BS: security concerns about Norway shooting

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:38 AM

They are determined that this will not engender a culture of fear and paranoia...

Unlike the culture of fear and paranoia- stoked at every opportunity by the TeaBaggers & fundagelicals - that the U.S. is currently in the grip of.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:46 AM

"All of that has zero to do with a nut job killing children in Norway. If you are civilized and sensible you will not conflate the two because if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done. Civilized people cannot excuse what he has done. Sensible people would not excuse it.

Are you sensible and civilized? If so, please raise your concerns about Norway's immigration in another context."

"if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done."??

A number of points Jack that I will put as simply as I can.

1: Breivik himself stated that the Norwegian Government's immigration policies were part of the reason he carried his attack AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT - Note against the Government not against any immigrant.

2: I have no view at all that could be considered anti-immigrant with respect to Norway. It would be very hard for me to justify such a view seeing as quite a few years ago now I used to be what you could term as "an immigrant to Norway" (unlike you I have actually spent a great deal of time in the country)

3: At no time at all have I ever attempted to either justify of excuse what this monster did - In fact quite the reverse.

You post - "Get a grip yourself. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It is not appropriate here." - addressed to Akenaton??

Taking the noun bigot to mean - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

It would appear that you are the only bigot posting to this thread.

"If they have continue to have such politically charged events with such a small amount of security, I would be surprised."

"such politically charged events" - A youth rally?? The Prime Minister of Norway Jens Stoltenberg more or less promised the country that this incident would not rob the country of the slightest vestige of it's democracy or deny any branch of his Party the use of, and freedom to enjoy, the facilities on Utøya. A memorial will be erected there within the next 12 months and in all probability it will be unveiled when the Youth Movement of the AUP reconvene to hold there Rally there next year.

Did the attacks of 7/7 stop people using buses or the Underground? No they bloody well did not. The people of Norway will not be cowed by the actions of a single maniac.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:57 AM

""Will you all please give the sarcasm a rest.

We get it. You all think Mary is stupid and you all think yourselves very clever.""

Well done Jack! You pick the only person who wasn't being sarcastic to attack.

My point was the precise opposite of your misinterpretation, since I made a genuine attempt to say that Mary was looking at this from a different cultural perspective, and far from being stupid, was trying her best to understand that difference.

I don't think myself very clever at all, but I do read what people are actually saying before sticking my foot in my mouth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:00 AM

"In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety"

You were serious when you said this?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

I am not norwegian, I do not live in Norway, therefore i will leave Norwegians to deal with Norwegian issues. Deal with the weeds in your own garden before telling your neighbour how to do his garden.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM

I think the weeds in the garden is bigotry on the Mudcat such as introducing a gross exaggeration and distortion of Muslim immigration in Norway to a thread about and anti-Muslim killer of children.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

Don T, I didn't take what you said as sarcasm but just a little broad. Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere. Not in my experience.

I have had a police car stop and ask me if I was OK. I have had the cop tell me that he'll keep an eye out for my return. I have never been threatened by them in any way but I have also never been told I couldn't/shouldn't walk there.

I have had a cop ask me if I was being harassed by another pedestrian and being assured that I could handle myself went on his way.

Ebbie, who now lives in an area where people/women walk alone any hour of the day or night but lived also in Oregon, Michigan and Virginia where she was more circumspect.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM

The bigotry being displayed on this thread is yours and yours alone Jack.

The information relating to the immigrant population in Oslo was introduced to explain why the Norwegian authorities immediately after the explosion were specifically emphasising that they did not know who was responsible.

I passed on what was heard in one interview in which what the interviewee said was not made perfectly clear.

This you leapt on and worried like a dog with a rag. You write much but say very little.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:28 PM

OK Teribus

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere.

Unless its a Black person walking in a White neighborhood, that is. And in that case, they ususlly deliver 'em to the police station.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:58 PM

Police in the US do not pick up someone walking alone and deliver them anywhere.

It happened often when I was growing up in rural Wisconsin. The cops thought it their job to know all the kids, and to keep them out of trouble by giving them friendly attention. It was a nice way to grow up. I have the impression that still exists in Scandinavia - and probably also in places in the U.S. with Scandinavian roots like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and the Dakotas.


Enah, hey?


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM

"Unless its a Black person walking in a White neighborhood, that is. And in that case, they ususlly deliver 'em to the police station." Greg F


And you know thqt, Greg, how? We hear only about the ones it happens to.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 11:21 PM

Oh, Teribus -

I meant to say something about your comments about Americans and their mistreatment of Native Americans. You're right - to a point. But most people who are Americans now, are people of lower-class European roots who came much later that those who decimated the American Indians.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:37 AM

My point, Joe O, was that the roots of the Native American decimation began with non-native born people in the new world. They were primarily English. Perhaps they taught the next generations too well.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:51 AM

Again, though my ancestors were not involved, for reasons explained, we are not not responsible for what our forefathers did. We are responsible for what we do now.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 08:04 AM

And you know that, Greg, how? We hear only about the ones it happens to.

I'm confused. You admit that it happens. Yet you question my knowledge that it happens? Perhaps I know from personal experience?

Guess you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years of news reports?

I'm sure if Azizi had not been driven off this forum, she would be happy to educate you further.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 10:04 AM

My wife and I were the first non-African Americans in this neighborhood. I don't know of any "white neighborhoods" in this area. But there are gated communities. I wouldn't recommend that any kid go and just walk around there but everywhere else they are more or less left alone unless they are wearing gang or prison style clothes and not otherwise acting suspiciously.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

Greg F, I am not challenging the data. I thought you might accept that there may be some Black persons who have not had that experience.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 01:21 PM

I thought you might accept that there may be some Black persons who have not had that experience.

Of course I accept that some have not. But way to many, and likely more, have.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:31 PM

I fully agree.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:39 PM

If you were saying that young people are being hauled off to jail just for being black. I would dispute that. If you are saying that socioeconomically Blacks are more likely to display the behaviors that would cause them to be dragged off to jail, I don't know.

Do you think that cop had the problem with the Boston cop because he was black or because he acted like he had a chip on his shoulder? Its sometimes difficult to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:52 PM

Jack: You're not familiar with the offense of Walking While Black.

Guess you've never heard of the offense of "Drivilg while Black" either?

Do you think that cop had the problem with the Boston cop because he was black or because he acted like he had a chip on his shoulder

Both. And this sort of thing is hardly an uncommon occurrence.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:03 AM

Greg, Have you heard of 50 years, of protests and lawsuits?

In the part of Wilmington NC where I live, most of the Police I see are African American. Most of the people hauled away are young African Americans. You have your speculations about the causes. I have mine.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

You have your speculations...

Hate to disagree, Jack, but I wish they WERE "speculations".

Unfortunately, they're provable, documented, current fact, even after
"50 years, of protests and lawsuits".

Your anecdotal evidence can't necessarily be applied universally to the entire country.

QUERY: What's the ratio of Black to White residents where you live?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

"anecdotal evidence" I do not have anecdotal evidence I have my own observations.

Interesting phrase "anecdotal evidence". Do you have something other than anecdotal evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 01:56 PM

As I just tweeted on #BBCSML, it's worth noting that many peaceful people have genuine concerns re economic/capitalist immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:45 PM

"As I just tweeted on #BBCSML, it's worth noting that many peaceful people have genuine concerns re economic/capitalist immigration"

aye people using a truly tragic event to further their rather questionable political, economic and social views.

'appens all the time, dun it?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

That is perhaps true. But those concerns do not have a place in a civilized conversation about this action. Any fruit of these murders is tainted. Any action or condemnation of the intended victims, whether Muslim immigrant or Norwegian government worker or liberal protesting child is corrupted.

I am not asking you to not discuss these things. I am saying that you should discuss them on a separate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM

Guns do kill people, particularly religious guns, fanatical guns, and the Synecdoche does work here. The only way to address this issue is to determine that there are Christian terrorists in the world and they have to be watched as equally as Islamic terrorists or Jewish terrorists.

There is no security unless we understand this aberration.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:00 PM

anecdotal evidence, Noun
        1. information obtained from personal accounts, examples, and observations. Usually not considered scientifically valid but may indicate areas for further investigation and research.
        2. A limited selection of examples which may support or refute an argument, but which are not supported by scientific or statistical analysis.

The evidence I have, Jack, is not anecdotal, but comes from the statements of the Black folks involved, court cases, investigations into police misconduct, and substantiated reports in the media since about 1965 or so.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:50 PM

On weaponry - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#100

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:15 PM

mediocre doggerel, Walkaboutsverse, but it hardly addresses the issues, not that I can see, anyway

'appens all the time, dun it?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:23 PM

Christian terrorists??.....Surely not, Christians should define themselves as non aggresive.

Do you mean the Norwegian? I dont think he was motivated by Christian belief......politics or psychosis....they usually go together.

Or do you just mean terrorists who happen to be brought up as Christians?

Muslim terrorism is something completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM

Regardless of who commits it, terrorism is terrorism and extremists are extremists,
I don't care what damned religion they practice!

so enough with the casting of stones!!

'appens all the time, though, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:47 PM

Extremist....hmmm would you like to define that?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: BTNG
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 06:06 PM

"Extremist....hmmm would you like to define that?"

Certainly!!

noun:

a person who favours or resorts to immoderate, uncompromising, or fanatical methods or behaviour, esp in being politically radical

adjective:

of, relating to, or characterized by immoderate or excessive actions, opinions, etc.


'appens all the time, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:03 AM

"So enough with the casing of stones"....unfortunate turn of phrase I think.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

But then you have to define "excessive" and "immoderate" and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:00 AM

Y'all are starting to read like the Monty Python "argument sketch."

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

You started it! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM

I might be arguing in my spare time!

Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:28 AM

:-)