BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

I hear ya, Kat. Despite the fact that we'd be going in different directons with this information, I'm not convinced. This is all very interesting, in theory. But I still haven't seen a link that shows me concrete proof that GC HAS purchased adverts on Rush's show.

Bec

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:55 AM

Let me pose this question- maybe someone will know for sure. It seems like, in buying broadcast advertising, a customer can pay a premium for their ad to appear on a particular program, or they can "float" and their ads will appear wherever there's empty space. So, could it not be that Guitar Center bought an ad from a particular radio station, without necessarily intending it to air during Rush's show? Or perhaps they wanted it to air at a particular time of day, that just happened to be during that show.

I used to work at a newspaper, and the policy was that advertising didn't affect editorial content didn't affect advertising. It was a pretty progressive paper, and I know that several of the advertisers didn't agree with a lot of the things we did! But they knew that our product reached the people who would be likely to shop with them.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

Yes, Kim, an advertiser can buy ROS, run of schedule ads and they will run in a random pattern, BUT no radio station in their right mind would let anything run, except premium paid ads, during such a *popular* show as Rush's. For that, they would get top dollar and the sponsorship would be exclusive to those who signed the contract and paid.

Radio is not immune to the pressures of advertisers, either. We once ran a news story about a big advertiser's son getting drunk and running his car into the plate glass window of a furniture store. We had to pull the story as the parents threatened to pull their adverts. IT was a real dilemma between the monetary support of the salesperson who had worked long and hard to get the account, the station which needed the revenue of such heavy hitters and the integrity of the newspeople who wanted to run even more of the story. There were several of us who were saddend when the management chose dollars over that integrity.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

Kat's right. No media buyer would ever let you think that your float time would ever be during a huge market show like that. You need to specifically ask for those slots and you pay a premium. (In my pre-child Robert Service-type days, I interned for a media buyer at an ad agency.)

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:59 AM

Well, that's what I thought... I was just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I do think it's true, though, that advertising on a particular show may not necessarily reflect the business owner's personal opinions. It may be a shrewd business decision more than anything else, if the show's demographics are what they're after. Not saying it's right or wrong - the business world is often its own little animal.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:11 AM

OK, folks. Economics and Business Administration 101 time. Businesses make money selling product to folks. They generally pick various target markets. They then pick stations, papers, and media outlets, to get the message to that audience. Obviously they saw something in Rush's demographics that appealed to that need. I usually go to the local Guitar Center when I need something quick, or if I am after music software, or equipment rack's, ....... paraphanelia stuff. I never buy instruments from them, as the prices are nothing special, and the level of knowledge of the sales staff is run of the mill, there is virtually no after sale support, and luthier is a word in the dictionary to most of them. Add to the price issue, and you see what I mean. I suppose if I saw something that was a good value I would consider it, but I just don't go there often. It is usually when I can't make it to Elderly.

As far as Rush goes.........

There is not one soul on this forum who is more opposed to most of Rush's positions. I find him to be, for the most part, shallow, demagogic, and lacking substance in terms of his policy views. Conversely, I find him very entertaining and witty, in terms of his image. And in terms of self promotion, he is a wizard. This is a man that was a miserable failure in most of his ventures in life. But when he realized he was onto something with his talkshow, he exploited masterfully. He understood that Americans could care less about any facts except those which reinforced their preconceived notions about "how things should be". Folks these days, Democrat and Republican (USA sense), Conservative and Liberal, just don't seem to like true, enlightened debate. They prefer to let themselves get comfortable with what's in front of them, and then search for folks that will make them comfortable with that. Rush is the poster child for this distressing trend. We Americans are the worst of the bunch when it comes to this. We tend toward shallow, "make us feel good about ourselves", kind of media. We ignore the lessons of history that teach us that when the citizens of great powers start to believe that their way is the only way, it is the beginning of the end. Soon we begin to alibi our actions in the world, by mouthing things like "We are a God fearing nation" as if to imply that God only favors us. We begin to take unilateral action, as if the rest of the world should simply be quiet and submit to our obvious economic, intellectual, and moral authority. Within, the loyal opposition begins to fragment into factions of a thousand different viewpoints, hence weakening itself and leaving significant population groups voiceless in any effective way. Examples of this can be seen in any number of historical regimes. Greece, Rome, Germany, and on and on.

I would never boycott them because they advertise with Rush. Smart move on their part. I don't do much shopping there, because I prefer quality shops with great staff and service.

I would rather beat Rush in the arena of ideas. If you don't like Rush, and decry his popularity, then look in the mirror. The problem is that he appeals to a lot of folks. It is not his fault that we haven't found an effective voice. It is ours.

A liberal Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

"I would rather beat Rush in the arena of ideas. If you don't like Rush, and decry his popularity, then look in the mirror. The problem is that he appeals to a lot of folks. It is not his fault that we haven't found an effective voice. It is ours."

Go Mick, go! If I could hear an entertaining liberal radio talk show host, I might just listen... but there isn't one out there.

As a Conservative, I get a charge out of Rush's politics, but I really listen for the parodies. The "Al Gore Paradise" one and the John McCain's "Should I Stay or Should I Go" were priceless.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

till one great day the Republican Right discovered his one "talent"---a penchant for bitter sarcasm usually directed at anything that contains elements of decency.

As long as this is the way people want their politically flavored entertainment; bitter sarcasm, etc., the Democrats will never have a substantial mouthpiece like Rush. Nobody uses dirty tricks and meanness as effectively as the Republicans, and they never will. Which is unfortunate only in that it seems to give the Republicans the edge when people don't care about content. James Carville tries, but even he doesn't do it effectively.

But that's ok. I'd like to see someone take the high road and not verbally debase people as a way of promoting a political agenda. Since the Democrats aren't effective at using playground-style meanness as a tactic, they really need to stick to using other tactics to get their message across.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

CarolC- You don't think the "dragging the dollar bill through the trailer park" remark was effective against Paula Jones?

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

For what it's worth, friends......My radio show (Acoustic Workshop, 7 pm Mondays, on CIUT Toronto!!!) is currently being sponsored by an

INTERNET AND TELEPHONE PSYCHIC HOT LINE!!!

Can't they see into the future enough to know I make fun of them after every commercial? (yes I COULD probably get fired but I'm more subtle on the air than I am here!

C'mon Mick...if you were in a 'Mudcat dialogue' with Rush, you'd be invitin' him out to hoist a pint! My biggest (at the moment) problem with him is that he IS intelligent and articulate enough to know that Bush is blessed with a bit of a 'simple mind' and obviously no recall of facts (or anything else other than simple repetitive phrases)....but what can he (Rush) say? Rush would KILL to have Chaney and Rumsfeld as the head honchos.

But once again.....Would Bill C. buy his reeds at Guitar Centre? I vote yes.

Cheers (this is fun...if all the threads were still mixed up I'd be feelin' mighty guilty at the moment for talkin' trash!) )

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

Rick- I know what you mean. With the threads separated all tidy-like, you can go nuts on the politics without feeling guilty about the bandwidth :-)

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM

"I find him to be, for the most part, shallow, demagogic, and lacking substance in terms of his policy views. Conversely, I find him very entertaining and witty, in terms of his image. And in terms of self promotion, he is a wizard. This is a man that was a miserable failure in most of his ventures in life. But when he realized he was onto something with his talkshow, he exploited masterfully. He understood that Americans could care less about any facts except those which reinforced their preconceived notions about "how things should be". Folks these days, Democrat and Republican (USA sense), Conservative and Liberal, just don't seem to like true, enlightened debate. They prefer to let themselves get comfortable with what's in front of them, and then search for folks that will make them comfortable with that. Rush is the poster child for this distressing trend. "

Oh. You mean, kind of like our president?

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

I dunno, Carol, we had some pretty ugly tactics from both parties going on in our last local elections in Nashville... our current elected Governor is a Democrat who ran a really nasty campaign. Apparently it worked.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

CarolC- You don't think the "dragging the dollar bill through the trailer park" remark was effective against Paula Jones?

When I look at the results it got, which is to say pretty much none (except maybe to make her cry), I'd have to say no, it was not effective. It probably hurt the Democrats more than it helped them.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM

You could be right in local politics, Kim. But definitely not in national politics.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

Rick - I would guess that in a social setting I would have a ball with Rush. But he wouldn't like debate where he can't control the flow.

Ebbie - yes, like our President. But a huge difference is that Rush doesn't have the nuclear trigger, or the ability to launch cruise missiles and land troops.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

I think if perhaps everyone stuck to the task of getting their message across, it would be so much easier to listen! What I would really like to see is more "here's why my idea is good" instead of "here's why his idea is bad." I don't want to know why I shouldn't vote for him - I want to know why I SHOULD vote for you.

But maybe for some odd reason, people are more attracted to mudslinging, in the same way they're attracted to so-called reality TV. I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:17 PM

CarolC- I have to respectfully disagree with you when you say that only Republicans run nasty campaigns on the national level. I am going to assume that this is one of those "eye of the beholder" moments.

Do you think that it is not nasty when Democrats (i.e. Gephart, Daschle, Pelosi, etc...) accuse Republicans of wanting to take medication away from the elderly, feed ketchup to school children as lunch (remember THAT one?), balance the budgets on the backs of the poor and more? Or do you see those as statements of fact?

If you see those as statements of fact, please remove the word "Republican" and add in the name of any conservative you wish (me included.) If you say, "But I don't know you... so I don't know your motivation" I would have to say that you're right and you've just proven my point. Nasty politics occur on BOTH sides of the aisle, whether we like it or not. That is the nature of the beast.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

CarolC- I also want to suggest that the "dollar bill through the trailer park" statement by Carville was part of a concerted (and effective) effort to discredit Paula Jones via character assasination. Did ANYONE in the media treat her respectfully?

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM

CarolC- I have to respectfully disagree with you when you say that only Republicans run nasty campaigns on the national level. I am going to assume that this is one of those "eye of the beholder" moments.

Beccy, you misquote me entirely. I didn't say the Democrats never do it. I said they suck at it, while the Republicans are quite good at it. When the Republicans do it, more often than not, it succeeds. When the Democrats do it, more often than not, it backfires.

I would suggest a more careful reading of my posts in the future, if you want to have an accurate understanding of what I am saying.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

I apologize for mis-paraphrasing you, CarolC. My bad... but I still respectfully disagree with the substance of what you said. The Democrats are very good at defining the debate by miscasting all Republicans as nasty, mean-spirited and worse.

In fact, recently, Daschle held a press-conference to talk about "Republican obstructionist tactics" while simultaneously assisting in the Estrada filibuster.

I personally think the Republicans stink royally at the PR game. There's nothing sexy about a tough love approach to national issues.

I still think our disagreement boils down to the corner of the ring from which we are looking at the issues. My perception is that the Republians get the shaft more often than not by the media and I'm sure your perception is the opposite. I think Bernard Goldberg was courageous and you probably think he's a paranoid narcissist.

My point? I still think what I said was applicable despite my mis-paraphrasing of you. It's hard to read thoroughly with a stinky-diapered baby on your lap. :-) I was movin' fast...

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

I still think our disagreement boils down to the corner of the ring from which we are looking at the issues.

What makes you think I'm in the Democrat corner of the ring, Beccy?

My perception is that the Republians get the shaft more often than not by the media and I'm sure your perception is the opposite. I think Bernard Goldberg was courageous and you probably think he's a paranoid narcissist.

I'm not familiar with Mr. Goldberg's work. But the fact remains that no one who represents the Democratic side of the debate can even come close to Limbaugh when it comes to attracting an audience using those kinds of tactics. Newt Gingerich was particularly good at that as well.

Re: the media... I don't think any of the major media outlets are unbiased. I don't see them as having a liberal bias though. Mostly I see their biases as transcending party loyalties seeing as how all of the major media outlets are owned by a very small handfull of very large corporations. They'll promote whatever agenda they see as being in their economic interest.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM

That is all true Beccy.

Bernard Goldbergs book is great and should be read by everyone with this kind of interest. But I disagree about media and who they bash. I'll bet it is pretty even up just now.

Imagine. AM radio , a force in America once again.

At the same time Rush( Formerly Russ) Limbaugh has called all Democrats agents of the communist party and traitors to America. But he said such with tongue in cheek I'm sure and there for did no damage to anyone because he is the new "Peck's Bad Boy" and just a cute middle aged cuddle bug. Listen close, it is not hard to find a comment like ... all Democrats are duplicitous in this.... .

You wanna hold up George Will, Barry Goldwater, or Bill Buckley as the great conservative minds of the day and I'll agree with you. But Rush is a Demagogic Demi-God wanna be who is quick of wit and entertaining and all of us who laugh at him and admire his marketing skills may be missing what he really is, just a jerk. I don't believe he is the most dangerous man in America, Reserve that space for John Ashcroft, but I think he is a mouth piece for some dangerous men.

To say all Democrats are bad is as brainless as saying all Republicans are good.

Maybe it is time to stop putting people in Identity Barrels and just use names. Stop the sweeping generalities that both Democrats and Republicans use be specific. If that is too dificult to do then tough. I won't fall into some easily laid trap by a bunch of media heads trying to make their opposite numbers look foolish.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: saulgoldie
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

Did anyone mention and (I skimmed by it) that Rush and many similar talk show hosts (O'Reilly among them) meticulously screen callers for potential opposition and cut off anyone who may be beginning to make a cogent counter-argument? Yes, they do.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM

Saulgoldie- I would like to point out that ALL talk shows that are even remotely engaging are very carefully screened.

As for your assertion that they weed out those with whom they disagree... it's false. They both often put callers with whom they disagree at the front of the queue. For good or for bad, they seem to enjoy the challenge of convincing someone to whom they are ideologically philosophically opposed. I've heard it MANY times with me own ears.

And Don- are you reading my mind? I would hold up Bill Buckley as, bar none, the greatest Conservative intellect of our times. He's one of my favorite. George Will comes in a close second. Bill's more entertaining in his manner of speech, though.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM

Beccy.........you can't be serious. Here I was thinking that you were one of those discerning conservatives. Rush is no more fair to those he disagrees with than any of the rest. They purport to give them time, even let them go a bit, then control how the rest of the conversation goes. It is not even close to debate. Usually the segment will come to an end just as the "opponent" starts to rebut. And the "liberals" aren't any better. Even those moderate/conservative/independent folks like Jim Bohannon do the same. In fact, Bohannon will just talk over the top of you and belittle you, should you disagree with him or come up with something that he believes is not up to his standard.

Talk shows aren't supposed to be real. And they are not. They are contrived to only bolster the opinions of the host. They are emblematic of the problem I pointed out above. They serve to bolster preconceived notions, not to foster understanding or discussion.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:18 PM

What concerns me are the people who don't understand that Rush is a lot of tongue in cheek etc. entertainment. There are a lot of people who take him quite seriously. Don, you put it well when you said you think he is a mouthpiece for dangerous men. I think he brings their message to the mainsteam in such an entertaining way, to some at least it's entertaining, that people forget how harmful it can be. That kind of constant rhetoric can really get embedded in the mass consciousness to the point where a lot of people believe it.

Beccy, you had your baby? Congratulations!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

Kat- That's very kind of you to congratulate me... but I'm still pregnant. It just so happens that I have a 14 month old baby in addition to the fact that I'm pregnant. I'm living proof that breastfeeding is not effective birth control. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

Personally, I'm waiting for Bill Maher to invite Rush to be on his new HBO show........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:53 PM

Bingo, Kat.

There seem to be two predominant types of Rush listeners:

1) Mainstream and often thoughtful conservatives who listen to Rush like a Hispanic listener might enjoy hearing "'Spic" humor from a fellow Latino comedian -- i.e., one of the fold, even when rude or abrasive.

2) The kind of "conservatives" who wouldn't spit on a cross or burn a flag, but will gladly slap a mouthy woman or put a {insert racial epithet here} in their place. This group seems to think listening to Rush is somewhere between listening to the news and listening to a prophet.

I couldn't guess what the actual demographics are, but I seem to meet about half and half. Plus a few liberal listeners who preplexingly seem to listen to Rush merely to work themselves up into a good angry fit. I can't stand to listen to the man myself; his voice makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck and I personally put his ranting into the potty humor/dumb blonde joke category, which I've never found the least bit amusing.

Rush at least seems to be winking at the audience from time to time, and his verbal abuse seems to be crafted for effect rather than 100% serious. There are far worse out there who seem to be under the delusion they are journalists.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

Limbaugh is to serious debate as Professional Wrestling is to ompetitive sports.

Does that help?
I do remember hearing an ad for Guitar Center on his program when I was in NYC. It surprised me when I thought of the customer base I had seen in the local Center - all rock and rap musicians (using the term loosely). At that point I was boycotting Tropicana for their Limbaugh ads.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:58 PM

Don't be fooled by Rush winking at his audience! Remember the last line in "It's A Wonderful Life"..........Every time Rush winks, a fart gets it's freedom."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:11 PM

Sins hits the nail on the head............Limbaugh is to serious debate as Professional Wrestling is to competitive sports. Truth!

Actually that's true of almost all of these yahoos. They're "commentators" and that's all. The last person I can remember on either "side" being anywhere near skilled and understanding of debating was Bill Buckley. In his case though it was hard to listen to him or look at him without getting the impression that he was also auditioning for "The Chipmunks."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:41 PM

The problem I have with Buckley is that he seemed more interested in dazzling people with his clever debating tactics than in the actual substance of his argument.

Maher just gets on my nerves.

I vote for Billy Conolly!!!

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM

Oops, sorry, Beccy! Maybe we can hold that congrats for the actual moment?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:00 PM

Ya know folks, this IS the internet. If any of you are REALLY, REALLY interested in knowing if the Guitar Center sponsors Rush, why doncha send 'em an E-Mail and ask?
Personally, I don't care. There isn't a Guitar Center anywhere near me and I tend to use the local guys wherever I can.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:07 AM

NicoleC- You said,"2) The kind of "conservatives" who wouldn't spit on a cross or burn a flag, but will gladly slap a mouthy woman or put a {insert racial epithet here} in their place. This group seems to think listening to Rush is somewhere between listening to the news and listening to a prophet."

Are you serious? Do you really think 50% of Rush's audience is abusive to women or racist? Do you have ANY idea how offensive that is to me as a listener of Rush?

Is it because of ideology that you think that half of those of us who listen to a radio program are jerks of the first degree? I don't think that half the liberals out there are willing to take my children away from me and have them raised by the government. Why in the world would you think something equally preposterous about the people with whom I share an habit of listening to a radio show? There are a$%holes of EVERY political bent. I see no reason to apply that epithet to half of the millions of people who listen to Rush Limbaugh on a regular basis.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

I have a vague recollection of Rush saying on the air one time, people, this is entertainment; and advising listeners not to take him too seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:23 AM

I can't speak for Nicole, Beccy, but my guess is that it's not his ideology that attracts abusive people but his verbally abusive tactics. Especially his verbal abuse of women who aren't subservient to men. I once had a boyfriend who loved listening to Andrew Dice Clay. This concerned me because Andrew Dice Clay uses a lot of "humor" that is abusive to women. I figured, if my boyfriend thinks this is funny, maybe deep down, he really feels this way about women.

It turns out he was abusive. Not overtly physically abusive, but abusive nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM

Are you serious? Do you really think 50% of Rush's audience is abusive to women or racist? Do you have ANY idea how offensive that is to me as a listener of Rush?

Are YOU serious Beccy? I just spent 5 minutes on Limbaugh's website and found several examples of racism. Limbaugh is clearly a racist. He is clearly a white man who believes himsself to be superior to minorities. He is clearly an American man who believes himself to be superior to Swedes, to French people and, I am confident, to women.
But I guess you think that is OK as long as it is a "joke".

Virtually everything he says is a nasty slur against someone. I don't see what is so fucking entertaining. Its nothing but venal, mean spirited propaganda. He has an entire page dedicated to "winning" arguments about the War in Iraq. Here is the introduction to that page.

"You just can't afford to lose arguments over Iraq. Rush uses facts to make the hardcore anti-American protester and casual, confused observer alike think twice about opposing our next move in the war on terrorism."

I guess, Beccy that even you will admit that this "astute observer" doesn't at all admit the possibility that his "opponents" might also be "astute" with their own point of view. The sad thing is I've heard some of these arguments regurgitated in discussions I've had with "conservatives". I've often wondered why otherwise intelligent people seem to have no idea how to conduct a civil or logical discussion. Now I know, they are copying "Rush". "Rush" is also probably responsible for turning "liberal" into a curseword for so many people. Its much easier to disrespect people and ridicule their views once you've labeled them.

Beccy there is no way a person can be a liberal and use these tactics. The definition of liberal, not Rush's, the real one, automatically implies open mindedness. If you want to be thoroughly indoctronated in small minded bigotry, remain a "listener to Rush".

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM

Yep, Jack, liberals are "open minded" about lots of things. Just not about someone holding an opinion that does not coincide with theirs.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM

Doug it is not Limbaugh's opinions I don't like. It is his promotion of bigotry and his insipid erosion of civilized debate.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

I guess he's a racist who supports Miguel Estrada. Hmm.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:47 AM

Okay, Jack- You quote where he clearly exhibited himself to be a racist. I subscribe to his website- the paid side of it. I have not seen ANYTHING that makes him a racist. Are you a racist if you think Al Sharpton is a boob?

You said,"Beccy there is no way a person can be a liberal and use these tactics. The definition of liberal, not Rush's, the real one, automatically implies open mindedness. If you want to be thoroughly indoctronated in small minded bigotry, remain a "listener to Rush".

Horsecrap. What do you call the thread you just posted? Open-minded?

You also said, "I guess, Beccy that even you will admit that this "astute observer" doesn't at all admit the possibility that his "opponents" might also be "astute" with their own point of view." Again- horsecrap. He is dear friends with Camille Paglia (who I doubt would EVER be considered ANYTHING near a conservative) and has taken her phone calls on his show several times.

Once again, I quote you: "I've often wondered why otherwise intelligent people seem to have no idea how to conduct a civil or logical discussion." What? You mean like the way you're civilly discussing the subject of Rush Limbaugh's RADIO show with me? The way you insist that half of his listening audience is racist and abusive to women? That's REALLY civil, Jack.

You say, "If you want to be thoroughly indoctronated in small minded bigotry, remain a "listener to Rush".   I suggest that if you want to remain small minded and bigoted, you continue on the path you're on where you shout down any dissenting opinion from the liberal one you hold dear.

I on the other hand, will continue listening to ALL sides of an argument without resorting to calling liberals small minded, bigoted, wife-beaters.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

Right-o, Kim... but Miguel Estrada doesn't count, because a nifty special interest group deemed him "Not Hispanic enough."

Hmmm... I guess you can only be a minority if you're liberal, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:04 PM

It's a funny thing about racism. I know some people who are openly and unapoligetically racist, who, nevertheless, like certain people who belong to the races they don't approve of.

One guy I know genuinely believes, and he will tell you that he believes this, that people with blond hair and blue eyes are genetically superior to everyone else. But he thinks Colin Powell is a great man. But he will also tell you that Powell has a lot of "white" genes in him, too, and it's those genes that are responsible for his greatness.

I noticed that Rush's site makes fun of Al Sharpton for pronouncing the word "ask" as "aks". That's something I've heard a lot of racists do.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM

No, Beccy, I said that *I* meet about half and half. I also said I have no idea what the actual demographics are. I'm sorry you assumed I was referring to you in #2 -- though the folks I meet who are seemingly in category #1 are only people I meet online.

I think CarolC has hit the mark -- he's uses a verbally abusive persona on the radio and his show (unsurprisingly) attracts a lot of abusive people.

As for Estrada, why anyone would support a man who's never been a judge a single day in his life for one of the highest judicial positions in the country is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM

This is probably (definitely) the wrong thread to discuss this Estrada guy (or the Rev. Al), so does someone want to start a civil discussion on him (them)? This hasn't really been that bad at all. I think the couple of Flamers who just come here to be silly haven't discovered us yet, way down at the bottom.

I'm already finding it's too easy to yack politics, instead of doing some work......so anyone wanna explain this Estrada to me, a poor Canadian? If I start it I'll hate myself!!

Is he REALLY right-wing? Has he been a drug dealer? (by the way, I'm a liberal who practically gags at the thought of Clinton pardoning those people.....practically makes me sick to my stomach.....so I DO always try and look at both sides of an issue.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:14 PM

CarolC- Rush makes fun of linguistic idiosyncacies whatever someone's color or bent. Have you ever heard him imitate Bill Buckley? It's hilarious- and not at all flattering.

I make fun of someone saying, "Ax" instead of "ask" just as I make fun of our President saying "nucular" instead of "nuclear". I also make fun of people saying, "So don't I" instead of "so do I" in the area which I live in (and it happens to be a predominantly caucasion area.) Does that make me a racist?

My point? I don't think because Rush does a pretty good impression of Al Sharpton that he is a de facto racist.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: GUITAR CENTER SUPPORTS RUSH LIMBAUGH
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM

I don't know, Beccy. I don't find very much amusement in making fun of people's linguistic idiosyncacies, so I can't relate.