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Help: The Foggy Dew: Sud el Bar? Huns?

DigiTrad:
THE BOGLE BO (or Bugaboo)
THE FOGGY DEW
THE FOGGY DEW (2)
THE FOGGY DEW (6)
THE FOGGY DEW (Irish 2)
THE FOGGY DEW (Irish)
THE FOGGY DEW (revolutionary)
THE FOGGY, FOGGY DEW


Related threads:
unusual versions of the foggy dew (43)
(origins) Origins: The Foggy Foggy Dew (bachelor) (53)
Help: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill): Copyrighted? (18)
Lyr Add: The Boogaboo (7)
Help: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill): tune? (26)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew: 'Over the hills I went...' (16)
(origins) Origins: Foggy Dew (Irish) (31)
ADD/Origins: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill) (28)
The Foggy Dew [O'Neil] (20)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew (lovesong-not weavers) (14)
(origins) Origins: The Foggy Dew[East Anglian Version] (68)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew (from Sinead O'Connor) (13)
Tune Add: The Foggy Dew (Alfred Perceval Graves) (10)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Foggy Dew parody (doggy poo) (3)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew (from Tony Capstick) (5)
Help: The Foggy Dew: 'Valera true'? (62)
(origins) Origins: The Foggy Foggy Dew (from Phil Hammond) (3)
(origins) Origins:Yorkshire Damsel/Damosel [Foggy Foggy Dew] (10)
Help: The Foggy Dew (from John McCormack, 1913) (8)
Info: The Foggy Foggy Dew [bachelor] (4)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew (from Martin Carthy) (16)
Help: The Foggy Dew: perfidious Albion? (11)
Lyr Add: The Foggy Dew - English (18)
Lyr Req: The Foggy Dew (Irish 2) (10)


JedMarum 29 Mar 02 - 12:56 AM
Alice 29 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM
Big Tim 29 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM
leprechaun 29 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM
Big Tim 30 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM
leprechaun 31 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM
GUEST 22 Nov 02 - 08:48 PM
Big Tim 23 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Owen 08 Oct 03 - 01:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,rockwell@nytimes.com 03 Nov 03 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,marthabees 03 Nov 03 - 08:10 PM
Big Tim 04 Nov 03 - 06:11 AM
Chris Green 23 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM
Big Tim 23 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 23 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM
Susanne (skw) 23 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM
MartinRyan 24 Sep 04 - 04:34 AM
Snuffy 24 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM
Mrrzy 24 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM
Lighter 24 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM
Big Tim 25 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,JTT 26 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Cathal Brugha 19 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM
Susanne (skw) 20 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,bats 21 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM
Susanne (skw) 21 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 14 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,jak 10 May 07 - 06:30 PM
leprechaun 03 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Cathal Brugha 16 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,guest 16 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Minna 18 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM
Minna 20 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM
Susanne (skw) 20 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM
Minna 23 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM
Minna 28 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
MartinRyan 01 Sep 08 - 04:35 PM
Minna 02 Sep 08 - 02:36 AM
Minna 03 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM
MartinRyan 03 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM
Minna 05 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM
Thompson 05 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM
Thompson 05 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM
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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 12:56 AM

Well, I don;t know where the tune comes from, but I know the tune was just meant to be played on 5 string banjo! Scruggs-style (sorta)!

We played this song at a bluegrass festival and they loved it!


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Alice
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 09:31 AM

Hi, Zena, good to see you here again. It is the lyrics that McCormack recorded that were written by Milligan, Clay doing just the arrangement of the tune. I don't think at all that Milligan wrote the tune. C. Milligan Fox wrote poems and had them set to existing airs. I don't know that she ever wrote music. I doubt it - I think she wrote lyrics.

Alice


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 02:11 PM

The tune is traditional, almost certainly taken by Fr O'Neill from the very popular "Moorlough Shore". The origins of this song and the location of "Moorlough" or "moor lough" are uncertain but generally taken to be Moorlough Bay on the north Antrim coast, not a million miles from Portglenone where Fr O'Neill was born and raised. There was a very scholarly thread on "Moorlough Shore", last year I think.

Mrs Milligan-Fox was a sister of Alice Milligan, poet and patriot (1866-1953). It's just struck me that she was born in the same year as Mary Anne McCracken died - makes 1798 seem not all that far away!


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM

And I wonder if John McCormack was any relation to the Captain McCormack who was killed in the 1916 uprising. I've heard of another man born John McCormack who intended to return to Ireland from the state of Washington in 1916 to participate in the rebellion. The impending birth of his third son is likely the reason he didn't go.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 01:54 AM

Of course I refer to the rebel version only.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:41 PM

I understand he was also a tenor.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

A problem with new atlases is the use of more politically correct names. In my National Geographic, Galipoli is Gelibolu, Seddelbahr is Seddülbahir, and there is no Suvla Bay or conversion that I can see.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:48 PM

Can anyone clear up the P. O'Neill / C O'Neill debate for sure - who wrote the Foggy Dew? I am P O'Neill and I was brought up in the west of Scotland and taught (rightly in this climate) never to promote Irish rebel culture - but - the Foggy Dew was always in the background and remains one of the outstanding (and too good to be adopted by Glasgow "neds") Irish rebel songs.
As a P O'Neill myself, I would be interested to know who wrote this


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:27 AM

The authority for my post of 01 Feb 2002 is the [County] Down & Connor Diocesan Archives in Belfast. Their full entry record for Father Charles O'Neill is:

"Charles O'Neill, B.A.

Ord.[ained] on 21 July 1912.

Born in Portglenone, on 20 September 1887.
(brother to Fr. P.J.O'Neill, famed scholar of St Malachy's College [Belfast] and uncle of Revs. C. & M. Dallatt)

c.c. [curate in charge?] Whitehouse, 1915.

c.c. St. Peter's
(While c.c. in St. Peter's preached at ceremony at Mass Rock, Cushendun [Antrim] 1933 and for some of text see "Irish Colleges on Continent).

P[arish.P[riest]. Kilcoo, 15 July 1941

P.P. Newcastle 1 August 1955

Canon, October 1960

Author of the "Foggy Dew"

Died on 8 May 1963 and buried in Newcastle [County Down] cemetey behind old Church in main street."


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Owen
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:22 PM

I to was perplexed by the reference to sud el bar however I did locate an area known as Seddulbahir a region in turkey that was involved in the invasion of Gallipoli,And Suvla etc. (I believe beach V during the invasion was in this area,) during the first world war. I believe Sud el Bar is a contracted spelling of this location
Any comments?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:09 PM

Owen, current names used in Turkey (and new maps) were posted in a thread discussing the songs about Gallipoli. Try thread 40287: Suvla
I believe that this is the one. Enter Gallipoli in search and other threads come up.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,rockwell@nytimes.com
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:21 PM

Does anyone know about the different takes of Burl Ives singing "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" (the romantic one, not the Irish revolutionary one)? On the original Stinson LP from 1949 his performance lasts 2:14. On the 1996 British CD reissue of early Ives songs there's a different take, identified as from a 1940 CBS broadcast. It's listed at 2:24, but actually only takes 1:54. What I want to know is: in what year was the version on the Stinson LP recorded?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,marthabees
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:10 PM

Alice wrote: " Then SPIED in my arms... " at the end of the song

I wonder if that's "expired"..... Seems to make sense, anyway.

Martha in Tallahassee


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 06:11 AM

Further to my post of 29 March 02 re location of "Moorlough Shore", I have traced some info that convinces me that it is located on the River Foyle, near Strabane, on the Tyrone/Donegal (and the Irish/British) border. If anyone is interested, I can look out the details and post them later.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOGGY DEW (Chris Green, 1998)
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

Don't know if it's of interest to anyone, but I wrote this version after the Drumcree fiasco in 1998.

The Foggy Dew 1998

Through Portadown in North Armagh
one summer's morn fair rode I
And grim-faced lines of marching men
in columns passed me by
No pipe did hum, but the lambeg drum
Did sound out its wild tattoo
And the rhythmic beat of the marching feet
Rang out in the foggy dew.

Oh, the eve fell black and the rifle's crack
Volleyed plastic bullets at the mass
And the sable night was made as daylight
By the petrol bombs' blinding blast
The talks and plans for a safer land
Were torn once again in two
And the ancient sore ran with blood once more
And stained the foggy dew.

I turned away then and rode off again
And my heart with grief was keen
For the chances fled and the needless dead
And the thought of how it could have been
But to and fro in my dreams you go
And I weep and I pray for you
May you orange and green soon together keen
For your fallen in the foggy dew.

Chris


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 02:47 PM

I previously posted that the song was written in 1919, because I read that somewhere.

However, since the writer is aware of the death of Cathal Brugha, "fallen with Cathal Brugha", it couldn't have been written in 1919, as he died during the Civil War, on 7 July 1922.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

From what I remember reading about the Rising (mostly the book Rebels, which is not at hand) Brugha was wounded pretty severely and lost consciousness-- would count as "fallen" to me!
Alternatively-- does "fallen" mean "fallen while fighting under the command of"?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM

John, is that line in the original? I've heard "fought with Cathal Brugha", which is more ambiguous, and "fought with Valera true", which does even less to fix the time of writing after 1922.

Your quotation from the Down & Connor Diocesan Archives above gives no date of authorship. Also, contrary to Martin Ryan's post of 12 Nov. 1997, Cathal O'Boyle doesn't claim the song was written in 1919:

"The words of this song were composed by Canon Charles O Neill, who was parish priest of Kilcoo and later of Newcastle. In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dail Eireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by the foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion. I have seen his song printed many times but have never seen his name mentioned and I think it is about time he was recognised. The music belongs to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack and the original manuscript of the words and music, in the possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle, names Carl Hardebeck as the arranger." (Cathal O'Boyle, 'Songs of the County Down')


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 04:34 AM

Suzanne

I see what you mean! I'll try to check otherwise.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Is the tune not a relation of the Star of the County Down family?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 02:24 PM

What about the I was a bachelor foggy foggy dew? I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread at all... I recall something vague about it being banned because the bachelor had a son, so the line "so now I am a bachelor, I live with my son" was changed to "again I am a bachelor, I live with my son" - any info on that song, origins etc? Or is that for another thread?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

Many threads on "Foggy, Foggy Dew."

It was banned from the radio for many years for the very reason you suggest, and Burl Ives said he spent a night in jail once in Utah for singing it, around 1940.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:33 AM

Good point Susanne. Yes, come to think of it, I've heard it sung that way too.The only way to know the date for sure is to find where and when the lyrics were first published. I'd be surprised if the answer couldn't be found in the NLI or UCD.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

I just want to add that Noel Murphy is still a very fine singer living near The Lizard. I saw him about 4 years ago and Derek Brimstone saw him last year. Ive got his number somewhere if you would like to book him - pm me. I got in contact when he wrote a series of enchanting articles about his childhood for the Irish Post.

he made a very creditable album with some fine musicians about five years ago, including the late and marvellously talented Aiden Ford.

Yes I suppose it was difficult in the 70's for Irish singers who lived in England - - living amongst the tide of tasteless Irish jokes the English were sheltering behind to conceal their fear of their closest neighbour. I know of at least one Irish singer who simply stopped working as an entertainer and did something else later to re-emerge.

Far more germane to to the situation was probably the sectarianism in the folk clubs around that time. Traddy versus everybody else. Immense pressure on performers to toe the party line - play in DADGAD tuned guitars, ornament simple tunes with 'grace' notes, finger in the ear, etc. The other success story of the era was of course folk comedians.

Noel was a straightforward minstrel with no po-faced pretensions and no hard edged comedy routine. i saw him round about that time doing the Boggery club in Solihull. The audience just had no concept of shutting the f--k up when he was doing something like Freeborn Man, or Rocky Road to Dublin. My god on his night though, Noel Murphy was bloody terrific and I loved his performances.

Yeh maybe he should have de-camped back to Ireland, but there were lots of great players who got it wrong there - I remember Johnny MacEvoy saying he'd got it wrong, round about the same time. And he was another jewel.

anyway peace and happiness to the lot of you!


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM

Huns: the English liked to refer to the Germans as "Huns" at the time of the Great War, on the basis that (a) they behaved like the Huns when they ravaged Europe, and (b) they were descended from them. Irish nationalists returned the favour, for the same reasons.

Sud el Bar - a contemporary spelling:

Barnsley Royal Marines WWI


PLY 610/S L/Cpl. Chas. Harold BENFELL (No.4 Coy. Plymouth/2RM Gallipoli 1915) Demobilised 13/6/19.


Harold Benfell was one of three Barnsley lads who enlisted with Jack at Manchester 10/11/14.


Harold's account of the action at Sedd-ul-Bahr 4/3/15, from the Barnsley Chronicle, front page 10/6/16:- "On March 4th 1915, our company landed on the Gallipoli Peninsular to demolish the forts and I was one of the first to put a foot on the shore. I led the way to the entrance to the forts at Sud-el-Bar and within ten minutes of the time I received two bullets - one through the top left pocket and another under my right arm. For a second I stood gazing around to see where the man was that fired but he was concealed quite safe in some little place made for the purpose. Previous to that I signalled back to the OC that all was quite clear, the place seeming to be forsaken and quite dead; but we found it very much alive. More bullets came across and I made my way inside the forts for cover, though very little was to be found. I was followed there by two other men out of my section and we considered ourselves cut off from all communication. An hour passed away before we could get out of this place and the three of us lay there on the ruined wall which had been blown down by our ship's gun. The bullets were whizzing around us and I can assure you we had a very warm time and a lively experience. We were just cooling down when a line of heads was observed above a mound 25 yards in the rear. We three thought our time had come when just at the critical moment good luck favoured us, for instead of it being the enemy it turned out to be the remainder of our platoon, and the relief was too great for words! We managed to get back safely."


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:17 PM

Can someone please help me with the pronunciation of Cathal Brugha. I've heard:

Cat hull brug
Ca hal Brug
Ca hal brug ha
Ca hal Brew


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM

Not really an expert, but on the Dubliners recording I have the last version is used.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: GUEST,bats
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

I didn't know the version of "Foggy Dew" that mentions Suvla but that battle is also mentioned in Eric Bogle's "The band played Waltzing Matilda". It had me puzzled for years, I thought it was "Sula Bay" and couldn't find it in the Atlas
    And how well I remember that terrible day,
    How our blood stained the sand and the water
    And of how in that hell that they called Suvla Bay
    We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
    Johnny Turk, he was ready, he primed himself well.
    He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shells,
    And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
    Nearly blew us back home to Australia.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

This thread has more info on the names in 'The Band Played Waltzing Matilda', I think. Seems you're not the only one puzzled by 'Sula' or 'Suvla'.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

I know it's a long time since this thread was current, but it may be of interest to add that John McC actually recorded TWO songs, "The Foggy Dew"; the one to which reference is made here, "As down the hill I rode one morn..." in 1913, and earlier, I think 1908, the slow one beginning "A wan cloud was drawn o'er the dim, weeping dawn". Incidentally, I hear two lines rather differently from suggestions given here, tho it's true that both of these acoustic recordings suffer from surface hiss: the maiden's eyes were
"bright as the dew that weeps
On the Shannon's verdant side", and at the end she
"The sigh'd in mine arms
And all her charms
Were hidden... in the Foggy Dew"


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,jak
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:30 PM

hi, im new o the thread, but i was wondering if anyone had any more information on the the version of the song by the dubliners ( the when i was a batchelour airy and young i followed the roving trade)

i know its similar lyrically to other versions but the dubliners version is in a minor key, as opposed to the happier version i've heard commonly

thanxs for any information

evilaxeman0@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: leprechaun
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:27 PM

Hi. It's me again.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Cathal Brugha
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM

Just noticed this question about the pronunciation of my and my grandafther's name.
Generally Cathal is pronounced "Co hul" or, in Dublin, "Ca hal"

In the song Foggy Dew Brugha is pronounced using the Irish (language) version "Bru"

The English (language) version is pronounced "Bru a"


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM

An earlier post mention Sinead O'Connor's version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13MQFCfCYdQ

However, she does sing "Moorlough Shore" as well, so perhaps that's where the confusion with lyrics comes in.


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Minna
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

Hello,

I'm doing my bachelor's thesis on Irish nationalist music (most likely songs about Easter Rising) and I'm thinking of analysing The Foggy Dew. My problem is that I cannot find information about when the song was written and I can't get much out of the song itself. In many books (and also here) it's said to be written after 1919 and the earliest recordings and references in books I've found are from the 1940s/1950s. Can anyone help me? (I also need to know where the information is from to put it in the bibliography.) Another problem I have is the lyricist of the song. It seems to me that Charles O'Neill is the most believable author but I don't have any sources of that. I cannot find O'Boyle's book from Finland (at least in libraries) or travel to visit the archives in Ireland... Good someone recommend another book, website etc?

I already gave up on this song once because of these problems but decided to give it another try. I'd love to compare it with Erin go Bragh (Row in the Town). That might even give me a good basis to build on in my master's thesis... But that's still far away. Thank you for your help in advance.

Minna


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

Minna:
In C Desmond Greaves' book 'The Easter Rising in Song and Ballad' the author of 'Foggy Dew' is given as The Rev. P. O'Neill - no more information, but I'll pass it on if I find it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

Thank you, Jim, for your fast reply. I found some information about that book in the Internet but couldn't find it from Finland (surprise surprise...). Is it said where the name of the author was found? It's quite annoying to notice the information often go in circles. E.g. I have this book on Irish songs and it tells almost the exact same origins of the song as mentioned in this thread (author Charles O'Neill etc.). I checked the bibliography and found that www.mudcat.org is mentioned there...


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

Some more info, though I doubrt it is very helpful academically:

[19??:] The words of this song were composed by Canon Charles O Neill, who was parish priest of Kilcoo and later of Newcastle. In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dail Eireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by the foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion. I have seen his song printed many times but have never seen his name mentioned and I think it is about time he was recognised. The music belongs to an old love song, recorded in 1913 by John McCormack and the original manuscript of the words and music, in the possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle, names Carl Hardebeck as the arranger. (Cathal O'Boyle, 'Songs of the County Down')

Maybe someone can supply the year of publication for O'Boyle?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Thanks Susanne. There's at least an edition from 1979. If someone has the book, I'd really appreciate if they could check the references/bibliography if they exist. Where did O'Boyle get that information from?


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM

Minna
Sorry - lost the thread- so to speak.
Greaves' ref. to P O'Neill is certainly wrong - it's a sloppily researched book with virtually no references.
Songs of County Down ed. Cathal O'Boyle Pub. Gilbert Dalton, Dublin 1973.
The book gives no more information than you already have.
The two friends I would automatically have gone to for this information, Tom Munnelly and and Frank Harte, are now, sadly no longer with us.
Somebody you could ask is John Moulden, contributor to this forum occasionally, and a mine of information. I might be seeing him tonight, otherwise you could pm him - lovely feller.
Martin Ryan, also a member, is extremely knowledgable, but might be on holiday- try him.
The Irish Traditional Music Archive, 73 Merrion Square, Dublin 2 might have some more information, but you will probably have to write or phone (01 661 9699 - or fax 01 622 4585).
In the meantime, I'll keep looking - you've got me quite intrigued myself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

Just back from holidays, Jim! (as a result of which I will miss tomorrow nights session in Miltown, unfortunately).

Earlier in this thread, Big Tim did the sensible thing and checked the parish records! That seemed to confirm the Charles name - and I've stuck to my Freudian analysis of "P O'Neill" ever since! Most of the Web references go round in ever-decreasing circles and contribute nothing to the debate. There is just one (recent) newspaper reference to "Patrick O'Neill" as author. Given that the paper is based in Newry - I'm intrigued.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:35 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:36 AM

Hello,

Thank you Jim and Martin. I found that newspaper article and read it. I'm also planning to search the Irish Newspaper Archives for older references as soon as I get to the University and have a printer. But if that doesn't help contacting the Irish Traditional Music Archive would be a good place to ask as you suggested, Jim. I think I'll also have to see if I can contact the County Down & Connor Diocesan Archives where the information about Charles is from.

Minna


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

Hello,

Today I had the chance to check the Irish Newspaper Archives and here's what I found:

1. the earliest completely certain reference to the song was in Meath Chronicle on October 28, 1922. That article doesn't really tell anything about the song but there's a part of the first verse.
2. some older articles mentioned "modern" or "most recent" version of Foggy Dew but I cannot know for sure which version they mean. I found these references from the time period January 3, 1920 - July 15, 1922. There might be more than one "modern" Foggy Dew these articles are refering to.
3. some articles also had some verses or even the whole song but the author wasn't mentioned. (e.g. in November 11, 1954 Leitrim Observer The Foggy Dew was under "Old Songs and Ballads" with no information about the origins.)
4. and finally, what was told about the author:

This is what Leitrim Observer says about the issue on June 8, 1957. ("The Foggy Dew", page 6, I don't know the writer of the article.)
' - - the version of "The Foggy Dew" (the words by Rev. Charles O'Neill, who was a Curate in St. Peter's Church, Belfast, about the time of the Rising). He adapted his verses to the melody of "The Foggy Dew" which was first printed in "Songs of the Irish Harpers," edited and arranged by Charlotte Milligan Fox.'
Then the article continues to tell about the origins of the melody and briefly discusses the meaning of "foggy dew". Later in the article the writer continues:
'When Father O'Neill adapted the air for his stirring song, he had the good fortune to be associated with the late Carl G. Hardebeck, who was then an organist in one of the Belfast churches. Mr. Hardebeck retained the melody as published by Mrs. Fox, but gave it a vigorous setting, so that it sounds quite different than the old folk song. Hardebeck gave militant touch to the accompaniment, which never fails to arouse an Irish audience to a high pitch of enthousiasm. In his lyrics, Father O'Neill stresses the fact that Irishmen who are duped in the service of Britain, receive very little recognition form the British Government after all the tumult and shouting has died down.'
And the article goes on with this analysis until it ends with lyrics to the song.

Reverend T. J. Lavin, Ph.D., M.A. in "Poets of the Easter Week" (page 8) in Irish Independent, April 7, 1969:
'Father Charles O'Neill of Belfast wrote the "Foggy Dew", a song that still stirs nostalgic memories in most of us, for it was sung in thousands of homes throughout the length and breadth of Ireland during the long and dark but glorious nights of the Black and Tan era.' (Lavin also writes about O'Neill: 'Other fine songs he wrote, too, for his sensitive nature was deeply moved by the glorious deed of the dead patriots.')

Especially the writer of the article in Leitrim Observer seems to know what they are talking about. And I think it's likely that the song was written between 1919 and 1921 based on both the references on news about concerts from that time and the couple of mentions that the song was sung during the Anglo-Irish War. What do you think? Am I completely wrong with this interpretation?

Minna


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM

Minna

No - I reckon you're completely right!

Good work.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Minna
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

Hello,

I hope this information will also help someone else. Actually I shouldn't have published any text from the newspapers online but if anyone wants to know something more about those articles, just PM me. I still want to thank everyone who helped me to get information. And if someone has more information about Charles O'Neill (or the song itself) I'd be glad to hear about it.

Minna


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

Minna,
Thanks for your work - I hadn't realised how little I knew about a song I grew up with.
I would appreciate any further information you come up with - (perhaps even the meaning of the term 'foggy dew'!!!).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

The foggy dew just describes a typical early morning in an Irish glen; I remember driving up the mountains to go hillwalking a few years ago and passing Glenasmole just as the sun was warming it - the glen was steaming like a kettle, with clouds of fog boiling up out of it.

A few points: "As down the glen one Easter morn..." - Easter is the time of the Easter Rising, and the armed men in squadrons who passed by in silence were marching to take part in that rising.

On the other hand, I don't know what the Angelus (rung at noon and 6pm) is doing ringing at the time when you'd be heading in to a fair!

If it's ringing over the Liffey, the singer is presumably somewhere on the circle of the river between the Sally Gap in Wicklow and its debouchment into the sea in Dublin city centre.

Better to die 'neath an Irish sky than at Suvla or Sud-al-Bar - this refers to the choice made by Irish Volunteers; the majority joined the British Army to fight in World War I for the implied promise of 'Home Rule'; the others fought the British in Ireland.

(A question slightly clouded by the fact that hundreds of thousands then returned home in 1918 and joined in the War of Independence, rejoining the Irish Volunteers to fight the British, after the suppression of Irish nationalism and the execution of the leaders of the Rising.)

Royal Meath: Meath, the county where Tara is, was the old seat of the High Kings, and an important religious and cultural site. Sign's on it, the Irish government is now driving a motorway through Skryne Valley, where Tara is sited.

Brittania's Huns - the British referred to the Germans as 'Huns'; this is turning their own insult back on them.

Wild Geese - the Catholic aristocracy of Ireland were forced into emigration en masse in the 18th century, where they became mercenaries in the armies of Europe; cf "Was it for this the Wild Geese spread/ a grey wing on every tide?"

Lonely graves by Suvla or the waves of the grey North Sea - the two areas where there were the greatest number of Irish Volunteers (now in the British Army) slaughtered in the Great War. And Ulster Volunteers too, of course.

That 'small nations might be free' - the recruiting catchcry of the British at the start of the war was the brutal treatment of 'small nations' such as Belgium by the Germans (who were indeed brutal) - the point being made here is that Ireland too is a small nation, itself being brutalised by an empire.

Had they died by Pearse's side and fought with Cathal Brugha - Pearse was the leader of the 1916 Rising, and Cathal Brugha the Minister for Defence in the first Dail, if I'm remembering rightly; Brugha was killed fighting for the Republic during the Civil War, which lasted until 1923.

Where the Fenians sleep - a dual reference, to the Fianna, the warrior poets who were under the command of Fionn Mac Cumhaill in the myth, and also to the 19th-century revolutionary group of which Tom Clarke, one of the seven signatories of the 1916 Proclamation of Independence, was a member.

Perfidious Albion - originally 'perfide Albion', perfidious England, in the 17th-century French insult.

The rest is more or less free of metaphor, I think.

I hope this is some help, and expect a bottle of champagne on your graduation, Minna!

I assume you also know the Foggy Dew that starts "As down by the glenside, I met an old woman"


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Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew (NOT Bachelor)
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Incidentally, 'down the glen' is old-fashioned but still current slang in Ireland for 'rightly fucked', but this usage comes from a different song, with the line "Down the glen rode Sarsfield's men, and they wore their jackets green". In fact 'jackets green' is also shorthand for the same usage.

For instance:
"How are the Waterford team doing in the final?"
"Jackets green."
"Oh dear."


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