BS: Northern Ireland Mess

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:35 PM

One final thing...the (mostly Scots Irish Americans--an irony which never fails to escape notice of some of us) Southern segregationists were ideological brethren to today's Orange Order in the UK. They too were afraid to desegregate. They too said "not one inch" and "never surrender" and all those absolutist terms. They too believed the backlash against them for decades of lynchings, etc would be substantial. They too had their Ian Paisleys and their David Trimbles (ie George Wallace, Lester Maddox, etc). But yet, we know just how wrong they were about everything, just as the unionists and loyalists are now. First the American abolitionists, and then the desegregationists DID change and transform a much larger nation, the United States, and end slavery and segregation in the US once and for all.

Ireland will do it too, but it won't happen, like I said, until the British government allows the unionists and loyalists to walk out, and continues the institutions without them.   THAT is when the true, meaningful change will happen in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM

Actually Ireland, I do have one more final word. You look to me like a fuckin' troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:03 PM

Guest there is no argument to win, my point is I have enough to be bitter about to keep the old prejudices going, I have recognised that SF has a lot to offer in doing so I hold no bitterness, I see their worth you seem to have a problem in recognising that.

I cannot say the same for you, as you see no good in the unionists to the extent your telling those who support the GFA they don't and all the blame lies with them.

If the IRA are as acceptable as you make them out to be then in your opinion the world leaders who see the IRA as terrorists are out of step with your views, total arrogance. The Irish premier does not want SF with an illegal organisation tagged to it, the unionists and the British government have so far tolerated the IRA SF link.

The fact remains that the IRA is a terrorist organisation it fulfills the internationally recognised definition on terrorism, and if SF wants to be involved in any democratic process it has to recognise that fact.

Just because you recognise their spying as being in the interest of nat/rep community does not explain what use the details of 2000 prison officers are to that community.

I'll tell you the use, if the licence of the released nat/rep terrorists are revoked. The IRA have the details of each and every prison officer that they will use to threaten the prison staff, if you have read my posts you will know the scenario of how such info would be used.

This is why the intelligence gathering was illegal it is of use to terrorist and in that context you cannot complain if people object. The IRA were covering their back and got caught doing so, they were displaying a lack of commitment and to use the rhetoric about unionists using it to wreck the agreement does not negate the responsibility that the IRA has in this mess.

What SF is trying to do is convince nat/rep that all the blame lies on the unionists, because they are afraid of losing their support and as you put it "It is the nationalist and republican communities that now stand to lose everything they gained, not the unionists." SF/IRA do not want to be held responsible for that so they blame everyone else except those who are at fault themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:11 PM

Your a big man guest, you miss the point totally, thanks to SF/IRA we are now left with the possibility that Paisley's crowd and the anti-GFA crowd can get their foot in the door. And that does us no favours at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 08:40 PM

Ireland, I fully understand your point of view but lets be honest, if it was not for the spy thing it would have something else. Many unionists will go to no limit to scuttle the GFA, the spying just gave them an excuse. What excuse are they going to use when it is realized that all parties gather intelligence. The nationalists have a lot to lose granted, such as basic civil rights often referred to by unionists as concessions.
There is a link between I.R.A. and Sinn Fein but there is also many links between all unionists parties, police and loyalist paramiliotaries, it just not admitted and the institutions are not going to divulge the set up at any cost,there has got to be otherwise people like Adair, and the Egyptian would have been locked up long ago on drug charges alone, not to mentiion paramilitary activity.
I for one am not concerned about the police force either, they, their fathers and grandfathers helped create and maintain the system with all it's inbred bigotry and hatred and with all of it's other faults. They have done nothing in their entire history to endear themselves to the nationalist community, the majority of them wore police uniforms while at work, and then wore orange sashes when not at work. and as such are a major part of the whole problem

I am truly sorry about the wheel chair, I really am believe ,and I am not trying to be glib in saying that my sister, my brother-in-law , four fairly close friends and one really close friend are all in Milltown cemetery. Another family member is blind for life thanks to a rubber bullet. I hope you believe me when I say I am truly sorry.

Good luck.

Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:19 PM

A united Ireland is going to have to include people of both traditions. For people who reject a united Ireland there's nothing contradictory about being bigoted and not trying to understand the problems and difficulties of the other side. But for those who believe in it there is never any justification for doing that, no matter what the provocation.

"Ireland" (that's the Mudcatter, not the country - it could be a confusing pseudonym is a thread like this) is trying to do that, and that deserves respect, even from those who might disagree with him on a few matters. He's a wise man to refuse to rise to the troll-poster's rhetoric.

The central thing, as I see, it is that so long as people feel threatened, and unwilling to trust the representatives of the state to protect them, it is impossible for the paramilitaries to cease to exist. If the existing organisation disbanded, a new one would rapidly appear, and the situation would be a lot worse. The whole logic of the peace process, whether this was openly admitted or not, was that with the end of the fear of the other side, the felt need for the paramilitaries would end.

I've intentionally said "the paramilitaries", because I think this analysis applies to the Loyalists as well. It's complicated by the fact that the Loyalists have a double fear - as well as the fear of violence from the other side, there is a fear of the prospect in a fairly short time of being in a minority, and of the political changes that that will mean. So for some of them I suspect that there is a feeling that renewed violence and civil disruption is their only hope of averting this movement towards a united Ireland.

Maybe a more realistic option so far as the IRA is concerned, would be not so much disbandment but rather a public affirmation that its role is no longer to be seen as seeking to achieve a united Ireland by force of arms, or even as standing ready to resume that campaign if need be, but purely to act as a defence force to protect nationalist communities in the event of a break down of civil order. They could even come up with some form of words for that, because things like that can help - they'd explain that while they were not disbanding, the IRA was "standing down" or "moving to a demobilised status", or "reassigning units to peacetime duties during the continuing emergency" or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:33 PM

I agree with what you say, we do not need these people on either side, I'm frustrated with SF for allowing this to happen. With those who take advantage of it for their own end,they of all people have nothing to offer to anyone except obstacle's to the GFA.

I only mentioned the w'chair in an attempt to emphasise with you, and to let you know that what I post is not from bitterness
because that eats the very soul and achieves nothing.

I think if the IRA were to disband it would put the loyalists and their supporters under the spotlight, what would their excuse for existing be when the IRA are not there. I do not mean they disband in the context of being defeated but more in the line of leading the way. And there is no one who wants to see the end of those who murder in the name of "the protestant community" more than me .

I am sorry for your loss,and beleive what you say, I do understand your frustration when someone comes along extolling the virtues of the police. I have met many dedicated officers men and women from both religions and also many who should not be allowed to wear a car park attendants uniform. They defend their attitude with the stories of how they lost fellow officers and friends, but that hatred has to be set aside, and not used as an excuse for more violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:10 PM

Thanks for the kind words McG of H, I do agree with what you say,but I beleive we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

The police and army would not take any sides, to go against their orders leaves them open to mutiny charges. They would have to face the wrath of those in-charge in England, also they would not have the ability to take on other regiments that would be sent in to restore order.

In dire straits the Irish army would be deployed to protect the interest of nat/rep, or the loyalists/unionists so there would be no real need for any paramilitaries at all.

We need to restore faith in the security forces, easier said than done, over the years they have earned the mistrust of both sides. That is why I advocate a mixed police force and in that respect we need each other not the paramilitaries who come at too high a price.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 07:11 AM

"Ireland", as the man says we ALL have our stories to tell, and as Jimmy C says they are better left unsaid.
"Ireland" I do hope you are reading Soldier 027`s testimony at the Bloody Sunday enquiry, this makes harrowing reading, the British Dirty tricks brigade have tried all in their power to intimidate this person from telling the truth.
As usual the truth will out, but it takes a bloody long time to wring the truth from the murdering scum who turned an unarmed Civil Rights March into a bloodbath.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 08:19 AM

Thanks again for your wisdom Kevin Mc.G.

Our bold fenian Guest has a bit o' the nerve calling *Ireland* the troll, here. But apparently *hasn't* got the gonads to sign up & introduce himself here as Ireland did.

Btw since the subject of a (not implausible) segregationist White Citizens Council/Orange Order analogy was introduced: sure; but then it wasn't the the Scots-Irish Presbyterians who conducted anti-draft riots & lynchings of blacks in NYC in 1864 rather than answer Father Abraham's call to fight against slavery. Those were my green "Catholic" (loosely speaking) ancesters by God; and *they* didn't have the testosterone to sign up, either. Or, more likely, the motivation. There's plenty of historical guilt to go around. Everywhere. Including, very obviously, in England.

Ard Mhacha, I think a careful reading shows that nobody here is trying to "make out a case for the Unionists". I gather we're all for a united 32-county Irish Republic. Some of us are just trying to make out the case that that can't come until there's a recognition of the good and the ill on both sides, east and west of the Bann.

As for Reagan and Bush, A.M.: *I* didn't vote fer 'em. Must have been some of the *other* Meander-thal Nuts over here who did. Of course in the case of Bush *II*, a plurality of us Wandering-Aengus crackpots voted for the other guy. The cardboard one. But he lost. In was those Tranfer Votes in Florida y'see. Disproportional Representation of Butterfly Ballots & Bushies y'know. Yes, Republican has a whole different meaning here. // But just in case you mean that we Yanks should mind our own business: yeah, we should. But why start Now? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM

Ard, you are 100% right, it is pathetic that all people in Ireland cannot tell the truth, but here is the difference between you and I, I am prepared to say when it's wrong it's wrong. How about you?

Why did the IRA need the gards uniform that they were found in?

You moan about American's, why not about NORAID?

My point is it is a bit of a oneway street,with you all take and no give. You condemn unionist for wrecking the GFA and ignore those who supported it, keep up your cheap shots it only shows you up for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM

Spot on re NORAID, Eire. / Many of its contributors, including friends of mine, are celticmisty-eyed romantics; but IrishMisty-*brained* too I fear. There's no longer (if ever) an excuse for Not Knowing. Funds for Relief; yeah. Relief of WHAT? Ammunition shortage, due to One Bullet being Put Permanently Beyond Use?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:11 AM

I hit the submit button.

We need people who are willing to whole heartedly admit their mistakes without the I done that because he did this rhetoric.

It is the only way forward admit all our wrong doings end the bitterness and make amends the best we can.

The Bloody Sunday trail is a joke because every one knows that the para's murdered these people, should I condemn the IRA for allowing that incident to swell their ranks and sending the rest of N.I. into 30 years of turmoil. I prefer to say I understand why such actions were taken and hope and pray we do not allow the same mistakes to happen again, it's called taking responsibility which is few and far between on all sides.

Truth and reconciliation is what's needed pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:57 AM

If it weren't for NORAID there would be no Macbride principles, no political influence for the Irish American Congressional caucus, and without those political pressures, no American involvement under Clinton and Mitchell. Without Mitchell, there would have been no peace process. I get pretty damn fed up with the British propaganda line that all Irish Americans who support the nationalist community are romantic idiots with no political knowledge and acumen regarding the north. And when people in forums like this one, where the vast majority of posters ARE bloody ignorant of the facts, start agreeing with the Britspeak propaganda line about Irish Americans, I know the Brits have won again. And again. And again. Just use the good ole "T" word with the word "Irish" and dumb fuck Americans fall for it every time.

Gandhi was a terrorist in the British colonial worldview too, folks. The terrorists are anyone who holds a dissenting point of view from the majoritarian politicians Ireland claims are "the mainstream", remember? Like Mr. Ireland says, if the fascist wing of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and the fascist Unionists and Loyalists, and even the bloody Labourites in power all say so, it must be true, right?

As to anyone who would claim in an internet forum to have been disabled by the IRA while involved in an argument where they are painting the IRA negatively, well...some of us know that tired old dirty trick. It is precisely that sort of behavior, along with the fact that this "Ireland" person has posted almost exclusively (and quite prolifically) about his anti-IRA political agenda since joining on 6 Oct, that fits my definition of a classic troll. He joins up so he can't be attacked for being anonymous (and therefore meet the idiotic definition of a troll in lesser Mudcat minds), acts according to the Mudcat friendly mode (which can be sussed out in under five minutes) and begins to ingratiate himself to a few people here, and then bloody claims he was put in a wheelchair by the IRA. Right.

Same old unionist shit one sees all the time on the internet. Somebody is trying to get the Mudcat to go down in flames over this old saw horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:17 AM

I believe we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

And I hope you're right, Ireland. But I's notbhard to understand how there are people who are frightened that you aren't, and their fears are real.

In the same way I'd hope you were right and the reformed police and the army could be relied on to protect everybody - but even if that's true, there are still many people who don't trust them, and that is real as well.

While those fears exist, the likely effect of a simple disbanding of the IRA could be to provide the opportunity for something else along the lines of the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA to build a basis of support, and present itself as the defenders of the community, but with a wider agenda of "continuing the armed struggle". And I am sure there are people within the existing IRAho would be up for that.

I think there should be a possibility of something short of "disbandment" at this time which would avoid that danger, and could also provide a way of getting rid of the irrelevant and counterproductive military gamesmanship on the part of the IRA (which is how the espionage strikes me, when it comes down to it - and that is not to trivialise the real and justifiable fears of prison officers and so forth).

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through places without water, seeking rest: and not finding, he says: I will return into my house whence I came out. And when he is come, he finds it swept and garnished. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself: and entering in they dwell there. And the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:16 PM

C`mon "Ireland",How about 027, have you read his testmony at the Bloody Sunday Enquiry, it is in all of the papers, remember this was the greatest recruiting agent for the Provos, the Para murderers showed how brave they were.
And I hope you wern`t near Stoneyford Orange Hall, remember all of that security forces data on Nationalists that was discovered, along with the rifles, and police and army uniforms, you do know where Stoneyford Orange Hall is?.
You have been sussed out a long time ago, you should be ashamed to boast of your time with a party of murderers. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:57 PM

The poster calling itself "Ireland" has been sussed out by some of us, it is true Ard Mhacha. Anyone who comes into a forum like this attempting to conflate Gerry Adams with Bin Laden, and the IRA with Al Qaida ought to be easy enough to suss out. His overuse of the word "terrorist" should be a dead give away too, but unfortunately, the Americans have been absolutely brainwashed to react to this word in the most reactionary way of late, that if someone comes in here and says "IRA/Sinn Fein" and "terrorist" in the same sentence, at least some of us know exactly where the conversation is headed.

Unfortunately, when such posters join Mudcat as members, and use a name intended to invoke solidarity with the cause of a united Ireland (when their actual intention is to destroy confidence in Sinn Fein and undermine their credibility for participating in the government), when such scum post politely, and disguise their hate agendas by attempting to speak in august tones, many people will fall for it. Every time. See above for the current examples of those who are actually buying what this "Ireland" poster has been saying.

Like I said before, have a look see at this trolls very brief posting history here in Mudcat. It is, with very few exceptions, a history of posting anti-republican garbage in political threads.

These are the sorts of posters Mudcat wishes to welcome into the fold?

No thanks. I'll stick with the guest appellation. I don't want to be part of any club that would have the likes of "Ireland" as a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 02:28 PM

You do realise Mc G of H that I treat these posts just as what they are a discussion with no agendas, plain and simple exchanging of view points that in the real world would be lost among other such conservations and carry the same weight.

No real changes will come about from what you, JimmyC ,pooka, Tim, Ard and I post, it is just our views nothing more, I see no need in getting hot under the collar and personally offensive. Ard has come up with some crackers, done and dusted, being one,I do not think deep down he is being vicious, it comes across as a laugh to me not a personal attack, can we not keep it this way?

If mudcatters do not want me to continue posting say so and I'll leave,I do not want to be used as an excuse for the vile personal attacks that guest takes upon him/herself to expose other mudcatters to.

Back to :

I believe we would never get to the state of civil breakdown.

Lets face it the event of a total civil breakdown and its consequences can only be looked at hypothetically, but that is not to say it is not the basis for a good discussion. We comment from our own perspective and in doing so if we agree all the time it would be boring.

What is the role of the Irish government within the GFA, my point is if the Irish army is seen as legitimate among Nat/Rep then they have to accept their authority, either as recognised legitimate army or as a UN peace keeping force. Either way there would be no room for any paramilitary group.

The other rep/nat terrorist groups would be neither here nor there as they do not have the same support that the IRA have and are not seen as being anywhere near as influential as the unionists see the IRA. If people do change from one to the other (IRA to RIRA) then I see that as being disingenuous about the peace process and the sticking to the old ways,in other words using the RIRA as a threat to get their own way.

Just as Adams asks unionists to trust him that should be reciprocated wrt to the unionist who are 100% pro GFA, the loyalist crowd would get short shrift if they are the only protagonists left, security resources which are split between the two sides could then concentrate on those who are a threat to the peace process.

I recognise asking people to trust each other is easier said then done someone has to take the first step.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:00 PM

Ard did you not see my post, you will get no argument from me on that issue. It is about time some one has the courage to tell the truth the man should have done it years ago and at least leave the families with some comfort. People moan about the money spent I say slap it up em if they had told the truth in the first place who knows what events it would have averted. 30 years is far too long to wait for these people to get the slurr taken off their loved one's, they were innocent, hope that's plain enough?

I know Stoneyford all right and have the same opinion of them as I do have of the IRA men caught up the airport road in a house taking arms training,they have no excuse for having that information and training. And as you would look at me as a unionist they do not have my support morally or otherwise. There are no incidents that the terrorists in this country on either side have done will you get me to condone or excuse, good try though.

In what way am I sussed Ard?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 03:09 PM

Ard, "And I hope you wern`t near Stoneyford Orange Hall, remember all of that security forces data on Nationalists that was discovered, along with the rifles, and police and army uniforms, you do know where Stoneyford Orange Hall is?."

Tell me this Ard, who made the discovery, the tooth fairy?

Any credit for those who took the arms out of the hands of these people? I know your answer "they should have not gave them the weapons in the first place".

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:03 PM

Hypothethical, as you say, Ireland. (And don't be fazed by the noises off.) But people have long memories, and their memories wouldn't need to be that long to remember what happened back in 1969.

Whether you think they'd be better to trust the British Army or the Police, or rely on help coming across the border from the republic, isn't the point. There isn't that trust and that reliance, and that means that if the existing IRA were taken out of the picture there'd be a new one, and that would be no improvement from anyone's point of view. (Apart from those people who would welcome a new war, more especially those who might see that as a way of averting developments which they see as leading inevitably to the end of partition.)

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

Can anyone tell me what the 82 year old IRA campaign has achieved? All I can see is "yes you can have a united Ireland if the majority in NI vote for it". That's the same as in England, Scotland and Wales where there have been no 4000+ deaths and no "liberation struggle". How can you have a liberation struggle in an area, NI, where the majority, the unionists, believe that they are already liberated?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

"Ireland"   I have to laugh when I type your Mudcat name, Sandy Row would be apt.

                      I was confronted time out of number by uniformed football thugs, your mates, bully boys who knew they could get away with murder and did.
You come on here posing as cross between Ghandi and Mother Theresa, which one of your relatives in the UDA-UVF OR ANY of the other loyalist thuhs did you pass on information to?.
We all know that your mob and the RUC were passing on data on Nationalists, now tell me it didn`t happen as you most likely will,I see some of your comrades name on the UVF roll of honour in Portadown, they were members of The Ulster Defence Regiment who flagged down the Miami Show Band, and murdered all of the Band bar one, you were all one of a kind. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM

Sure Ard I get a laugh at your posts too, so we are just about even.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 05:43 PM

BTW, Ireland's reference to the show bands has been the only purportedly musical reference he has yet made in his now 64 posts as "Ireland". Combining that with chilling wee reference with the "I was put in a wheelchair by the IRA" and it becomes quickly apparent we've a real sicko in our midst.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhaca
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 06:00 AM

I have just been reading again the evidence of Soldier 027, He states that during the shooting and killing his two Para mates on either side of him were firing into the crowd and kept telling him to fire, he kept on looking for a likely target such as a petrol-bomber or a gunman, but he failed to spot either, just a milling crowd of people diving to the ground or runing for shelter.
He also stated that afterwards in the Barracks the Paras had a party to celebrate and found it all great fun.
Bye the way, this ex-Para has been under Police protection for the past two years in case his Para friends follow up on their threats to him.
Hope this gives you a laugh soldier boy, the Paras found it hilarious. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 02:33 PM

I had to read it twice. "The IRA's 82-year old campaign". I was a young man way back in the 1960's (we made our own amusement then). I was more obsessed with politics then than I am now but I was not aware of the existence of the IRA. To call that organization moribund would be giving it credit for too much life. True, there was in '66 a commemoration on the Falls Rd of the 1916 rebellion. It was small and retrospective. I wasn't there myself. I was in London at a CND(Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament) rally in Trafalgar Square. And so were a lot of my friends including one who is now a leading member of Sinn Féin. At that time he, like me, if he had been aware of the existence of the IRA, would have regarded it as an irrelevance. So who breathed life into the IRA? The Unionist Government and its armed wings, the RUC and the B-Specials. The demands of the Civil Rights Movement, which at the time I found laughably unambitious, were met with a fury that to me was totally incomprehensible. People who were asking for minor reforms were battered and bludgeoned. The police rioted and the people defended themselves. Their houses were burned. People were killed. The argument that the state of Northern Ireland could not be reformed had a certain force. And, as the writing on gable walls said, "Out of the ashes of '69 rose the Provies". The response of the Unionist Government to the civil disturbances that followed was by now more predictable. Internment.   In other words people from nationalist communities were imprisoned for an indefinite period without trial. Some were tortured. Nobody from any loyalist gang was interned, of course. And so on. This was the work of the Unionist Party which had been in power for half a century, the party which David Trimble now leads. The closest that Trimble has ever got to acknowledging that there was ever anything wrong was to say that perhaps Northern Ireland was cold place for nationalists. And now he assures us that if only the IRA would go away that he might start to live up to his obligations under the Good Friday Agreement. He might even remember that he was one of those who negotiated that agreement.

And of course he is supported by that well-known peace lover, Tony Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 03:15 PM

You have me a bit confused here, belfast. I noticed that you're the writer of a song about the Belfast Shipyards. I thought that your sympathies might be pro-unionist. Maybe I'm being simple-minded and things over there are even more complicated than I imagined. Maybe it's none of my business. And I've just caught the reference to the Incredible String Band. Cuiouser and curiouser.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Oct 02 - 04:28 PM

Belfast, sorry, that should be 79 year old campaign.

The campaign of the "IRA" has been continuous since the "end" of the Civil War in Spring 1923. There have been deaths, real human beings laid in coffins, often of "IRA" members, with tricolours, Mass Cards, etc, on board:
often of policemen, north and south, Protestant and Catholic, in the 1920s, the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s and the 1960s to date.                                                                                                                                       I could post the facts, they are well known. However you might prefer to read quite sympathetic histories of the "IRA" by Tim Pat Coogan, J.Bowyer Bell, Uinseann MacEoin, Ed Molonley and the many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Jimmy C
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:50 AM

Belfast, you are spot on. I was at the 1916 commemoration. It was a very peaceful parade, up the Falls Road to Casement Park. You have, by yuor post augmented what I have said in many posts about the North of Ireland, that is that, the I.R.A. were practically non-existant. There were a few incidents around the border from time to time, but they were few and far between. Sure there were people like Joe Cahill who would show up at the odd ceiligh and such, but the truth is that I would not have known how to go about joining the I.R.A. I did not know any one person in my whole district ( New Lodge Road) who was a member or anyone even remotely connected to any republican group. It was as you said, the actions and the behavour of the police and the british soldiers that forced the catholic community to look for protection somewhere else, and the only option open to them was to turn to the only group they had ever heard of, and that was the I.R.A. This opening presented the I.R.A. with a opportunity to start recruiting, something which would have been unnecessary if the police and army had done their job in a non-partisan manner. They did not and the I.R.A. took advantage of this and moved in. I know many people all members of the I.R.A. who before 1970 had never even heard of 1916 or 1798, and who actually knew very little about Ireland. All they wanted to do was have a chance of earning a decent living and most had no interest in politics, that all changed, and in short order the whole community was republican, thanks to the british army and the police, they did what the I.R.A. could not have acccomplished in a normal situation, they made it necessary to be a nationalist, they made it fashionable to be a nationalist, they made it desirable to be Irish. A Terrible Beauty was reborn.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 04:11 AM

Well. Since I (naively, it seems) began this thread I guess I can't complain, so I won't.

However, as the threadstarter I *will* grant myself a dispensation from the Mudcat don't-feed-the-trolls rule which newbie Ireland is now wisely following with strict military discipline; and chomp on our gentle GUEST's deep-diving Crankbait, as follows:

Oh so the NORAID take *is* drying out, is it? Must be, judging by your shrill yelps, there, Sir Roger. Listen, bold Theobold, it doesn't take a Brit propagandist to know a stupidarsed American-Irish romantic falling for the SF/IRA/Terrorist party line when you see one; and this here yankmick has seen plenty more than one. (Put THAT together in one sentence, Jimmy Joyce.) "Gandhi was a terrorist in the British colonial worldview too"; oh now *that*'s a neat Thought Experiment, Einstein. The International Jews don't like Our Lord Jesus either; therefore, Arafat is the Prince of Peace. Give us a break, Mahatma McGuinness. By the way, it's "al Qaeda". Get the spelling right would yez; else you might be Sussed Out by yo'mama Osama. Hmm, compiling a little dossier on Mudcatters' posts are you? Oh, the horror of suppressing "...anyone who holds a dissenting point of view...", to be *sure*!! Put the research on a diskette up at Stormont why don't ye. Y'know, for the lads' Mailing List. // Fook off, Jeremiah O'Donovan. Your time can be better spent. Johnny Adair wants to discuss strategy & tactics with you. Common cause, yer know. // Oh yeah and one other thing. Let's not get personal, OK? This is a high-minded Forum, here.
***************************************************************
Ireland: no, don't stop posting. Maintain discipline. (Me, I'm a Civilian, what do I care? :) Pay attention to McGrath. / Do put in some Music from time to time though. It helps.

Ard M.: You're a longtime, knowledgeable Member & I'm still relatively new & unlearned; & I do respect your point of view, though mine differs re methods if not goals. Seriously. / But settle down a bit could you? Cut yer man some slack. He's sincere I believe; and he's trying hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 06:02 AM

Jimmy: re IRA history,we're both right. I don't have the energy to write up the whole thing but an outline will indicate that the capaign was continuous, dormant at times when forced to be, either though lack of public support or through the Free State's'Emergency'(World War II} iron fist policy of execution and internment, but always there.                     

On 25 August 1939 five people were killed by an IRA bomb in Coventry, England, all civilians, including a man of 81 and a boy of 15. The "Ould Alarm Clock" song refers to the English Campaign of that time. Two IRA men Barnes and McCormack were hanged. They were very idealistic and brave men but they died long before their time. The actual bomber was never caught and was known to be still alive in the 1980s.            

In the 40s lots of IRA men were executed by the Free Sate (one, George Plant from Tipperary, was a Protestant). In the North only young Tom Williams, age 19, was executed in 1942. Joe Cahill was sentenced to death for the same "incident" in which an RUC man, Patrick Murphy, was shot dead, leaving a widow and nine children. Cahill was reprieved.

In the Border Campaign of 1956-62, 12 IRA, including Sean South, Feargal O'Hanlon, and 5 men blown up by their own bomb in a field at Edentubber, Co. Louth,and 6 RUC men were killed.

I agree with your views on the reasons for the resurgence of the IRA in '69/70. (read Moloney on this).

Two new very interesting news items today.

1. The Real IRA prisoners in Portlaoise Jail are reported as having admitted to the Omagh bomb, that it severely damaged the Republican cause, and that they favour the disbandment of the Real IRA.

2. A report on BBC NI teletext today states; "The UUP will'die on its feet'unless it modernises and reshapes its membership, its Chairman has said.

At the Party Conference in Londonderry [BBC spelling, not mine!], James Cooper accused the Orange Order of rebuffing modernisation efforts for their own ends.

Mr. Cooper said the Party had failed to deliver on restricting the power of the Order within the Party. 'I am convinced that this Party should not allow one particular interest group to prevent progress' he said".

This train of thought is almost certainly influenced by Norman Porter's book "Rethinking Unionism: an alternative vision for Northern Ireland"(1996). Porter is a re-constructed, constructive unionist, who advocated both "civic unionism" and "civic republicanism" and much else, especially the UUP severing its links with the Orange Order. He's a philosopher and the book is a heavy read, was for me at least, but worth the effort. Its taken a long time for his ideas to find their way in public onto the unionist agenda but as we know political change in NI is difficult and slow.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: belfast
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

I have just re-read my own posting and I've realized why I seldom contribute to these debates. I tend to lose my air of light-heartedness. This may be pedantic but the word "continuous" means, as a rule, uninterrupted, without a break. To say that something was been continuous except when there was a break is like saying that something was absolutely and totally black except when it was white. What was continuous was the campaign waged by the Unionist Government against its own citizens. It was a very successful campaign. They controlled what one English journalist, in a rare look at what was happening here, called "a political slum". They even made sure that nothing that happened here could be discussed at Westminster. And the British Government . . . ah, to hell with it. I'm fed up with the sound of my own voice.

But, by the way, Ed Moloney's book - if it's a secret history, what's it doing in a book available in all bookshops? And who told Ed these secrets. And how did he know what to believe and what was spoof?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Brian F. Hannon
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:27 AM

The Biggest Mess in Northern Ireland is Lough NEAGH where the Local Tribe of Native IRISH Fisher People have been Without Their Collective Fishing Rights from the Time of Cromwell . One of his Fellow Ethnic Cleanser War Lords Sir Arthur Chichester during a Nine Years WAR became aware of The Wealth of Lough Neagh from the fishfull River Bann filled every late Winter by Vast Hordes of Atlantic Salmon . For which his Heir got a Royal Charter in Year 1661 what DELETED all Irish Rights in it TILL DATE . While the LORDS and their YEOMEN Lackeys were busy up in the Weirs on The BANN Catching and So Preventing The Salmon reaching our nets in LOUGH NEAGH we survived as we were just ignored and scarcely tolerated to harvest the Coarse Fish for Food and Subsistence Economy . It is at us the Aspiration to the Return of Our Forefathers Patrimony in Strasbourg . The British Legal System has FAILED Twice to curtail the out - of - Date FEUDAL Rights of An Absentee English Land LORD Family in year 1910 and 1964 to provide Equity to The Rightless .Not only that but they also re cemented The Charter We dont intend to go there again . Even The Irish LAND Commission Missed Us around year 1900 not even allowing us The Right to buy An Acre of Barren Shore per boat family to spread our Nets and haul up our boats and run our long lines . They took the Land by buying out the Landlords and selling it to the FARMERS right to the Edge of The Water making us a sub class even amongst our own people . Are we not Indigenous People Entitled to Indigenous Rights .Ask Doctor Julian Burger of The Indigenous Section of The U. N. In Geneva . See "Toome EEL Fishery" on this Forum .

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 11:32 AM

Pooka, I notice that neither Irish nor Irish American posters are rushing to agreement with you. Could it be that your perpetual, self-proclaimed ignorance about the north has less to do with ignorance than it does with stubborn, blind allegiance to a particular mindset about Ireland and the Irish?

Just a thought. One would think that if you had read and absorbed even half of the threads on the north which you obsessively participate in, you'd have a learned a bit more about the Troubles by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:20 PM

Well said and fair enough, republican Guest. Can we just add my posting history to the diskettes and call it even? Ya sussed me out, man. In my ignorance I do indeed attend services at the Parish of Perpetual Self-Proclamation, a small Gnostic sect advocating Peace, Justice, Concurrent Majoritarianism, and Imitation of Deer Standing Jacklighted in the Middle of the Road. :)

I think most, or a lot, of us on both Pondsides and Bannbanks have "a particular mindset about Ireland and the Irish". Mine does include giving all of the former back to all of the latter (apologies to McCartney). Hopefully none of us need be stubborn and blind. (Nor, any more of us crippled.) In truth I've read & absorbed *just about* half of the threads you referenced; and I *have* learned a bit more--more than a bit more--than I used to know. Including, from you. Seriously.

So, thanks. Your Ould Alarum Clock (Hi Tim!) set me off; but I value your info none the less.

Obsessively yours,
The Pooka

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 01:32 PM

Thread Drifts South: On second thought, Eire has just voted for the Treaty of Nice. Is this Nice, or Not? I gather a bigger turnout than Round One turned the trick. So to speak. What say yez?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 02:00 PM

I, for one, have found this more educational, historically speaking, than most of the former threads on the "Troubles" and I've been here for almost all of them, I think.

I appreciate hearing from you who live there, or have lived there and hearing the very differing perspectives. I used to think I knew something about it all, but I lost that arrogance a couple or so years ago.

I would say that I don't like anyone painting with a broad brush, though, and just register that not ALL Americans are brainwashed by the Shrub and his War of Obfuscation. We do not see a "terrorist in every pot" and have been lodging our protests in many differnet ways. We need for the international community to keep up their pressure to avert this bullshit, too, as it lends that much more support to our dissent.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

I just reread this thread, and one argument leaps out at me. I have no answers, only this question:

If armed struggle/terrorism (depending upon one's point of view) isn't going to achieve the objective of a just and equitable society, and the political process isn't going to achieve the objective of a just and equitable society, then what will?

What happens when the politicians don't allow justice and peace to take hold, despite the will of the majority of the citizenry to see it happen?

Not only is this the most relevant question to be asking today in Northern Ireland, but it is the most relevant question to be asking in Britain and the US as well, in regards to attacking Iraq, and in the Middle East regarding the West Bank and Gaza.

So, to those of you who keep screaming at us that "terrorism is not the answer"...please tell us what IS the answer? If neither the soldiers/terrorists OR the politicians will not bend to the will of the people, what are the people to do to defend themselves against this political tyranny?

After a decade of failures by the politicians to bring about the justice and peace negotiated and renegotiated in the Irish Good Friday Agreement, and the Gaza/Jericho Agreement, the Wye River Accord, the Palestinian-Israeli Interim Agreement On The West Bank & The Gaza Strip, etc. what are reasonable, well intentioned, people who are suffering under an occupying force to do to rid themselves of the tyranny? What are the people to do when their leaders who are peacefully working to rid society of violence and injustice, are assassinated, or removed from power arbitrarily by the occupying force, as we are seeing happen over and over again in Ireland, in the Middle East, in Columbia, etc.

The new strategy of the permanent member states of the Security Council of the UN, is diplomatic and political negotiations. The problem with that strategy is it has failed nearly everywhere it has been used. So what now?

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:45 PM

From to-days Irish News 21st October,
An independent public inquiry into the murder of Solicitor Pat Finucane is inevitable and could be annnounced within the next few months, the SDLP`s Alex Atwood has claimed.
Mr Atwood said the report is expected to confirm "peoples worst fears about the conduct of elements of Special Branch [RUC] and British Intelligence Service.
Mr Atwood added, "and it`s not just the murder of Pat Finucane. There were a series of murders around that time that certainly involved The British Army`s Forces Research Unit and had the fingerprints of Special Branch [RUC] over some or all of them.

The Stevens Inquiry report is due to be published in November.
Later this month the findings of an independent review into Special Branch, ordered by the Policing Board, is also for publication.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:46 AM

Taken from http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7196
Opinions on Bloody Sunday from some one who was there:

IT'S NOW 30 years since the day they call 'Bloody Sunday' happened. The inquiry is up and running and already it is the most expensive in British legal history and it may not even be past the halfway point yet. Some say it will cost £100 million; others say that amount won't even look at it. What price the truth, they say. The revisionists who want the world to believe their story present it like this: Catholics were marching for their civil rights; the British government was determined to teach them a lesson so it sent in the Paras. The Paras did what Paras do best and 13 innocent young men lay dead after a peaceful march. The unionists feel guilty now, so they keep their heads down hoping it will all blow over, and the nationalists will give over whingeing and moaning, accept the new inquiry and get on with it.

Well, so much for wishful thinking.

Now for the real world.

In the four weeks before that day in Londonderry, the following violence was carried out by the various factions of the IRA: nine separate bomb attacks on commercial and security force premises; six separate shooting incidents, including an 80-minute gun battle, gelignite and nail-bomb attacks. A robbery occurred where 157 British army uniforms were stolen and several soldiers were wounded. Just three days before the march two RUC officers were callously murdered less than a mile from where the march was due to start.

This is not an exhaustive list but it does give some idea of what was going on when Martin McGuinness was second-in-command of the Provisional IRA in Londonderry, as he has recently confirmed. Disorder There was, of course, disorder and violence in many other parts of Northern Ireland and internment had been used as an unwieldy measure against republicans.

It was in this context that the march occurred, with many soldiers fearing for their lives as they prepared for what they believed was going to be (and turned out to be) a violent confrontation. Thirty years on, there are going to be hundreds of witnesses called to give evidence regarding what they saw, heard and did on that day. Given the thousands on the march, and the hundreds of soldiers on duty, is there going to be anyone anywhere who has not only the razor-sharp memory going back to that time but who was exactly in the right position at just the right time to see enough to be certain, not only as to what happened, but to relate the motives of those soldiers who fired their rounds?

Of course, McGuinness has already said he will not be naming any other members of the IRA. Openness apparently is to be demanded of the Paras but not of the Provos. The IRA was actively carrying out bomb and gun attacks right throughout January, and we are expected to believe that they suddenly took rest and recuperation on this particular day, even when some republicans have had to concede that, at least, one civilian gunman was seen and photographed at an early stage in the day's proceedings.

There is unionist anger at the inquiry, its cost and its duration. There is even more anger at the fact that it has continued for two years up to this point, and its proceedings have been summarised every day of its sittings on local radio and television. Local newspapers carry extensive coverage of witness evidence each week. It goes on and on and on and on.

This is happening while at the same time there is no inquiry into the events that occurred at that time and since that have allegedly involved the person who is at present the Minister in Northern Ireland with responsibility for the education of our children:

Martin McGuinness. Civil rights The demand, they said, was for civil rights. One of their leaders said at around the time of Bloody Sunday: "When we get our civil rights there will be no revenge". Thirty years later, what has been the result of that campaign? The west bank of Londonderry, where the march took place, is now 99 per cent Roman Catholic - 65,000 people with fewer than 1,000 of them Protestants. Thousands of jobs have been created in recent years across the whole city, which is about 25 per cent Protestant, but only about 10 per cent of them for that community.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:27 AM

http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7200

Some eye witness accounts:

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:23 AM

So your conclusion Bloody Sunday was completely justified. You really are a bigot of the worst kind. Why not also include the work of Don Mullan: Bloody Sunday Massacre in Northern Ireland, The Eyewitness Accounts, or Fulvio Grimaldi (the Italian photographer who captured much of what happened on the day on camera and who the Paras tried to shoot aswell) Blood in the Street. Or better still the testimony of Soldier 027 who was there that day as well except he couldn't find a justifiable reason to kill anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:46 AM

Did you bother to go to the site Den?

If you had you would have realised that the above post was not my words, but the account of that man who was there that day. Would you call him a bigot. I wouldn't I'd call him some one who is being honest till it hurts.

If you had bothered to follow the second link you would have found the accounts of eye witnesses, none of my words, but a harrowing read which protrays the horror of what went on.

Most importantly if you had bothered to go to the site you would have found a modicum of hope. The man who wrote the article was a pen pal to a woman from Liverpool at that time, they fell out over the unjust actions of the paras, but met up again years after and now live together.

Here is the clue den that they are not my words right at the onset of the post,
Taken from http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7196 Opinions on Bloody Sunday from some one who was there:

You call me a bigot,from what view point did you reach this conclusion, ignorance,the precursor to bigotry. Your that bigoted when the argument is turned around given from a different perspective and is still in your favour you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM

"Ireland" is a troll. He/she calls himself/herself "Ireland" to make it appear as if they love Ireland, and then posts incredibly inflammatory and unsubstantiated stuff from a loyalist terrorist/B special sort of perspective.

The best thing to do is ignore the posts to these threads from the member "Ireland". They are just being mean spirited, and trying to start a flame war.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:26 AM

BTW, for those who don't know, the link Ireland provides above is to an article written by Gregory Campbell, a member of Paisley's party. He is one of the party leaders intent on destroying the GFA.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:31 AM

Guest Den, go to the Derry Journal site, http://www.derryjournal.com/bloodysunday/fullbsmain.asp?DJID=7207 I'm not point scoring the site is an interesting read it has accounts from those who were there. It tells of Jimmy McGovern's drama 'Sunday' and of the relatives of some of the people killed that day who protrayed them in the drama.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:32 AM

BTW, the DUP's paramilitary organization is the LVF, the worst murderers in the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 10:39 AM

And people might like to read a bit more about the UDP/LVF terrorist campaign from the BBC here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/factfiles/lvf.shtml

Like I said, "Ireland" has a definite agenda which looks an awful lot like the UDP/LVF agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Northern Ireland Mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 11:19 AM

I read Ireland's contributions with a grain of salt (sometimes with even a larger quantity), but I appreciate another voice in the threads about (Northern) Ireland. Ireland, don't let you be bullied into silence. I wish some posts from the other side had a bit of your good will and your ability to differentiate.

Wolfgang