BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg

Subject: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 Lis
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 05:27 AM

I wondered if any of you have obtained permission for extensions, or conservatories on Grade Two listed buildings and how you achieved it.
Is each planning application taken as an individual case, or is there a general rule of thumb?
Thanks
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 Lis
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 07:37 AM

My advice would be that, when dealing with any type of planning permission that isn't basic stuff, give your local planning department a call and discuss it with them first. They usually appreciate it when you ask their advice. They may even come out and have a look and give some indicators on what would be acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 Lis
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:18 AM

Thanks the leveller, this seems to be the best idea, but I just wondered if anyone had gone through the exercise.
It looks as though they prefer a discussion which makes them happier that you are not going to rip the place apart and create a legal action at the end of it.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 Lis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 09:34 AM

I did enquire once about a place I was thinking of buying.

It is a good idea to use an architect/agent who has experience of listed buildings and is not going to specify a B&Q conservatory.

The presumption will be against the granting of permission.

Of course the standard waivers in the general development order are not applicable.

It is likely to be helpful if you can produce evidence that there has previously been an outhouse/conservatory/orangery/gazebo preferably where you want one but otherwise at least attached to the building.

The one I was after was Murrells, in Gravesend, allegedly the oldest continuously inhabited dwellinghouse in Gravesend. The incised date on it of 1687 is almost certainly the date of a renovation or extension, as the roof interior shows the remains of a rather nice Kingpost and Queenpost roof.

Unfortunately we could not sell our own house fast enough - well, I say "unfortunately" but there was a huge amount to be done.

A Victorian extension appeared to have a full-height but 4.5 inch single brick end wall that was badly bowed. The main roof was of dubious stability with broken internal timbers. There was an agricultural extension to the rear largely of breezeblock with a catslide roof. The oak timberframe appeared to be held together mostly with Victorian 3/8 inch mild steel angle brackets and huge woodscrews so the original timberframe interlocks were probably no longer sound. Previous owner had fixed things up his own way with modern cement that was likely to result in differential stresses, and had put "DiY" quality internal partitioning in to divide bedrooms. The cellar appeared once to have been a cow-byre as the mangers were still on the wall, but the floor above was held up by a modern brick pillar in the middle and the roof height was about 5 feet, so there must have been infill in part, and the animal entrance had been filled in - probably under the breezeblock bits, where now ran a rats nest of heating pipes for a very elderly heating system that had two separate boilers, one gas and one oil.

The main chimney was no longer gas-tight and the fireplace in the Victorian extension had been closed off.

The Aga had been disconnected and a fishtank installed over it, probably between the wars.

Oh yes, and the waterproofing from underground damp appeared to be a clay bed that now had holes through it for the central heating pipes.

God how I wanted that house, but it was not going to be a sensible move!

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:10 PM

Sounds like you would still have been working on it now Richard.
We have been looking at properties in the Woodbridge area , but not getting too excited about it, for the reasons you have given. If it happens it will, but it will not be the end of the World if it does not.
We have six English Setters and two cats so our requirements are difficult. Roadside houses are not suitable.We have seen a property that would be suitable, but is very small and needs work done to it, but not as a matter of priority. It would appear that it is possible for extensions ,but the different from the original building ie. wood clad as opposed to the lump clay style construction.
House sales are very difficult at the moment and we have had many time wasters coming to view without their house even being on the market.I have two possible purchasers both with houses to sell, but like you I very much doubt if the property we are interested in will be available when/if our house is sold.A phone call could change that of course.
Thanks for your posting Richard ,much appreciated.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM

I have renovated several houses in the past - the only Grade 2 being a barn conversion and I did, successfully put a second floor on it although the planning consent was a bit long-winded (digging out the foiundations to prove they'd ben underpinned). For the last eight years I've been renovating a 1847 station house on which I have put a 2-storey extension. The biggest problem was matching the brick - the originals came from a brickyard in the village, long since closed. I eventually found a localish company that made handmade bricks that were a close match but when they arrived they weren't an exact match as the originals were very soot-stained. Eventually, we discovered an easy answer - lay the new bricks with the reverse facing outward with the firing marks showing. Brilliant match - you can hardly tell the difference.

The point I'm making is that much is possible if you're inventive and take the planners along with you and make use of reclaimed materials where possible. It's never easy and certainly not cheap but it can be very satisfying. Best of luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM

Forgot to add - your biggest problem is likely to be finding a builder who can do the work in a sympathetic manner. I've had to get rid of several in the past half-way through projects.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:35 PM

Hah - we bred pointers at the time!

You might find it easier to get permission for a non-attached outbuilding, designating it stable or garage, and then later turning it into dogcommodation, maybe with a stable lad's room over - then link the two with a conservatory court.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 12:45 PM

Leveller, the interesting thing about the property we are interested in is that it has what looks to be an original tiled building at right angles to the property that could quite easily be restored by me.It is all there with the typical East Anglian roof tiles but in need of renovation. Ideally to be joined to the house if they would allow it plus a conservatory to finish it off. I think they will like the renovation idea as it is not mentioned as being listed ,but looks of similar age. The joining and conservatory I am not sure as to what their reaction would be.
Sounds like you are a master craftsman ,good luck wit the project
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM

You will probably get permission to restore the outbuilding if you mention no more.

Wait until the snoops have finished inspecting - then do the interior without telling them. Deepshit if you get caught, but you are likely to get away with it. Never let them in to inspect unless they have court order and bailiff. That's what the former owner of Murrells used to do and he got away with it for decades. And of course the council will have no resources for the next five years.

Then put "temporary" roof over the intervening space in triple-wall polycarbonate - "logstore" or similar if challenged.

Wait until they are used to that then infill the rear walls - get the drift?

Risky, but might work.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: mouldy
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:35 AM

I'm in the process of buying a Grade 2 listed stone built Georgian town house in Belford, Northumberland, and I am waiting for the survey report. It has an extension, which was, by the look of it, done before the place was listed, as it removed a tall arched window to do it. My guess is about 30 years ago. There are already plans passed to knock it down and build a new one, but I am not sure I need that, and would like to work with what is there.

It has one or two problems that are obvious and need addressing, and I'm praying the survey doesn't notice much more! I don't know how extensive the listing is, and I had already thought of getting somebody from the planning dept out to tell me what I can and can't do - such as altering the living room fireplace to take a stove, and enlarging the (original) loft access, so that you can actually get into it!

I loved the house on sight, and really want to take care of it. Luckily, from the sale of my present house, I should have more than enough to deal with it.

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 04:03 AM

N'land building inspectors are a pretty clued-up and helpful bunch, Andrea, and I certainly wouldn't suggest trying to slide things in that haven't been passed or do things first and get approval afterwards. They can (and have) made people demolish things that weren't approved.

On the other hand if they can see you're trying to do TLC to a historic building and have a good idea of what you're doing they'll let you get on with it.

My C17 farmhouse isn't listed, but once the inspectors realised we were trying to improve and conserve what was there (and remove the C20 bodges), they stopped interfering except for the things they have to inspect.

They seem a bit keen on sound insulation though.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 04:08 AM

The ones near London are usually jobsworths.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:05 AM

Alan, I would certainly advise you against following Richard Bridges suggestions from his post at 3:12 yesterday. If you do so you will almost certainly be served with an enforcement notice to "remove and restore" at your own expense.

Listed building applications are generally considered on their own merits and while, in general, the presumption will be to refuse, if you can demonstrate that what you propose would be sympathetic to the original listed building you may obtain permission.

Most DC offices will provide a pre-app advice service (probably for a fee - my own office charges £60) and will need you to draw up a plan and provide samples of materials.

Subject: RE: BS: Extensions/Conservatories to Grade 2 List bldg
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 08:39 AM

Thanks for the advice WM and from Richard.
There is a good list of do's and don'ts regarding listed buildings put out by Herts DC and even painting your house requires permission. There are hefty fines if you violate the Grade 2 building regulations and the extra cost of putting it back as it was.I will definitely go and have a chat with the Planning Authority before I purchase, subject to the sale of this one.
Al