. Please go find a citation for a quote remotely resembling "please provide freedom and democracy immediately, or we will invade".

Tell ya what - I'll hold my breath. Aaahhhhhhp..........

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:49 AM

Television is the most extraordinarily effective tool of mass control that has ever been invented by anyone anywhere.

Amen! The physiological and psychological alterations that one undergoes while watching television are so severe that if they came in a pill, it'd be illegal to sell it.

KILL YOUR TELEVISION!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:52 AM

I did that years ago, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:55 AM

Ebbie: would you also accept as truth, editorial opinions that the invasion of Iraq was a positive thing for world peace?

That, after all, is what they are, opinions. The fact that they happen to coincide with yours does not really make them true.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:10 AM

Doug:

Did the hypocrisy of the proposition "War is Peace" ever get mentioned to you in a book somewhere?

The invasion of Iraq forced a complex situation into a gargantuan bonfire where everything is fuel and no cost is too great.

It was a reckless and immature solution which has cost the world more than it has given it.

Compared to other coursers of action that might have achieved comparable results without the paralyzing cost ofg human lives and destroyed cities, it was a psychotic course of action.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:13 AM

DougR - The invasion of Iraq has done nothing for world peace.

War does not equal peace. Maybe if the U.S. were at war on their own soil, you would realize that. Awfully smug of you to talk of peace when your boys are killing and maiming thousands, not to mention destroying whole cities.

Your arrogance is nauseating.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:14 AM

"Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one." - Alfred J. Liebling

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:22 AM

Just in case, Doug R, that you didn't get around to reading the article that I linked, here is a bit of it. Does this sound like OPINION to you? The non-highlighted part is from the perspective of the person who wrote the article; the bolded part is the evidence, both spoken and by photographs, given by someone who WAS there.

"The frustration I feel personally knowing that I and everyone else are being deliberately deceived and misdirected is topped by only one thing: The rage, horror and sorrow I feel when I finally do manage to carve through the crap and get to the truth. Because the truth, friends and neighbors, is so much worse than you can possibly imagine.

"In this mean and meager time of pre-packaged, pre-processed, corporate-controlled infotainment that passes itself off as 'news,' it is a rare and refreshing experience to see and hear a true journalist reporting the facts. I was privileged a couple of weeks ago to share a stage in Boston with Dahr Jamail, the reporter who could not stomach the biased non-news coming out of Iraq after the invasion, and went over there to see and report on what was happening himself.

"Jamail spoke in a calm and precise manner on what he had seen while in Iraq. His words carried the weight of witness, but more devastating than what he said was what he showed the crowd. For an hour, Jamail flashed photograph after photograph from Iraq on a large screen. It is one thing to hear the truth. It is another again to see it, in slide after slide, through the eyes of a man who was there and returned to tell the tale.

"Jamail's photo essay described the current situation in the starkest of terms. Buildings that had been bombed out during the invasion remain today blasted and unusable piles of rubble. One photo showed a blown-out supermarket with a collapsed roof. He took the picture in 2003, but showed it on Monday night because it looks the same today as it did when the bomb first fell. There are many times many such damaged buildings. The ones that remain standing are often pockmarked from machine gun fire.

"In a nation with the second largest proven stores of petroleum on earth, there are today gas lines that make the American gas-line experience of the 1970s seem a picnic by comparison. Iraqis must spend two days in their cars, sleeping in them overnight, to get a rationed 7.5 liters of gasoline, provided the station does not run out before they get to the pump. Jamail interviewed a high-ranking member of the Petroleum Ministry, who reported that the oil infrastructure is stable enough to provide gas to the country. That gas is not being provided, said the Minister, because the Americans are not pumping it, but sitting on it.

"Hospitals in Iraq are in utterly deplorable condition, with few specialists to treat common illnesses and the wounds inflicted on civilians by the bomb and the bullet, and almost no medicine. Almost all the best-trained and highest-ranking medical professionals have fled the country because they are targeted by criminal gangs seeking to extort money from them, leaving undertrained residents to handle the load. A Health Minister interviewed by Jamail said Coalition officials had promised $1 billion in medical aid. To date, almost none of that has been provided.

"The sanitary conditions are almost beyond description; one photo showed a hospital bathroom that was filled from wall to wall with urine and feces, because the plumbing does not work. To make matters worse, ambulances are targeted by American forces because they fear the vehicles are being used by resistance fighters. Jamail showed a photo of one such targeted ambulance that looked as though it had been driven through a blast furnace.

"In the best Iraqi neighborhoods, there is electricity available for eight hours a day. The rest of the nation gets electricity for perhaps three hours a day, if at all. At least two car bombs a day can be heard and felt, and the supposedly-safe Green Zone constantly comes under bombardment. Dead and bloated cattle line the roads, said roads existing in profoundly damaged condition.

"Some 70% of the population is unemployed, leaving a great deal of spare time for despair and rage to take root. A good portion of the violent resistance, reported Jamail, is being carried out by foreign fighters, Baathist holdouts and former Iraqi military personnel. But more and more, everyday Iraqis are picking up guns, he said, because conditions are so despicable. "

How dare we sit over here opining as to conditions over there when we have not been there- and refuse to take as truth the evidence given by people who HAVE been there.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:15 AM

The only liberation that has occured as a result of Bush's immoral war are the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of folks who when the dust settles will have been liberated from *life*.... Throw in even a greater number of folks who will be seriously disabled and this decision will one day be such an immoral one that even the best of the immoral historical revisionist won't get the stains out of it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:55 AM

Perhaps you might consider this. The hospitals are in that condition because the tyrant that ran the country used money that was supposed to go to medical supplies and food, for weapons and to support his military control and lavish lifestyle. Money that the UN was supposed to monitor and control. We now find out that there was corruption involved in the highest levels of UN administration. War damage done to Iraqs infrastructure would be repaired faster if insurgents (some foreign supplied) stop the daily kidnapping and bombing campaigns. Now the war is over, where is the UN? as usual it is proving itself as useless and incompetent as ever in suppling useful assistance to a country that desperately needs it. The USA is at least trying to get some semblance of civil goverment back in control, and for the most part Iraqi's are restoring and developing the country. Rome wasnt built in a day, and neither will Iraq. You can take lots of pictures and provide all kinds of commentary, but it is action and deeds that restore a country after war, not mindless bleeding by international media.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:38 PM

Possibly, Dave. But had the US really had as its goal the liberation of the Iraqi people, it would have followed an entirely different (and much more effective) strategy for prosecuting the war, and the insurgency would not be the problem for reconstruction that it is today.

However, you seem to not have read the article...

A Health Minister interviewed by Jamail said Coalition officials had promised $1 billion in medical aid. To date, almost none of that has been provided.

If the US really even gave a tiny little shit about the welfare of the Iraqi people (which it does not), it wouldn't just promise this money. It would also deliver it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:07 PM

Has it stuck people that maybe the US has NO intention of leaving Iraq anytime soon?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:52 PM

Of course we're not leaving. If we were leaving, why would we have contractors building 14 PERMANENT BASES
in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:19 PM

where is the UN dave? the UN pulled out because the US couldnt provide the security. Anyway its not up to the UN do anything, this was an optional war that Bush and the neocons pushed, alienating most of the US's allies, and discarding some of the very reasons that the UN was created for in the first place.

The UN is not some independent entity anyway but forum in which nations can resolve their differences, where war is legally defined and used as a last resort. It was founded by far seeing people who had just lived through the worst great power war in history, and who knew that the next one fought with nuclear weapons - would be far worse.
Bush discarded it in favour of the law of the jungle, essentially what we had in the 19th century.

It was never about terrorism. It was not even about oil.
It was about establishing and maintaining pax americana through military supremacy. The project of the alqaeda islamists collided with and energized the project of the neocons. (THis isnt some secret conspiracy, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld and CHeney have all either given speeches and published papers on this topic.

There have been some 23 different reasons given by the administration for invading Iraq. Whats amazing is just how much the american people have bought it. Why is it that more than 50% still believe that Iraq and 911 are still linked?

As occupier it is up to the US to provide security and help rebuilding. One of the dumbest military decisions (probably of the last century) had to be disbanding the Iraqi military and releasing 1000s of idle and embittered young men WITH their weapons.
Instead of putting them to work cleaning up the streets, the plugged up sewers, restoring electricity and paying them for it. THe group in charge before Viceroy Bremer replaced them, had planned and budgeted for it.

With only 2% of the IRaqi population seeing the US as liberators it is only a matter of time and sadly when enough American kids sent over there die, and the MOGADISHU Line is crossed. (that would be the number of US dead, the American population will accept) There is also the high cost borne by the US taxpayer. And unlike Wolfowitz predicted the cost of the war certainly hasnt been paid for by the oil revenues.

As for Pax Americana, see what happened to Britain.
THe US has 4% of the worlds population, and a rapidly declining 20% of the economy. In 30 years, CHinas economy is set to overtake the US,
with India close behind. Right now the European Union and other countries are taking a wait and see attitude, but if the US stays on its unilateral path, the world is going to go back to the old system of alliances and re-armament of the 19th century.

IT may be really surprising but the rest of the world isnt interested in the US being its globocop.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:03 PM

If the UN was doing the job it's supposed to do, it would be convening a war crimes tribunal against the US and Britain, as well as slapping the US and Britain with some heafty sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:39 PM

brucie: the coalition troops (yes including U. S. troops) will leave Iraq when the Iraqis can provide thir own securty

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:49 PM

First we were told this departure would be within 3 months of invading. Then we were told it would take 6 months. Then we were PROMISED it would be the following July (16 months). Then it was "admitted" that it would probably be up to 5 years. Now, anyone with a shred of integrity (e.g. John McCain) are saying more like 15 years.

And the pre-invasion protestors were AND STILL ARE ridiculed for claiming Iraq would be (is) a quagmire. Worse, they are branded unpatriotic, unsupportive of the troops - even treasonous for saying this. So, who was correct in March of 2003, and since when is being correct treasonous?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:27 PM

The troops will remain until there is no more oil to secure, or until there is a regime in power in Iraq that will unconditionally do the bidding of the US government and the oil companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 May 05 - 07:21 PM

If the UN had done its job, this would not have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 07:55 PM

Dave: what rubbish. the iraq war occured because of an agenda pursued by the bush admin. and cronies. the UN was used and abused in the process. as stated upthread, the reason they are not there now is that the US cannot (will not) secure the area. that is due to insane planning by the geniuses at defense OR to the fact that constant chaos allows the US to pursue its true purpose of building permanant bases and keeping a large military prescence in this key oil-producing area. which one do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:25 PM

GBush uses international law only when its convenient..
Cheney 'we dont need a permission slip from the UN to invade Iraq'

GWBush, 'Saddam was breaking International law UN resolutions..'
looks like you can have it both ways..
(its ok except when it applies to the US)..
theres still kids being born in Vietnam with no arms and legs, thanks to Agent Orange. I bet if a foreign power had used a toxic chemical defoliant on US territory in such a way, the US would be looking for all sorts of legal recourse.

The real issue of this thread is the misinformation in the US newsmedia.
Concentration, The right wing bias, the insidious control of public television, PBS and cutting any programs not favorable to the BUsh administration.
Luckily there is the internet, and before long, internet television hich is coming.

you might want to read gwynne dyers articles, www.gwynnedyer.net
for a fairly accurate insight into whats happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:30 PM

Dave, the UN was doing its job, until the US forced them to leave Iraq, making it impossible for them to continue doing their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:53 PM

LOL Dave.

From that leaked memo"


"We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force."

...

"The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors."

...

Contary to expectations, Saddam allowed this and from then I seem to remember the UN finding no smoking guns and us being sold tales like the 45 minute bit when all along they at least knew long before...

Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran.

...


but of course it was all summed up by...

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action.

and

It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:53 PM

Are you a tiny bit happy about Afghanistan? Or that #3 Al Queda was just captured? Is there a glimmer of hope anywhere? No oil that I know of, but sure lots of emeralds. Must be why we are there...watch for Laura Bush and Condi Rice to be fabulousy bejeweled at times. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:05 PM

Afghanistan is where the route for a very important oil pipeline is supposed to go. That is why the US invaded that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:50 PM

afghanistan: 3 days of anti-american riots, troops open fire on unarmed demonstrators, several killed. what a sucess story, eh? alqueda#3: debunked by british and american intelligence. the guy was "part of the flotsam and jetsam" (bbc).
glimmer of hope? well, it's one day closer to 2008 when we might be shed of the criminal that now occupies the whitehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:08 PM

mary garvey,

Are you collectin' information from any other source other than Fox TV???

I mean, no offense, but your arguments are like charactitures... Hey, there ***are*** other sources other than Fox...

Are you aware of the herion/cokaine industry???

Are you aware that Taliban/warloards still run well over 90% of Afganistan???

I mean, like I said "no offense", but you trivialize your own self by the sources that you apparently use as you ***news sources***...

And are you aware that the Bush administration has shifted its drug inforcement away from herion and crack cokaine toward kids smokin' pot???

Maybe you'd like to explain why Fox thinks this is the way to fight the "War on Drugs'????

Seems to me like an emergency room takin' the case of sniffles over the gun shot victim????....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:12 PM

Read this if you think conditions in Iraq are great!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7818807/site/newsweek/

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 May 05 - 11:36 PM

Well you can read things that claim to be the truth, but I dont accept everything I read in the press as gospel truth. As for Iraq, I state again if the UN had done its job this would not have happened, that I know is fact.

I dont blame Bush for taking action based on what he was told by so called Intelligence; and as far as the vehement anti Bush threads here, I know I'm wasting my time trying to debate it. BTW, just for the record I am no fan of your president either.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:11 AM

It seems odd to me that so many say that the UN is no good, it is useless, it need not be listened to - and then they say that the US had to take out Saddam because he didn't obey the UN. ??

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:36 AM

Hey, Ebbie, gimme the cause, I'll justify it for ya. Looking for integrity in official US policies as regards Iraq is like looking for logic in Shambles.

DougR challenged us to agree that the Iraq war has benefitted world peace. Sure, it has. That is why we have increased security at airports, and that is why the other day the staff at the White House was scrambled to safety when the Cessna entered Washington airspace. It's because of the increased world peace that these things are happening...right? And for the same reason the Australian engineer got abducted, and 80 were killed in Iraq by suicide bombers yesterday.

And that is why my Mum says: "Next time you come to visit us, why not drive across Europe for 2 days instead of flying?".

It's because of the world peace benefit from the Iraq war.

Sorry Doug, but such an erudite argument deserves an equally elegant response - bollocks.