BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases

Subject: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

There you go. If you are Catholic and are in the habit of visiting prostitutes for the purpose of having sex, whoopee!

You can now use a condom.

Wow the mind boggles.


Quote from BBC News

Pope Benedict XVI is reported to have said the use of condoms is acceptable "in certain cases".

In a book due to be published on Tuesday, he said they could reduce the risk of infection with HIV, such as for a prostitute.

The pontiff is reported to have made the comments in an interview with a German journalist. The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts on Saturday.

The comments appear to soften the Roman Catholic Church's hardline stance.

Unquote

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

But not for contraception. For millions of women in developing countries the Catholic-induced misery goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

via NPR:

Popes Says Condoms Can Be Used In Some Cases

by The Associated Press
November 20, 2010

Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that the use of condoms can be justified in some cases, such as for male prostitutes seeking to prevent the spread of HIV.

The pontiff made the comments in a book-length interview with a German journalist, Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times. The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts of the book Saturday.

Church teaching has long opposed condoms since they're a form of artificial contraception. The Vatican has been harshly criticized for its position given the AIDS crisis.

Benedict said that for male prostitutes — for whom contraception isn't a central issue — condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they could be justified "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection."

---

Well, that's a relief then.

What a strange situation.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:32 PM

What about women who would like the opportunity to "reduce the risk of infection" from their prostitute visiting husbands?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:50 PM

However faultering, a step in the right direction seems a good thing to be encouraged, rather than complaining he hasn't gone as far as you might wish. Much, much, much more to do yet of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:10 PM

Does it mean all priests can use condom's now?

Reminds me of this old joke

One day, a group of 12 priests were going to be tried for their purity.

They were to stand in a row, naked with bells tied on their groins and let a beautiful, naked lady dance in front of them.

When the time came, the dancer danced in front of the first priest. His bell doesn't so much as jingle. The same with the second, the third, and all the way to the last priest, the 12th.

When the dancer danced in front of him, his bell rang so hard it fell off to the floor. Embarrased, he bent down to pick it up.







And then all the other bells started ringing.

LMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:15 PM

Sarah Palin
now that we covered the religion I thought I would add the politics so we can enjoy another one ...

yup don't need to read it then olddude .. correct nor any more wasted time visiting here

Christ!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

Nothing new in this really. Official disapproval by the Church of the use of condoms has been as contraceptives. Obviously this isn't relevant in situations where conception is in any case impossible, where the only reason for using them is as a prophylactic,to reduce the risk of infection.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whitle
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:19 PM

no word about water bombs then.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM

Never been any ban on using them as water bombs or balloons, I'm afraid. Or as headgear.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:26 PM

Not before time..

I don't suppose the elimination of forensic evidence in child abuse cases was mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:13 PM

wut if yer wife is a ho? does the Pope condom OK still apply?


hmm... Pope condoms - do they have a big hat on the end.




Cardinal condoms -- bright red/

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

Incense flavoured?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

"Nothing new in this really. Official disapproval by the Church of the use of condoms has been as contraceptives. Obviously this isn't relevant in situations where conception is in any case impossible, where the only reason for using them is as a prophylactic,to reduce the risk of infection. "

Actually, there is sopmething radically new - the RC has been openly homophobic, whilst protecting the internal homopedophiles - to actually acknowledge that homosexuals (male only!) may have a conceded right to do what the church has been condemning them for, is absolutely amazing!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: kendall
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:18 PM

Will they ever come out of the dark ages?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:31 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:56 PM

The only form of sex the Church officially condones penile-vaginal intercourse within marriage. Anything else is taboo and you're going to Hell for doin' it. So, if gays, prostitutes, adulterers, fornicators, pederasts, cunnilinguists and fellators are all damned anyway, why should the Pope give a shit if they use condoms?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:11 PM

Yes, if you see things only in absolutes, the statement makes no sense at all. That's one of the reasons why the Catholic Church avoided giving any sort of approval to condoms in the first place. Now that they've bowed to common sense and admitted that condoms can prevent disease, the statement will be distorted in all sorts of ways.
If you want to understand this pope, you have to listen to his entire statements, not just sound bites. He's actually quite rational in what he says, if you take the time to follow his thinking.
This New York Times article will give somewhat of an idea.

The churches have to uphold the ideal of a faithful sexual relationship within the context of marriage - you really can't fault them for wanting to do that. And really, in our heart of hearts we all know that a faithful marriage and a stable family is a good thing.

But what if the ideal isn't possible? Well, then, you have to do what you can to deal with reality and still respect the ideal. You have to balance the ideal with common sense.

Don't expect churches to promote promiscuity, but what if promiscuity is the reality? Well, then, there is a great risk of the spread of sexually-transmitted disease (STD); and morality demands that at the very least, something must be done to prevent STD epidemics. In that case, condoms would certainly be helpful.

For most of its history, the Catholic Church has attempted to avoid moral absolutism; and yet many forces within and outside the church have tried to box the church into a corner of absolutism. In the Christian faith, there are really only two moral absolutes: love God above all things, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. To make a moral decision, you have to consider all the factors in the light of these two principles, and temper it all with a lot of common sense.

Now, I suppose you could find fault with Catholic opposition to birth control. From an absolutist position, I would suppose you would be correct. But somehow, a huge number of Catholic families get along without procreating huge numbers of children. I suppose every parish has a couple of families with lots and lots of kids, but that's unusual in cultures where people have small families. In our parish, we have one family with six kids (four are adopted) and one with four (all adopted); and a couple very conservative, severe families that just keep having kids. All the others have two or three kids, which seems to me to be fairly responsible population control.

So, what's the deal here? Well, maybe Catholic families have learned to live by rational principles, rather than by blind moral absolutes. This is a brief summary of the moral theology I was taught in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s - which really isn't a whole lot different from the way it was taught for centuries before. A lot of people (including a lot of priests and bishops) aren't smart enough to realize the balance and common sense that is involved in making a moral decision, and that's where people get bound up in moral absolutes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:21 PM

In my youth (1950s), condoms in the U.S. said "sold for the prevention of disease" on the label. This was to avoid the imputation that they were contraceptives, which would have been illegal. The Pope has evidently caught up with that dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:55 PM

If the RC Pope claims to be Gods (or, Christ's) representative on Earth, is it unreasonable to expect that he would possess common sense, at least comparable to most RC parishoners?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:05 PM

If the Pope, or anyone else, wants to try to be a representative of Christ on earth, in terms of bringing Christian compassion into the world, and expressing Christian values, that's fine with me. But when the Pope, or any Protestant, tries to claim authority to define Christianity, or to enforce his concept of Christianity, he can take it and shove it for all of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:17 PM

frogprince

Spoken like a Prince, not a Frog.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:26 PM

See we had fun making pithy jokes and inane comments tinged with baseless bigotry, then Joe has to write professionally with concise insight and clarity by raising the issue to the most extreme illumination of understanding.

Jeez, What is he trying to do, set a good example of self expression or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:35 PM

The Pope and bishops are supposed to discern the "sensus fidelium," the wisdom of all faithful people. Whether that happens in actuality, is a matter for debate. Another matter for debate is whether the Pope and bishops respect their professed principle of "collegiality" - shared decision-making.
My personal opinion is that the Pope and bishops have not always performed satisfactorily in these areas (and they really piss me off sometimes) - but they're not the absolute dictators that some people make them out to be. And Catholics do not follow them as blindly as many people may think. Disdain for church authority is a longstanding tradition in the Catholic Church, particularly in places where the Romance languages are spoken. American and Northern European Catholics are catching up with that "take it with a grain of salt" mentality, but I don't think they're as cynical about church authorities as, say, the Italians.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 11:14 PM

"All the others have two or three kids, which seems to me to be fairly responsible population control."

It may seem so - but the maths say that such an increase rate, with people living into their 80/90s will cause the world population to reach an unsustainable level - what with 6 billion already, and rapidly increasing, calculations tend towards only 2 billion is sustainable currently - all we need is to have a few big volcanoes erupt and blanket the sky again, and the hard winters we will experience again will hurt even more than they did in the past.

Well, Joe, I follow your thinking... but ... "He's actually quite rational in what he says, if you take the time to follow his thinking."

Well, the logic and rationalising process was pretty much the same a few hundred years ago when some poor bugger tried to say, just to make the maths easier, that the earth went around the sun .... and interestingly enough, the surviving mechanical machines form the Greeks point to them understanding retrograde planetary motion well enough to suggest they may have suspected that the earth was not the centre ... :-)

I disagree with your claim about no absolutism, the RC did absolutely deny condoms, now accepting "that condom use can be justified in some cases to help stop the spread of AIDS, the first Vatican exception to a long-held policy condemning condom use" is a step away from absolutism ... seems to me :-)

"the Roman Catholic Church does not see condoms as "a real or moral solution,"" - er, what, the pope is thus suggesting an UNREAL or IMMORAL solution?!!!!! Some critics have said that denying condoms was in itself unrealistic and unreal ... :-) Wait on, he IS saying that! QUOTE "It's very carefully qualified," he said. "It would be wrong to say, 'Pope Approves Condoms.' He's saying it's immoral but ... UNQUOTE ... So we now have The Infallible One saying that it is ok to act immorally, if we can justify it later on ... wibble, wibble wibble ... ok so taking that as a precedent, it's ok to rob a bank, if .... hmmm, need to give that one a bit more thought ....


"The pope made clear that he considered the use of condoms a last resort " - he was secular in his youth, it sounds .... :-)


I'm sorry, but I'm not really prepared to listen much to the ravings of someone who 'pointed to a "readiness for aggression" among those who criticized him for revoking the excommunication of a bishop who denied the scope of the Holocaust', a criticism that would seem reasonable...

"if he did not feel up to the task of being pope, he would resign. " - never heard of it happening before ...

I read the whole article - sounds like he is going senile and irrational to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:25 AM

Foolestroupe, the New York Times article summarizes a book-length interview. To get an understanding of what he said, you need to read at least a few pages on any given topic.

I don't believe you'll find condoms mentioned anywhere in official Catholic doctrine. You certainly won't hear them mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and only rarely from the pulpit. There has been mention made of condoms in the interpretation of doctrine, but that's on a far less binding level.

And considering that people are having children at an older age and some aren't having children at all, and some children die early, I would think it wouldn't be all that bad a thing for people to have freedom of choice to have two or three children, if that's what they wish.

Why do we have to live by absolutes? The current Conventional Wisdom is that unless another person is Absolutely Right from my perspective, I have no obligation to accord him or her any respect. I disagree - I find it better to listen to everyone, and extract the wisdom from what each person has to say.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:31 AM

Given the recent history of the church, it seems to me a case of breathtaking arrogance that the church should have the nerve to pontificate (pun intended) on sexual matters - "When will they ever learn"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM

Just think, if the Catholic Church allowed the use of condoms for everybody, just think how it would help the makers of such things. Surely that would be good for the economy in many ways. Bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:01 AM

"The current Conventional Wisdom is that unless another person is Absolutely Right from my perspective"

Ah. but that IS the point - if you claim to follow that religion strand, He IS the Acme of Absolute Right and Correctness - He Pontificated so Himself - in a previous incarnation ....

And now you may glimpse why when much younger I found it difficult to claim to be a follower of an Absolute Mythical Magical Invisible Sky Fairy who one was supposed to obey absolutely, yet whose other followers insisted on being 'pragmatic' whenever it suited them, depending on which way the wind was blowing, and so I decided that it was actually easier for me to just cut out the middle man, and just be pragmatic for myself! :=)

The problem is that many people DO defer to the opinions of such a leader, when it suits them to blame someone else for their actions, better they should think for themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:27 AM

I think like I'm assuming Joe is, the faithful marriage is something to be encouraged and there are problems with promiscuity.

That is in no way to say there may not be reason for contraception or to say that I personally agree with the RC stance on a priest being celibate.

As an attempted but failed believer, by current belief is whether you marry should be between you, your partner and God.

The one reservation I would have is (and my only ever sex I had was with a non Christian and it wound up one hell of a mess with her and bf in prison) is that those with this particular belief should seek others with the same belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:26 AM

Is the Pope really that niave to think that male prostitutes are the only ones who can carry HIV? He must be terribly sheltered or something. What about if a female prostitute is visited by a bi-sexual man? Who's to say that they are going to wear a condom? Surely he should have said all prostitutes. So in around about way he is saying that the risk of AIDS comes from homosexuality mainly or did I hear that wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 04:53 AM

Quote from Wiki

The words abstinence and celibacy are often used interchangeably, but are different. Sexual abstinence is the absence of intercourse (even for an individual who is married), but celibacy is the avoidance of all forms of sexual activity (including, but not limited to, the state of marriage itself).

End of quote

I find it rather strange and unhealthy, to have a group of blokes called preists being celibate and doing it for somebody they have never seen in real life.

"celibacy is the avoidance of all forms of sexual activity"

How many priests out there, can honestly say they have never dealt with an urge in their life.

To be celibate for somebody you have never seen in real life, suggests doctrination of the mind, which to me is scary.
By all means follow your belief in a God, but don't doctrinate healthy human beings into being celibate. It's bound to go wrong.

However, I do support people who decide to be celibate, who have made that decision themselves without the intervention of religion or somebody warping their mind.

rubber ducky

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

So do I, it's not always to do with religion or sex some people choose celibacy in order to channel all their energy for a particular purpose such as writing, art or perhaps sport or doing good without being sidetracked.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:48 AM

Anyways, it isn't the male prostitute who needs to use a condom. It's the other feller. Is this allowed? I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:06 AM

That's what I mean Steve it is scary how niave the Pope is, perhaps someone should take him aside and explain who does what to whom.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:07 AM

Shows where women fit in his view of things doesn't it?

I wonder if it runs to bishops and priests use when molesting the vulnerable in their flock . . .

Utterly outrageous!

The man is a fool and has rendered the Catholic Church another body blow (no pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

"So in around about way he is saying that the risk of AIDS comes from homosexuality mainly or did I hear that wrong?"

Patsy....I know you are pretty new to this forum, but if you would care to look up the latest CDC hiv figures, you will find that in the US and UK, homosexuals are 44 times more likely to contract hiv/aids than heteros

Sad, but true.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:42 AM

That is not the case in Africa. True, and even sadder.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:53 AM

The African demographic is quite different, and the homo/ hetero ratio has never been properly determined.
However, my last post was for Patsy's information and I would rather not open the HIV debate again on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:02 AM

True, but there are an awful lot of Catholics in Africa and the Pope has an awful lot of influence there. The picture is indeed complicated but you wouldn't be on safe ground saying that HIV is predominantly an homosexual issue there.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM

Yes Steve, but this is a very complex issue especially from a philosophical/theological viewpoint.

The kneejerk reactions we see above serve no one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:06 AM

It's complex if the Pope wants to make it complex. The so-called kneejerk reactions happen to be what a lot of people actually think about the Pope and his ill-judged opinions, which have little to do with philosophy and a lot to do with control. And if it's a theological issue I would like to know precisely what he derives his authority from on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:35 PM

As far as we know, one of the causes and means of spread of hiv is promiscuity....there may be other factors, but a proper medical inquiry has not yet taken place to determine them.
Encouraging family values and monogamy cuts
promiscuity rates. The use of condoms does not cut promiscuity, it may encourage it and users may under certain circumstances become careless
Taken to its logical conclusion, condom use can destroy or badly weaken humanity.
Do those who simply say that condom use is the answer to hiv/aids really think about what they are saying....the two behaviours do not compliment one another

Firstly we need a proper medical study into the homosexual/aids link, we need guidance on the abuse of sexuality, the use of condoms as a contraceptive and in the short term as infection control....but they are not the long term solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:38 PM

The Pope should join the ConDoms in the UK and then maybe they could put a tax on sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:54 PM

Yes, it's complicated. I don't deny it. But I smell a censorious rat when I read expressions such as family values and encouraging monogamy. Whatever different values to ours are practised in Africa, they were practised for millennia before AIDS came along. This is not an opportunity to attempt to impose western values on other people. And I don't know who you're thinking of when you refer to "those who simply say that condom use is the answer to hiv/aids." I want condoms to be just as available in Africa, free from moralising, as they are here. They are not the answer to HIV but they are part of the answer, and to a lot more than just HIV.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy, should be working
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:46 AM

Then again there are those a very small (hopefully) minority that will spread it on purpose. Thank God it doesn't happen too often but there are the odd cases where the state of mind of an infected person has become so bitter and twisted then delibrately spreading the disease. Has he got an answer for that one? I am guessing that it is classed as a criminal act but how is the Pope going to stop someone thinking that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:59 AM

Poster is Brian May
I was going to say the Pope is out of touch, but then realised that too, was dangerous ground as his practitioners have been doing a lot of that over the millenia.

I feel REALLY sad for all the poor souls who didn't report it, because 'who would believe them over the word of a 'man of the cloth'?

I still think the thrust of his statement (sorry) was very misplaced.

AKENATON - 'Kneejerk reactions' - damn right, it would appear that had they happened sooner, this lot of charlatans et al wouldn't have got away with what they did. That's predation of the worst kind, at least the other paedophiles can't hide behind an understanding bishop.

They're the ones that should be stoned, not some poor woman in Iran/Afghanistan or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

Why can't people just be brave enough to say that it is Pope Benedict that has to go. Can a Pope be sacked? I am not a Catholic so I don't know if there is a procedure they follow if a Pope doesn't come up to scratch.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:54 AM

Guest...I think you will find, that the majority of the abuse was not paedophilia.

The sexual abuse of teenage boys by a man is something different.

The cover up was a shame on the Catholic church, but try to get your facts right.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:09 AM

Latest comments from the Vatican as per BBC News

The Vatican has clarified Pope Benedict XVI's comments on condoms, saying their use by men and women to prevent HIV could be an act of "responsibility".

The clarification follows comments suggesting Pope accepted their use only in exceptional circumstances.

But the Vatican's senior spokesman said the key point was taking the life of the other person into consideration.

End of quote.

To me that opens it up completely.

It means that every who who is Catholic can now say "I could be at risk of HIV from my husband, because I don't know what he does in his spare time away from me. So we must use a condom in future"

or

From the husbands point of view "I must take the life of my wife into consideration. I think it's too much for her to deal with giving birth and might result in her death. So I must use a condom from now on"

Gay people/prostitutes etc can use similar arguments.

So there you have it. All Catholics can now use condoms.