BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:23 PM

Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
- Benito Mussolini.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country ...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."
-- Abraham Lincoln, letter to Col. William F. Elkins, Nov 21, 1864. Reference: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling power. Among us today a concentration of private power without equal in history is growing."
--President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. (One Thousand Americans, George Seldes, page 5.)

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..."
-- General Douglas MacArthur, 1957.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Mets., for those fine quotations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:33 PM

Your welcome Amos, I felt they add more authority than any comment I could come up with, which would probably be dismissed as the railings of a mad woman.

I do not post these as only comments concerning the US, Canada has always been up to its neck in this and what is more insidious, is that it is far more covert in this country. This instills in some Canadians, a naive sense of righteousness.   

America was born of revolution, Canada was born of corruption and expediency. We're all bozos on this bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:50 PM

Metchosin... thanks! ...been doin' yer homework! You just made my day. What I'm gleaning from your input suggests that perhaps it's time to update the concept of 'fascism', and because we are so 'advanced' here in the US, doesn't mean that we aren't reliving past lessons... And so, why is it so taboo to study and apply history's lessons to a current regime? Because it always has been. The more totalitarian the regime, the less tollerant it is of studious reflection...

Gaze with trepidation upon the naked emperor... and suddenly... millions began to laugh at him...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:24 PM

As an addendum, Canada may not have wanted to appear on your list of the "Coalition of the Willing" but we're probably at the top of the heap when it comes to the "Coalition of the Pretty Damned Helpful".

And if you want to send our citizens to Syria for interrogation that can't be done at home because of domestic scrutiny ......pssst ....Hey.....No problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:13 PM

But you'll still be barred fom getting the contracts...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:46 PM

McGrath, you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 10:21 PM

Metchosin - Great quotations! I myself have used the term "corporatism" to describe the monster which is devouring the World, but I had no idea that Mussolini had tagged it way back in the 30's with that name. I did know that Lincoln had seen it well on the way in the 1860's. There is a movie out now called "The Corporation" that addresses this issue very directly, and should probably be seen by anyone who cares about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". A corporation is a fictional, invented being with the legal rights of a living human being and the mindset of an egomaniacal psychotic monster. It lacks a conscience, a moral sense, and a sense of proportion. It seeks only to enlarge itself. It is also potentially immortal. This adds up to creating an insane god (or demon) and then having people serve it till death does them part. You may die, but the corporation lives on. What a disastrous institution on which to found an economy or a society!

Indeed, it is not so much fascism we should fear as it is the rise and dominion of corporatism.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:31 PM

Thanks for contributing, harpmaker!! LOL!! Loittle Hawk says a corporation "acks a conscience, a moral sense, and a sense of proportion. It seeks only to enlarge itself. It is also potentially immortal".

I submit that this is not inherent in the definition, legal or social, of a corporation. The corruption in individuals that leads to some corporations looking that way is human corruption. There are people and cultures which have made decent companies and corporations that cared about their staff and their customers and their shareholders alike. 3M, Gore Technologies, and the early Apple come to mind, Steve's egoism aside. I urge you to discriminate in the quest for correct causes and right targets to aim your rhetoric at!

The actual problem is when a corporation grows so large that it cannot communicate coherently and an individual can no longer feel he can communicate with the top. At that point, dehumanization occurs and all the ills of corporatism begin to set in.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:26 AM

Perhaps you should check this out, harpmaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:02 AM

McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM

"...the drama and spectacle. The kind of thing that people enjoy in a lot of Hollywood movies.

Another is the idea of a strong and decisive leadership, taking decisions that sort out all the complicated problems, doing what needs to be done. "Triumph of the Will."

Another is the idea of all of "us" together, proud and undefiant. And free from the contamination of those among "us" who aren't part of "us". "Tomorrow belongs to us".

And another is the appeal of getting in touch with our roots, where we came from. Escaping from the chains of rationality and logic and compromise.

Put it in those kinds of terms and it's not hard to see how a very seductive package can be put together,"

Certainly works for Yasser Arafat and his followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:19 AM

Works for Karl Rove and his followers, too.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:42 PM

Those are good quotes. The meaning of the word has become a source of torment to me. It seems that the accurate historical and substantive definition would tends towards "a concentration of private power in the affairs of national government," while the other matters of "patriotism," etc. (even oppression, perhaps) are the wrapping, or possible symptoms. The forties, however, seem to have changed the meaning of the term so greatly as to render it almost useless for communication. The word is used for shock and awe, not to convey the above. (So perhaps we should just drop it from our vocabularies?)

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/wi04/berman.htm :

"But isn't George Bush himself a fascist, more or less? I mean-admit it!"

My own eyes widened. "You haven't the foggiest idea what fascism is," I said. "I always figured that a keen awareness of extreme oppression was the deepest trait of a left-wing heart. Mass graves, three hundred thousand missing Iraqis, a population crushed by thirty-five years of Baathist boots stomping on their faces-that is what fascism means! And you think that a few corrupt insider contracts with Bush's cronies at Halliburton and a bit of retrograde Bible-thumping and Bush's ridiculous tax cuts and his bonanzas for the super-rich are indistinguishable from that?-indistinguishable from fascism? From a politics of slaughter? Leftism is supposed to be a reality principle. Leftism is supposed to embody an ability to take in the big picture. The traitor to the left is you, my friend . . ."

But this made not the slightest sense to him, and there was nothing left to do but to hit each other over the head with our respective drinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 02:31 PM

And it works for a lot of other movements as well, including Arafat's opponents.

That list was not intended as a definition of Fascism, but as a list of some of the characteristics which could be claimed for it, and used as a distraction from other less attractive qualities. Rather in the way that, if you were listing the appeal of MacDonalds, you would include some features you might find in a place where they sold good food.

.............................

The point about a corporation is that, while treated in law for many purposes as a person, it is an amoral person. It is possible for human beings who control it to impose ethical standards on it. But often the human beings in control do not choose to do so, or find themselves powerless to overcome the drive to achieve what is seen as the primary aim of the corporation, profits for shareholders.

The state is essentially a special kind of corporation, looked at in these terms. The Fascist state brings out that essential identity especially clearly

What is needed in both cases is an equivalent of Asimov's Laws of Robotics, inbuilt ethical standards which get in the way of doing things that damage society and the environment, and provide a safeguard against it falling into the control of human beings who are willing to subordinate ethical considerations to other aims, such as profit or power. That is the situation which is very characteristic of Fascism, but also of virtually all states, when push comes to shove.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:35 PM

He's not a fascist but his willingness to turn blind eyes marks him as the kind of man who could become one, or who could support one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: harpmaker
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

NOTICE. The above post from 'harpmaker' was actually NOT from me. On the 26 jan, somebody posted the same thing all over the threads on Mudcat- claiming to be 'harpmaker' and all saying the same thing. Hope this clears things up. From John, the real Harpmaker. PS. just incase your wonderin' Its not true!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for, uh, setting us straigh5t, there, John!! :>) Wouldn't have believed it for a minute!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:59 PM

That means that the first "harpmaker" post must have been put in by someone who knew the real harpmaker's password. I'd strongly advise him to change it, pronto.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

I know I shouldn't but I had a big laugh rereading McGrath's post and replacing 'password' by 'size of penis'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,harpmaker-honest, Iam cookieless!!
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:25 PM

Nice one Wolfgang! McGrath, thanks for the advice, but in this case it won't be nessesary. I know the person who did this terrible thing, and they did it on my computer while I was out of the room!! It was all done in good humour, But I had to put a stop to it 'cos people where looking at me funny round our end! I wont mention any names, but the person responsible playes a nylon strung guitar & rides a mountain bike!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: harpmaker
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:36 PM

Subject: More on approaches of Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 07:06 PM




Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical

By BILL HILL
15 May 2004


Bill Nevins, a New Mexico high school teacher and personal friend,
was fired last year and classes in poetry and the poetry club at Rio
Rancho High School were permanently terminated. It had nothing to do
with obscenity, but it had everything to do with extremist politics.

The "Slam Team" was a group of teenage poets who asked Nevins to
serve as faculty adviser to their club. The teens, mostly shy
youngsters, were taught to read their poetry aloud and before
audiences. Rio Rancho High School gave the Slam Team access to the
school's closed-circuit television once a week and the poets
thrived.

In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of her
poems before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque,
then read the poem live on the school's closed-circuit television
channel.

A school military liaison and the high school principal accused the
girl of being "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq
and the Bush administration's failure to give substance to its "No
child left behind" education policy.

The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to
destroy the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job.

Bill Nevins was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his
students. Remember, there is no obscenity to be found in any of the
poetry. He was later fired by the principal.

After firing Nevins and terminating the teaching and reading of
poetry in the school, the principal and the military liaison read a
poem of their own as they raised the flag outside the school. When
the principal had the flag at full staff, he applauded the action
he'd taken in concert with the military liaison.

Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political
opinions, the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." What a wonderful
lesson he gave those 3,000 students at the largest public high
school in New Mexico. In his mind, only certain opinions are to be
allowed.

But more was to come. Posters done by art students were ordered torn
down, even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical,
implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers
who refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms
were not given contracts to return to the school in this current
school year.

The message is plain. Critical thinking, questioning of public
policies and freedom of speech are not to be allowed to anyone who
does not share the thinking of the school principal.

The teachers union has been joined in a legal action against the
school by the National Writers Union, headquartered in New York
City. NWU's at-large representative Samantha Clark lives and works
in Albuquerque.

The American Civil Liberties Union has become the legal arm of the
lawsuit pending in federal court.

Meanwhile, Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and
was offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's
principal sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal
has refused to do so, and that adds yet another issue to the
lawsuit, which is awaiting a trial date.

While students are denied poetry readings, poetry clubs and classes
in poetry, Nevins works elsewhere and writes his own poetry.

Writers and editors who have spent years translating essays, films,
poems, scientific articles and books by Iranian, North Korean and
Sudanese authors have been warned not to do so by the U.S. Treasury
Department under penalty of fine and imprisonment. Publishers and
film producers are not allowed to edit works authored by writers in
those nations. The Bush administration contends doing so has the
effect of trading with the enemy, despite a 1988 law that exempts
published materials from sanction under trade rules.

Robert Bovenschulte, president of the American Chemical Society, is
challenging the rule interpretation by violating it to edit into
English several scientific papers from Iran.

Are book burnings next?

Hill is a retired News-Journal reporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:45 PM

There has obviously been a takeover of America by Facists. They must have been planning this for decades. How absolutely horrific. No more free speech in America.

Hats off to the teachers who refused to comply with the mean-spirited principal. How are these teacher surviving? I hope the union has set up a fund for living expenses. What are the parents doing about it?

This is such an obvious abuse of power. This information should be reported world wide. The U.S. is dying a slow death and until people start supporting these students and their teacher, there will be no recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:16 AM

One of the fundamental purposes of primary and secondary public education around the world is to create citizens loyal to their countries. "In time, the savage beast doth bear the yoke."

Recall the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Recall the attempt in Saskatchewan to ban "The Stone Angel".
Recall the etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., et . . . .

Hell, teachers have been getting in trouble for stuff that contributes to 'thinking' in the teaching/learning situation. Recall too that teachers are amongst the first people shot when fascist/totalitarian groups take over countries.

This is blatant, but it isn't new.

Amos, I sent you a message regarding the post, and I hope you will answer ASAP, SVP. Thank you.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:23 AM

The article above comes from http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN62051504.htm

Click here

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:21 AM

Amos said: Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical At least I think it was Amos and not part of the 'cut and paste'. I feel that this statement does seem a little ironic, on this forum.

Perhaps we just think for a moment and decide why the 'cut and paste' in the first post linked to here, caused the subject of the following thread to be automatically deleted by, and this action defended by some still unknown 'Guest' (and many others)?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=69253

There appears to be a hard and fast rule that the 'cutting and pasting' of non-original material can and will be deleted by our unknown volunteers. Perhaps it can be explained how and why this thread (and the original one) which was started by a big 'cut and paste', was not deleted also, and why Amos's latest 'cut and paste' contribution, is not also automatically deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:36 AM

Shambles, i reposted this thread because i wanted to get back to the topic.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:16 AM

My dear Freda.

I thought the topic (or at least Amos's new post) was freedom of speech?

To my mind that means that I or anyone else, (in BS a thread) could talk here about just about anything we choose to (as long as it is not simply personal abuse). You or anyone else, do not of course need to respond and I see that you did not.

That is freedom of speech.

Long may it be so on this forum and everywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:32 AM

I can't speak to the diffuse and apparently circular points above; I pasted the article because Id idn't have a link at the time, since it had arrived in an email. I later found the source in the archives of the e-list.

There is a world of difference between a private discussion group and publicly funded education.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:02 PM

There is a world of difference between a private discussion group and publicly funded education.

You may think so and you are welcome to express that view, although to me the concept of free speech is just that and should be fought for, where ever it may be under threat and no matter how noble the reasons may sound for preventing it.

I think that such qualifications as to any supposed or relative differences as to where, will only tend to make the constant fight to ensure this right, only more difficult.

But this is now a PRIVATE discussion group? It is? Since when? It is obviously much later than even I thought it was......

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:52 PM

Oh dear Gawd, Roger. It always has been. Privately funded, privately maintained and improved through the volunteer efforts of a very few. The fact that it is open to public use is a generosity on the part of the publisher. If he wanted to he could curtail the membership at will, entirely according to his own discretion. If you weren't such a pinko, you would see that. We participate here on that footing.

Freedom of speech does not mean -- for example -- that you have the right to barge in to a radio station and grab the microphone. It is not the equivalent of freedom of media, which doesn't exist anywhere and would be really tricky to organize if it was ever even wanted.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM

Amos: A million thanks for posting the article. I have sent the article to my teacher association. I hope they reprint it in our provincial publication. Something similar is on its way here, too.

Thanks again, buddy.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:16 PM

It always has been. Privately funded, privately maintained and improved through the volunteer efforts of a very few. The fact that it is open to public use is a generosity on the part of the publisher. If he wanted to he could curtail the membership at will, entirely according to his own discretion.

The Mudcat Cafe itself may well be as you describe. However the forum is a part of the Mudcat set aside for contributions from the public. There would be little point in a discussion forum that was not open to the public would there? Unless you just wanted to talk to yourself or only read views that you approved of and agreed with.

This was not the site owner's intention, however I fear that it looks sometimes like it is the intention of some for the forum. Perhaps it is they who should find or start another forum where they could do just this? Instead of trying to take credit for all the many fine and weird contributions that have made the forum what it is and feeling that they have some right to impose their views upon and delete the contributions of others.

The generosity and the original intentions of the site's owner for the forum is not in doubt and is much appreciated by me and many others. The contributions from the public (good and some not so good) have made this public discussion forum what it is. Any attempt to restrict the freedom of speech on this forum, should I feel be fought here as it has to be fought everywhere else, including public (and privatly) funded education.

People act to restrict freedom of speech (like the example provided)mainly because they feel they have the power to do this. Some of the reasons they then use to justify this would be laughable, if the implications were not so serious. This shows little respect for those who have entrusted them with this power.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:30 PM

OK, Sham, I yield. I am all for freedom of speech. It has to be regulated in extreme cases, and this whole discussion has been had several times before so let us not repeat it. 'Kay??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:21 PM

Amos:

Thank you for posting the article. I have spoken with my teacher association (sent them the article and info as to how to reach the publisher) and I am hopeful they will reprint it in our provincial publication. I think it presages what we can expect here within the next few years. Excellent, Amos, and as we say in firefighting, "Good eye!"

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:30 PM

Bruce:

Good luck -- I hope they publish it and it generates a sweeping wave of libertarian outrage that engulfs both our gummints!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:31 PM

Here's a link to the poem that got them so steamed up - Revolution X-- Courtney Butler

This whole thing feels like an episode of The Simpsons. Especially that Principal.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:54 PM

I like that poem!! Ballsie stuff!! Right on!!

Peace,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:02 PM

It's an interesting site it's on too. Here's a quite I liked:

"After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing." By President Eisenhower.   Whatever happened to his kind of Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:03 PM

It's an interesting site it's on too. Here's a quote I liked:

"After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing." By President Eisenhower.   Whatever happened to his kind of Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:58 PM

Does anyone know of a site I could go to to get the addresses of every teacher organization in the USA? I will be working on Canada after school tomorrow. I think the poem and article should be read by every teacher in North America.

Even my Grade 9 English students were really angry today, and many shook their heads in disbelief. I read the article to them, and one girl--a good poet--was staring at me with her mouth agape. My Grade 11s will read the poem and the article for class on Monday. If you hear a loud noise from Alberta at about 11:15 AM our time, you will have a rough idea where we are located.

Amos, I keep saying thanks to you, and I keep meaning it. I feel like shouting something appropriate: "Viva la Revolucion", but that wouldn't be very dignified for a 56-year-old teacher. So allow me instead to say, "Friggin' A, Amos muh man!" Thank you too McG of H.

Tell me this: Are we still on the planet Earth?

What a travesty.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:33 PM

I will 2nd that brucie and include you as well. You all provide me with a beacon of light in a world that doesn't seem to understand the importance of educating our children to question everything and express their thoughts and ideas. An educated citizenry is essential to democracy!

Courtenay Butler deserves alot of recognition. Unfortunately, she will, like so many of our drop-outs, become disillusioned with a system that discourages anyone from 'making waves'.

In B.C. we now have a govt. appointed, College of Teachers that has a policy that states they will investigate any complaint from any member of the public. That includes people who have never discussed the problem with the teacher or the principal or the school board. With that kind of threat hanging over your head, who would dare to be controversial? The public doesn't seem to understand that this will lead to a bland and mediocre education at best.

Hats off to you, brucie. Get the message out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:48 AM

OK, Sham, I yield. I am all for freedom of speech. It has to be regulated in extreme cases, and this whole discussion has been had several times before so let us not repeat it. 'Kay??

Amos you were the one that stated Speech is free unless it's critical.

I will just remind you that it was you revived this thread with a (strictly forbidden) cut and paste job. The subject of this was important to you and you felt that it was relevant to this thread. I have no problem with any of that at all.

However, had I done the same thing or someone else had done this and the post was thought to be critical of the Mudcat in some way, I suspect that the outcome would have been somewhat different. The least that would have happened is that this posting would have been accused by some of single-handedly hi-jacking the thread or being off-topic...And you Amos, would have come out with all of your usual justifications and excuses, (as you have) no matter how hypocritical these may read after your cut and paste contribution and comments.

At the worst, some unknown 'Guest' volunteer, may have just decided to delete the post...And this action would be defended as just following the 'rules', by many who, I suggest should really know better and recognise when things have become, too late......

However, one contribution from me in this thread, after that point on the matter of freedom of speech (that is thought to be critical of The Mudcat) is thought to be off-topic. This observation, made in a post from that contributed nothing else to the debate. This is the second thread with this (form) of title and this happened because I made some contributions to the original one that I thought relevant then and I think relevant now. My view of this is that folk are free to agree or disagree with my contribution, or they can just ignore it.

What actually happened was a hysterical reaction and some ridiculous claims that my contributions (possibly critical of the Mudcat) alone had hi-jacked the thread! If such a thing (whatever it means) were possible. That is why this second thread was started, quite needlessly.

My view is a simple one. It is that all abuses of human freedoms, start (and end) with you and I. It is comfortable for us to only blame Governments, institutions and each other, but the buck stops with us as individuals and what restrictions on those freedoms, that we are prepared to find (so-called good)reasons to excuse in our daily lives. I think many would agree, that if we do not wish to appear as hypocritical (and worse), we do need to be careful and consistent, in what restrictions of freedom, we choose to attack and what ones we choose defend - and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:03 AM

I certainly did not state that in this thread, Roger, and if you think I stated it somewhere else I'd like to know where. Otherwise you're just inventing stuff.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:02 PM

Today I sent the article and poem to five teacher unions/colleges/associations in Canada.

Next, the USA.

Then the world.

(Should Oz be included in that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:08 PM

Amos said: Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical At least I think it was Amos and not part of the 'cut and paste'. I feel that this statement does seem a little ironic, on this forum.

One of the problems of cut and paste, is that it is not always certain who actually said what. Pehaps we can just accept that it was you Amos that originally posted the quote (or title) to this forum? And also possibly, by posting it, that you were in agreement with what I think was the intended irony?

Of course someone may cut and paste something that they do not agree with at all - but I did not get the impression that this was the case here? Perhaps it was?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:17 PM

Pretty bloody obvious that Amos was in agreement with that irony.

Myself I think that the kind of incident that Amos brought to our attention deserves a bit of attention. If Shambles want to raise his concerns about what he sees as improper limitations on free speech in the Mudcat, there's a little device at the top of the page called Create a New Thread which might come in handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Perhaps Amos could have started another thread also?

Or perhaps he was comcerned that an earnest and unknown volunteer guest may have deleted his new thread, if it was started with a cut and paste job?

Perhaps we should just always start new threads, just in case someone considers one's contribution to an existing thread is off topic?

Perhaps it may be better to just ignore posts that you consider to be off topic?

Maybe we can just discuss all the issues arising - as you would in a face to face conversation, with adults, without hiding behind 'the rules' or making them up? We have different views and ways of doing things - that is part of the magic of this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:46 PM

Very true.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:08 PM

brucie - Did you send it to the BCTF or do have to do some work too? :>)

Send it to Australia and England, too. They should know what their 'buddies' are really all about.