BS: Left Hypocricy

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 07:38 PM

I meant to say that as McGrath ha indicated, there is no problem about the UK having a Catholic PM. The issue of papal opposition would not be a factor. A PM would live with that just as a catholic US president (eg Kennedy) would have to do. Or as Church of England PMs have had to do when their policies have been criticised by Archbishops of Canterbury.

Blair's difficulty was with the Catholic church. He had been accustomed to partaking of the eucharistic bread, courtesy of an accommodating parish priest, but this was stopped on the advice of the primate, the late Cardinal Basil Hume, on the ground that Blair had not been instructed in the faith. (This emerged from correspondence published after Hume's death.)

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:19 AM

Fionn

In your post of 05 Nov 03 - 07:26 PM. When you state, " Northern Ireland, alas, is one of those parts of the UK that has clung to selective education, and overwhelmingly to faith-based schools."

Can't understand the "alas" part of it - the system currently in existence in Northern Ireland is considered to provide the best level of education in the United Kingdom - that is backed up by results obtained right across the board irrespective of faith.

For some reason a "comprehensive" state system has always worked in Scotland, it has never worked in England, who now appear to be reverting to a split system, something like the old "Grammer School", "Secondary School" model.

The foundation of the Scottish system dates back to the time of John Knox - a school in every Parish and a college in every city available to all. Best thing the Scottish Parliament did was to reject the introduction of University Tuition Fees.

My own experience as a parent with what was on offer from the state system in Southern England was that it was in general manned by the disaffected, disinterested, and totally demoralised. To lessen the burden all of my children were hooked out of that system into schools that were independent of the state system. My wife and I paid for it, our choice for the benefit of our children, in order to do that we did without other things. But as a parent a good education is one of the few things of any real value you can actually give a child. So I certainly don't blame Diane Abbot regarding her chosen course of action, anyone is entitled to change their minds on any subject at any time. Hypocrisy? to some maybe, sort of like home ownership under Harold Wilson, when he flatly refused to allow council house tennents the right to purchase their homes - Harold and Mary at the time owned five residences, Callaghan and Healey each owned two - but us epsilons weren't even allowed to own one - now that was what I would call a real example of the hypocrisy of the Left that had major impact on the population - where so-and-so's kid goes to school does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 12:39 PM

Very simple: We v. Me.

That depends how inclusive or inclusive. "We whites" "We Aryans"...

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:24 PM

No reversion in that direction yet, guest. Wirral, Kent, Lincs etc never went comprehensive in the first place. Education in NI is obviously better for the select few; not so good for the rest. But also bear in mind that a high proportion of state schools there are faith-based and therefore better funded.

Blair wants to see more faith-based schools in England and Wales (he has even been supportive of a school in Gateshead that teaches creationism instead of evolution). And of course that would bring in more money and would no doubt raise standards. But in my view the state should not be looking to the churches to pick up a tab it should be picking up itself.

Just to repeat, guest, Abbott is urging other parents who can afford to follow her example (ie people like you) not to do so, for the sake of the kids who are stuck with the state system regardless. Anyone but a kindred spirit would find that stance ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 08:56 PM

In other words, "Don't copy me - what I'm doing is not really right."

I can't see anything ludicrous about that. There are all kinds of reasons why anybody might do things that they would prefer other people didn't do, and which they can't really justify.

What is ludicrous is when people pretend that whatever they happen to decide to do to suit themselves must be right. And that's what most people in public life seem to persuade themselves is the case.

The truth is, people aren't perfect and shouldn't pretend they are. It doesn't fool anybody anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 02:58 PM

For socialism to have any remote chance of replacing capitalism it must be espoused by people who have a firm belief in the founding principles.
Miss Abbott is certainly not one of them.
And by the sound of his last post neither is Mr McGrath....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocrisy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 04:00 PM

People who always sticks to their principles in all their actions are very rare,in any situation. People who bend their principles, but claim to be sticking to them are very common.

People who break their principles on occasion, but admit it, and still hold them as something to aspire to, are perhaps rarest of all.

There are elected politicians who are genuinely principled socialists - they only take what they need from their parliamentary salary, an ordinary working wage. The rest they pass on to where it is more needed.

But there's very few of them, sadly few - most take the money and hold onto it. That's where the break with principles come in, not in how they spend it. Some choose to spend that money sending their kids to expensive schools, while still living in a poor area among the people who elected them. More manage to have their cake and eat it, by buying expensive houses next to good quality state schools.

When politicians and media lefties who have made the second choice demonize Diane Abbott for making the first choice, as if there was any real difference - that is real hypocrisy. WE shouldn't be taken in by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 04:29 PM

What brand of socilaism are you espousing the principles of, then, ake? The sort that informed the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? The sort that inspired the communes of the 60's or the 1890's? The sort that governs Denmark? Hard to understand what founding principles you are referring to!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 04:33 PM

Mcgrath ..Much to my disgust ,Socialism has been beaten in the war for peoples hearts and minds, Helped in no small measure, by people of the ilk of Miss Abbott, a media socialist if ever I heard one.I was not in the least surprised by her hypocrisy,but am very surprised at your seeming excuse of her.
I believe you to be a good and sincere man,by your writing ,and wish that you could see the loss of the war as a chance for a new beginning ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM

I don't believe in the possibility of losing, in the end. But the end is a long way off.

The thing is Diane Abbott's hypoctrisy is in no way worse than that of most of the people in the media and in politics who have been attacking her as a way of diverting ayyemtion from themselves. No words, and in some ways better, because less camouflaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

McGrath, nobody's attacking Abbot for making the choices(well,nobody much). they are attacking her for her attacks on other people for making the choice, while being perfectly happy to do it herself. It's not being socialist or capitalist, it's being two-faced.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 05:29 PM

Sheer, utter bunkum, McGrath. Who in the media or in politics, in their criticising of Abbott's decision, have shown themselves to be worse than she has shown herself to be?

If you can't understand why her position is ludicrous, let me explain. She is saying, almost in as many words: "Do as I say, not as I do, because what I am doing is wrong." She knows she is wrong, on a matter of honour; she is blatent about it, and has every intention of continuing the behaviour that she herself judges to be wrong. Yet she is also continuing to rake in her £200,000 a year (not to mention those BBC fees which she somehow failed to register).

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM

Abbott's earning £200,000 ? What basis do you have for this Fionn ?

Apart from your own prejudices.

Reference to the online records of the Parliamentary Commisioner for standards makes no mention of this.

Though I note that despite your statement "Yet she is also continuing to rake in her £200,000 a year (not to mention those BBC fees which she somehow failed to register).

Diane Abbott does declare her earning from journalism etc.

Click 'Ere

and Click 'Ere

Unless, of course as a 'Crusading Journalist' you have better, more informed sources, which you must keep confidential !

If you have it is your duty to bring these matters to the attention of the Parliamentary Commissioner, and the Labour Party Executive - If not then I suggest you shut up - In this or any other non music thread.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 07:31 PM

Gareth ,Your continued abuse of a fellow member,seems to me to be personal ,undeserved and does not contribute to the vey good discussion.....Whats going on...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 07:50 PM

Who's worse? Or rather, who is more hypocritical?

People who buy better education for their childrten by buying houses in the right expensive places, and using other kinds of influence, so as to get their kids into schools which are much better equipped and resourced. And then they preen themselves on the fact that these are, technically, within the state system of education, and pretend that they aren't buying privilege every bit as much as if they'd paid for a place directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:01 PM

Fionn is reaping what he has sown.

akenaton, did you trouble yourself to check the accuracy of those links I posted, and compare the facts with what Fionn pasted ?

- A British MP earns £56,000 pa - not £200,000 - whatever her other faults are Diane Abbott does declare her extra parliamentary earnings.

Fionn would have it otherwise - OK let him act on that information, or shut up.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:18 PM

Gareth ...With respect,I dont believe you have the authority to tell anyone to "shut up".This forum is supposed to allow free speech.
Fionn is free to make his observations on Miss Abbotts earnings, and if you find them incorrect you are free to contradict him....Although,how either of you know the amount of money she really "takes home " is beyond me.
A personal fued on an interesting thread like this is a right pain in the arse ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:26 PM

I did contradict him - any complaints !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:49 PM

Im sure Miss Abbott's nauseating "second job" as a token leftie for the media must be very lucrative.
It seems strange to hear Miss Abbott ,a supposed left wing socialist,supported by a self confessed party hack like you ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 06:45 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth - PM
Date: 02 Nov 03 - 06:49 PM

I have no intention of defending the indefensible - I speak as one who made a point of opting out of Company "Health Insurance Schemes" when I was employed by companies who offered one - And no I did not gain financialy by opting out. ... "

Akenatom - Congratulations on a good memory - You are correct in calling me a "self confessed party hack".

You will also recall that in the past I have defended factually that bloody woman, M Thatcher, when urban ledgends have twisted facts to acuse that B***h of doing something that was not correct. Lets be fair
there is enuf misery on her hands not to need to invent facts.

Hack or not, I try to be acurate and fair !

By the same token Diane Abbott condemns herself over this, a point that Fionn, probably due to malice, ignores.

Fionn acuses Diane Abbott of not declaring her earnings from the BBC. A quick click of the mouse, using the links I posted above, proves this to be incorrect. Please do not suggest that a journalist of Fionn's claimed experience and computer litteracy, was not capable of checking against the "Register of Interests".

I suggest you PM Fionn and ask him for his source of her earnings.

As I said earlier, if Fionn has evidence that Diane Abbott has broken the law then he has a duty to lay his information before the Commisioner for Parliamentry Standards, and the Labour Party Executive. If he has not then I respectfully suggest that a long period of silence from Fionn would be both in order, and of benefit to any serious discussion in this or any other thread.

He has not done so. In which case I suggest that he refrains from posting - Full Stop.

With best wishes,

Gareth

PS if you wish to continue this discuission outside of the forum PM me, or E-Mail me at gcw72@hotmail,com

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 09:19 PM

I went to the hurdy-gurdy/bagpipes gathering at Audlem yesterday, hence I'm a bit late getting back to this thread, and hence perhaps Gareth's frustration.

Gareth raised two points with me. On the question of Ms Abbott's income, I'm afraid I relied on a BBC report, maybe in Jeremy Vine's Sunday politics slot a week or two ago. So far as the reporter could ferret out (because the info is withheld from the public domain), the typical MP rakes in about £190k a year in salary and allowances/expenses, a large proportion of which area at fixed rates and can be claimed without receipts, regardless of whether the expense was actually incurred. Being an MP also opens up other potential sources of income - for instance the Telegraph said this week that Ms Abbott's fee for flogging her story of the present episode will probably equate to the £10,000 school fees she is forking out.

The other point was something I read in one of the broadsheets this week but I can't remember which. I'm just heading off to the Balkans for a couple of weeks so I'll PM Gareth with a bit more on this if I remember. (While I'm away, I trust he'll find someone else to fill his life.) From Gareth's links on this point I assume he is saying Abbott had covered the telly money in her reference to "occasional journalism," but I may have overlooked something in my present haste. Gareth may think that full-programme participation every week in a televised politics show is covered by a reference to "occasional journalism," but I'm afraid I don't. Commendably responsible thought about the parliamentary commissioner, Gareth, but I couldn't be bothered.

Ake, Gareth is offended that my income has sometimes come from journalism, but he's as well rambling here as in bed. I'm sorry if our spats sometimes demean the threads, however. Just skip any posts from him, and from me too, because I do occasionally retort.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 09:27 AM

You all are sure a bunch fit to keep me away from socialism..self righteous or what ?

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 01:38 PM

Abbott is right, why should she send her son to mix in a school full of raggy-assed, snotty nosed,socialists brats. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 07:31 PM

Guest..9 27 AM
If you'r influenced by an egocentric shower of arseholes like us, your not fit to be a socialist..
Seriously ,has anybody got any idea whats going to replace socialism as an alternative to the right,now that its been completely dis credited by its proponents...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 07:51 PM

Well. needless to say at the time of posting Fionn has not bothered to PM me - What a surprise !!!

The rest of his post is his usual sneers, and deliberate misinformation on an MP's income and my attitude.

As Fionn's coments are generalised a number of points


1/. MP's Office and research costs are pad for by the Parlimentary Fee's Offive, against vouchers, reciepts etc.. The money does not go into the MP's pocket.

2/. Some montrhs ago I was asked to install a bit of standard party software into our local MP's computer system. No go, as this LAN was supplied by the Fees office I was not allowed to do so by the Parlimentary IT people (Yes using NT) - It's use was political, not parlimentary.

Instead the MP concerned had to buy out of his own pocket a PC and Printer to run it. Which he was happy to do.

3/. On the odd bit of reseach, or other work etc I do for South Wales MP's and AM's for which I can charge (ie non party political), I have to justfy those charges with time sheets, receipts, etc. before the the fees office, or the Assembly will pay me. - Oh and incase your wondering my earnings on this are less than £1000 pa.

Not the same story you are touting around is it Fionn ??

Finally Fionn acusses me of denigrating his making a living from journalism. - Balls - I despise Fionn because he makes his living as a proffessional anti, desperatly trying to get into Parliament himself.

Perhaps if Fionn was capable of pointing at a positive article by himself I might have a reason to appologise, but untill such time I see no reason why myself, any intelligent 'Catter, or the public should treat him other than as a squalid pain.

BTW I have no doubt that "ANON" will acuse me of attacking Fionn whilst he is away - Interesting, I have had no difficulty in logging in through another computter in the past, in Wales, or elsewhere !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:36 AM

Sorry to revive a thread that's past it's sell-by date, but Gareth won't be able to sleep at night until I do. (For his information, I did log on to the internet quite often while in the Balkans, but unlike him I don't live my life in these threads and had other priorities.)

His three numbered points above don't seem to have any bearing at all on what I said earlier, in particular my remark that many MP expenses are claimed as fixed allowances for which receipts are not required. I made no reference at all to office and research costs which are a separate matter entirely.

To pick up on another point in his last post, I'm a bit puzzled as to why he would think I'm desperately trying to get into parliament. I've never expressed the slightest interest in this, and though I have often held office in the Labour party and trade-union movement, I've always made it clear that I did not want to represent the Labour party in any public arena. Skirting close to expulsion from Labour as I have done over the past ten years would not seem a sensible strategy for seeking nomination as a parliamentary candidate.

To go back to the point about Abbott failing to register her BBC earnings, which I did not have time to clear up before heading to Croatia, here is an extract from the "London Spy" column of the Daily Telegraph (5 November):

Since it was revealed that Labour MP Diane Abbott is sending her son to the posh City of London school, some have wondered how she will afford the annual fees of more than £10,000. After all, her entry in the most recent Register of Members' Interests mentions no additional income on top of the basic MP's salary of £56,538.

But Abbott's entry is incorrect. For Spy can reveal that she has failed to register the cash that BBC1 has been paying her - since January - to appear on its Thursday night political review, This Week.

"Any remunerated work taken on by an MP, unless completely unrelated to parliamentary matters, has to be registered within four weeks of that interest coming about if it amounts to more than £550," the official in charge of the register explained yesterday.

Abbott, it seems, has therefore broken Commons rules. Should a fellow MP wish to complain, she could expect a serious rap on the knuckles.

"It was an oversight," she said yesterday. "There was no attempt at concealment: I thought I had declared something, but it seems that's not the case."

As to how much Abbott has earned, her co-star Michael Portillo - who does register such interests - includes two separate payments of "between £5,000 and £10,000" for appearances on the programme between January and July this year.

I think this should clear things up for Gareth. I did check for myself and found the situation to be as reported; moreover the Daily Telegraph's education correspondent (who did not write the above item) tells me that she also had checked and had discovered the failure to register but decided not to include the fact in her own reports.

Gareth has been kind enough to suggest that I enter a complaint, but as the article makes clear, this would be for one of Abbott's fellow MPs to take up. I'd be happy to give Gareth some links that might help his understanding of the registration process if he would find that helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 07:02 PM

Newark ? Fionn. Now don't tell me that you were the same person who when he failed to get the Labour Parlimentary nomination then spent the rest of his time collecting "evidence" on financial fraud against the selected candidate ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:57 AM

Well I suppose I can see why Gareth has wandered away from the argument. To be honest, I'd rather deal with the wilder personal stuff in PMs than keep a dead thread in the list, but since he keeps posting it for all to see, I feel obliged to keep the record straight.

No, I am not the "same person" who did those things in Newark, who no doubt had a different name from mine anyway. (My name is Peter Kirker, as Gareth knows.) I am notorious myself for making silly mistakes, but I would have thought it better to check before speculating on an allegation like this.

As I thought I'd made clear, I have never expressed interest in standing for any parliamentary seat in any party's name. Neither am I a member of Newark Labour Party any more than I was ever an official of Buckingham Labour Party (Gareth's last peculiar theory). With respect, I suggest that if Gareth has any more of these ideas, he tests them out on me via PMs before putting them in the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 01:46 PM

Aketon, you ask how can people espouse socialism when there are
those on the left who send their children to private schools?
First of all not socialists do this. Second, many are thought to be
socialists when in fact they are branded by right wingers as such.

Socialism is a economic and political philosophy and like any
other ideological construct, there are different ways to interpret
it. You are looking for consistency in an all too human world which
is tilting at windmills. Many of the principles are workable
applied to politics and economics regardless of the practioners and their embracing or rejecting of some parts or all of it.

You might as well say that any form of ideology is invalid when
compromised by any who say they follow it. So in that logic,
all religion, political parties, philosophical thought has to be invalid because someone doesn't follow it to the letter.

Socialism is also a large tent and there are many warring tribes that live beneath it. It's rare to find socialists that agree conclusively about everything. It's not a lock-step sheep herded type of thing but requires a lot of thinking and rehashing to
define it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:43 PM

Hi Frank Iv been a Socialist most of my life,but iv begun to see that lust for power and human greed always spoil the ideal.
This world is always going to be a cesspit, if we rely on politics to make things better.
Im reminded of the story of my hero Akenaton,leader of the mightiest empire on earth who got "socialism".He got rid of all the old gods and declared everyone "Sons of the Sun".The one true God,the life force.He believed that once every body thought like him ,there would be no need for armies or war.He neglected the military and within a few years the priests had "done him up like a kipper" to get their old lucrative jobs back.....Nothing changes...... Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 05:27 PM

"Be thou incapable of change in that which is right,and men will rely upon thee. Establish unto thyself principles of action; and se that thou ever act according to them.First know that thy principles are just,and then be thee".....


    AKHENATON.....1300 BC.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM

He was that odd looking Pharoe, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:45 AM

Just an update on poor forgetful Diane Abbott. The rest of this post is lifted from the (London) Daily Telegraph of Feb 3, 2004.

Second probe for Abbott

Diane Abbott's failure to declare outside earnings is to be the subject of a second investigation by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, Sir Philip Mawer. Last week, Abbott was forced to make a formal apology to the Commons for "forgetting" to register the £17,500 she earned as a pundit on the BBC programme This Week.

Now a second batch of earnings, from the London radio station LBC, are to come under scrutiny. In July, Abbott and Ann Widdecombe stood in for presenter Nick Ferrari. Widdy declared her earnings ("up to £5,000"), but Abbott did not.

Tory MP Andrew Rosindell has submitted a formal complaint, which Sir Philip will investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: mooman
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:00 AM

Clearly a case of onset of CRAFT's* syndrome in Diane's case...


* Can't Remember A F*****g Thing

Peace,

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:16 AM

I'm gobsmacked- the Left can include flawed characters- just like the Right?

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Left Hypocricy
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:45 AM

very good mooman - Craft's syndrome - hope I remember that one..

freda