BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

I am saying that the education we currently provide (at least in the UK, as I can't speak for anywhere else) is inadequate and often ofthe wrong kind. I was involved in it in secondary schools for 25 years and I found it to be a very frustrating role. Almost without hope in fact. Even if it were better than it currently is, things would not exactly helped by people claiming that homosexual people are anomalous or abnormal, as has been suggested here. They are simply at one end of a big spectrum of sexual behaviour (or let's even draw the spectrum as a big circle instead). People who think gay people are anomalous or in some way abnormal, or who characterise them as a group as promiscuous, are betraying the sort of prejudice that actually emanates from the inadequate education I'm on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

"For education to work, people must pay attention."

That's a given. There are techniques using face to face information and "social marketing techniques", rather than preaching down to people from holy perches, or passing out shiny brochures randomally on the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:53 PM

Steve Shaw, you post at 6:54 AM was very rational...not that I'm very rational at that hour...

You speak about "moralising at people and hectoring them about how they're promoting HIV." I think you might be surprised that you won't hear that kind of moralizing in most Catholic churches. I don't agree with its prohibition of birth control, but the Humanae Vitae encyclical of Pope Paul VI in 1968 is a good example of how the Catholic Church speaks of sexual intercourse as something sacred and beautiful. Even if you don't agree with all its conclusions, it is a very rational and respectful document. You won't hear the "tsk, tsk" moralizing from the pulpit very often, not even about abortion. The "tsk, tsk" stuff comes from small-minded, rigid people who have their own agenda.

As far as I can tell, Catholic charities do not spend a lot of money on "abstinence only" education programs - that silly project was paid for by American taxpayers, courtesy of the Bush Administration. Catholic charities DO expend a lot of money treating HIV victims. No, they don't promote condoms, but I've never heard of a Catholic-sponsored program intended to oppose the use of condoms.

So, please don't paint the Catholic interests with such a dark brush. They're far less doctrinaire and far less moralistic than some people assume them to be. Certainly, we have our extremist idiots - but so does every group.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 09:57 PM

I have difficutly with some things RC Joe and when my attempted Christian head is working, I would be non-denominational but yes to tar everyone who has religious beliefs with the same brush would be stupid.

Personally as failed Christian, once in a while I try to give to Health Help International

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:47 AM

I have difficulty with some things RC, too, Jon. This evening, I heard my Irish-born pastor tell me things would be a lot better for Catholics if there were no celibacy requirement for priests. I think he's right, but that's not the only problem.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Brian May
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 07:49 AM

In the days of tobacco advertising being non PC, it does give a whole revival of the expression 'Roll your own'.

Sorry to inject childish humour here, but we've all been a bit serious about (rightly), but perhaps we need to put it down now.

Perhaps we're all a little wiser and can agree he's actually the first Pope to move FORWARDS with this.

Even for him, I can say 'credit where credit's due'.

Akenaton - I'll even apologise for being personal with you, I don't know you an cannot make the assertion I did. But feelings do run high on matters such as these, mine did too.

'Leopards can't change their spots - thank God we're human . . . we can'

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Just had a gander through this thread for the first time.

As ever, stereotypes to the fore!

Joe Offer sees the logic in the old German dude's reasoning and wishes everybody would see him in context rather than soundbite.

Akenaton goes back to form with his homophobic rants.

Most others can't see what ramblings of the Pope has to do with them.

So, is there anything left for Willie to cover? (Sorry.. couldn't resist it.)

Well actually, there is.

Despite my misgivings of the Pope's power of influence over a huge percentage of the world's population, despite my concern that the "control" side of religion is more prominent than the "moral living" side of things...

I actually applaud him for coming off the fence somewhat. Yes, he has said things in a way that doesn't alienate the bigoted end of his congregation, he hasn't said anything that could be misinterpreted as condoning promiscuity.. But, he is the first leader of left footers to actually come out and acknowledge the advantages to society of contraception.

It doesn't mean I suddenly applaud gilded palaces being built alongside unsanitary slums in South America. it doesn't mean I agree with Catholic clergy having unregulated access to vulnerable people, it doesn't mean I have any time for sexist homophobic excuses for the general position of the Vatican on many issues...

It just means this dude has shown a bit of courage and humility for once and allowed a pragmatic stance prevail.

I don't actually mind that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM

It's undoubtedly a good thing he's done, but I can't help seeing it as a desperate effort to claw back a bit of popularity.

I only hope it results in the increased availability of condoms where they can have a significant effect, though I suppose proactive encouragement and education would be too much to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:02 AM

We could all say what should or should not be but you can't foresee the behaviours of everyone in different social circumstances. If we had a crystal ball predicting that someone was going to do something potentially dangerous like unprotected sex we could go in there like Superman and stop it before it starts. LOL!

At the end of it all whether we agree on the how and why, it is reassuring that we can all discuss it like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 01:04 PM

Popularity does not come into it! Sorry Smokey,we have bee bombarded by sexual education and information on condom use for decades, but the male homosexual hiv figures continue to rise.....according to CDC, in some areas 1 in 5 homosexuals carry the virus.
Even more alarming is the fact that of homosexuals who tested positive, almost one third were unaware of their hiv status.


Would anybody like to explain why this situation exists?    No! Silence or abuse is the only response I get.

Is it because the sex is between two or more males, without the steadying influence of the female, or the attachments formed by procreation, that the homosexual promiscuity rates are so high?

Or are homosexuals no more promiscuous than heteros, and there is some other factor which causes the high rates?
Have you no opinions? Do you not care? Is it none of our business?



The Pope is correct that condom use is not the answer, though it is of course helpful as infection control in the short term.
People must be made to recognise that this rise in infection rates cannot be allowed to continue until society is decimated, and the biggest obstacle to that is not the Pope, but "liberal ideology".
"All minorities should be allowed to behave exactly as they like, regardless of damage to themselves or society at large"

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:05 PM

Popularity does not come into it! Sorry Smokey,we have bee bombarded by sexual education and information on condom use for decades

Ake, you seem to have misunderstood me - my fault, I was a bit vague. I meant popularity for the Pope among western RC's who have become more than a bit disillusioned with the church heirarchy of late due to the recent scandals.

As for availability, education and encouragement, I was thinking about such places as Africa where the availability of condoms is lamentably low due to the word/influence of the church which is taken somewhat more literally than it generally is around here and the U.S.

Is it because the sex is between two or more males, without the steadying influence of the female, or the attachments formed by procreation, that the homosexual promiscuity rates are so high?

Or are homosexuals no more promiscuous than heteros, and there is some other factor which causes the high rates?

I've never noticed that homosexuals are any more promiscuous than anyone else, but it's true to say they are more inclined to sodomy than heterosexual couples, which I think is the surest sexual way of transmitting the disease. I suspect though, that needle sharing is probably being underestimated as a factor as it's impossible to gather meaningful statistics due to the illegality of the drugs. There is also the crossover between the hard drug culture and prostitution to consider. Much could be done to alleviate that factor, but it seems to be generally ignored, no doubt due to conflicting political agendas.

the steadying influence of the female

Hmm.. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

"the steadying influence of the female"

Hmm.. :-)

Watch it mate, the monsterous regiment are about to attack. :0)
I take your point about the Popes stance. I disagree with him about contraception, but think the Church has a point about abortion, although it is an extremely complex issue even for an atheist like me.

It must be even more difficult for committed Christians like Joe, who happen to have liberal leanings.

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

On hiv transmission, the last I heard UDU infection rates were falling, as were rates for "sex workers".....the only demographic in which the rate is consistantly rising is MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

On that personally I'd say we do not. But if you are talking in terms of bringing one in with a known illness or deformity I really struggle. Part of me would say God has given this life so I should not deny it. Another part of me would say why bring this child into what I can only see as misery? Have been unable to resolve this one in my own mind for a while...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM

African-American Men Who Have Sex With Men Show Higher HIV Rates Despite Less Sexually Risky Behavior

"The authors of the study suggested stigma against homosexuality and barriers to health care and HIV testing may play an important role in the observed racial disparity in HIV rates".




http://www.aidsbeacon.com/news/2010/10/01/african-american-men-who-have-sex-with-men-show-higher-hiv-rates-despite-less-sexually

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:44 PM

Yes Jon...I can understand your dilemma and sometimes I'm glad that I dont have the added burden of religious belief.

I also know that to many, belief is not a burden, but a gift and a comfort.....but only if one can divorce oneself from the reality of life. God taking the place of justice......if justice ever really exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:56 PM

Cant really understand that link Ed...Its a bit of a hotch potch.
Figures dont seem to match CDC.
Who funds "Aids Beacon"?

Additionally the old chestnut of aids rates being affected by stigma is just not true, there being much less stigma against homosexuals and aids than there was 10/20 years ago, yet infection are much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 06:59 PM

Ignoring the problem, or saying its none of our business adds to the death and disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

I dunno who funds it.
Maybe it is a bit odd?
Just ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

Joe... "So, please don't paint the Catholic interests with such a dark brush. They're far less doctrinaire and far less moralistic than some people assume them to be."

Yer preachin to the choir, but the problem is the non-Cat'lic choir are singing too loud ta hear yee.

I liken it to sommat that don't sit well with some... once, when one a them there front door visits took place with a couple a them there holierthanthous, I said, "Good thing I'm a black Irish Cat'lic and am more tolerant of your religion than you are of mine on accounta if us Cat'lics were as fuckamental as yee, there wouldn't be none a yees."

They looked dumfounded when I shut the door on them. But, that's to be expected when you deal with the brain dead.

I suppose it's better that the brain dead are into mindless religion rather than out in the streets aimlessly but I really don't wanna be bothered with them at my door.

As for the guy in the fancy hat condoning condom use in some cases, only anti-Cat'lics will shit on that. Cat'lics have been using condoms since they were invented. Only devout Cat'lics don't. And, if they are devout Cat'lics, there is no problem. If you argue that one, you really don't understand what the man in the pointy hat is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 08:22 PM

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

Yes.

But there's a lot more to it than "rights." That's the point. And you're missing the point, otherwise you wouldn't have posted such a crass question.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Nov 10 - 09:10 PM

Why is my rhetorical question "crass"?
and CAN a rhetorical question be "crass"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 12:59 AM

I also know that to many, belief is not a burden, but a gift and a comfort.....but only if one can divorce oneself from the reality of life. God taking the place of justice......if justice ever really exists.

Again I find that one difficult these days...

I may believe the ultimate justice comes on the day of judgement but does that mean for example a serial killer should be walking the streets - I think not...

The only thing in this direction I try to do and constantly fail at is rather than be the judge on things I read about is to try to take some form of "there but for the grace of God go I" view. I find it really difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 04:57 AM

Well, I hope you find your way Jon, either through "God" or through the the observation and understanding of your brothers and sisters.

As you seem a very caring and thoughtful individual I hope it is by the latter.

Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:04 AM

Cheers Akenaton.

The truth on me as an individual that way is that I can get drawn into arguments, can be very hot tempered in argumentative ways, go in directions I should not, etc.

OTHO thoughtful and tried - at least I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM

To add to that ake. I am often described by others with a POTENTIAL DESIRE to do good. But...

I just mostly make messes.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:38 AM

Join the club Jon!!!!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:38 AM

The kind of person who would condone a condom, could never be trusted not to profile a prophylactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:27 AM

It isn't a rhetorical question if there's an answer. And there definitely was.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 10:37 AM

Oh! so you know for sure that God exists?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

Here's your allegedly rhetorical question again, for your delectation.

If god creates life do we have the right to terminate that life to make our own existence easier?

"If" makes the whole thing conditional, which I was quite happy to go along with. You could also have asked "Even if God..." or "Even if God hadn't..." or "If there's a God who..." The question, whichever way you could have put it, potentially arouses varying opinions and is therefore not rhetorical. It is certainly strongly tendentious and very clumsy. It seems to assign only base motives to those people who terminate "lives," so it's insensitive as well as tendentious. On the whole, crass, whether rhetorical or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 05:51 PM

Laying aside the "rhetorical" issue, surely if one believes in "god the creator", then anyone who terminates the human life which he has created has committed a crime against god?

Most terminations are not mercy killings of what will turn out to disabled children......but the termination of a young life to make the lot of the mother or of society easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 06:10 PM

Well, God sets a pretty poor example by slaughtering so many embryos in the womb himself.

If you want an abortion debate I'm up for it, but that possibly demands another thread. Suffice to say I find your analysis to be crude and lacking in consideration of the contexts of the vast majority of abortions carried out. It also says nothing about how we can genuinely reduce the numbers of abortions, which, most decidedly, is not the Catholic way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 06:39 PM

Steve, my post to Jon was not about abortion per se, but rather concerning the dilemma facing "liberal" Christians regarding the abortion issue.
You sprung in for the kill, without familiarising yourself with the context of my point.

I'm sorry if my grammar is not quite up to your exalted standards, but there's precious little attention paid to grammar in my line of work.

I am an atheist by the way, not a Catholic.

Even so, I think it is rather a good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

My grammar, etc., flows naturally from the education I had in a Catholic grammar school in the north-west of England in the 60s. I do my best, though I'm acutely aware that there could well be many a flaw in my somewhat hurried posts. The main aim for me is not to show off but to communicate what I'm thinking in reasonably clear (and, hopefully, simple) language. Even after a pint or five. ;-) If it comes across as in any way "superior," then all I can say is that I don't really know any other way and that 'tis a cross I shall simply have to bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 07:56 PM

Poor you!    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 08:07 PM

Yep.


Oops, I mean "yes."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

Steve Shaw mentions how we can genuinely reduce the numbers of abortions, which, most decidedly, is not the Catholic way.. I agree, Steve. Too many Catholic bishops have sold out to the unforgiving "pro-life" movement, which is only interested in gaining power for the right-wing extreme and proving itself right, not in reducing the number of abortions. Planned Parenthood, the hated nemesis of the "pro-life" movement, does a far better job of actually reducing the number of abortions, because it teaches responsible family planning.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:21 AM

That's it. I don't want to get started on abortion again, but this is just to say that I personally haven't met anyone who is in favour of abortion in the sense that abortion is a good thing. The paradox is that supposed pro-abortionists who also advocate good education for planned parenthood are, in effect, far more anti-abortion than the evangelical pro-lifers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:41 AM

So to summarise:-

1) At all times, suspect your wife of having a sexually transmitted disease
2) Position condom on erect male appendage
3) Make love to aforesaid wife, all the while thinking this will save me from a grievous illness - but no funny business, make sure you're connected to the approved orifice.
4) If you snuff it - you're on the fast trak to heaven

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:51 AM

I'm not at all sure where you are coming from AL!!!!

1 I think there is something to be said for a faithful marriage and responsible sex.

2 I believe (unless perhaps you were to be say thrown to the lions in Roman times) there is no fast track to heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:56 AM

Sorry, that guest wisnae Jesus, it wi only masell!
Ah'll print it again incase some anti-lifer scrubs it....like

Aye...Haud on a minute!

There's nobody saying that in certain circumstances abortion is not a good thing.

My point is that it seems commonsense to expect a committed believer to be against the termination of human life on grounds of expediency.
How can anyone say that abortion is a good thing without qualification?

I am not one of Joe's "natural enemies" on this forum, not an atheist who thincks all spiritual thinking should be banned, but his latest post containing "Catholic bishops have sold out to the unforgiving "pro-life" movement, which is only interested in gaining power for the right-wing extreme and proving itself right, not in reducing the number of abortions", is quite insulting to people like myself, who see abortion being gradually accepted as a form of birth control.

Surely we are all "pro life" to a larger or smaller extent....if we ever find ourselves to be "anti life" it really is time to "send in the horsemen father"

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 09:55 AM

The problem here is the use of terms such as "expediency" and your earlier one, "to make our own existence easier."

Whilst I don't doubt that a relatively small number of people view abortion as a convenient, last-ditch form of contraception, I think that this does not cover the vast majority of cases. Obtaining an abortion is hardly a breeze even in this day and age. It's the same old story: find a tiny number of disreputable cases around the fringes and use 'em to bolster your main argument. The tiny number of very late abortions has been used to similar effect. If we are serious about addressing the distressingly-high abortion rates we really have to start by properly articulating why the vast majority of young women who resort to abortion do so, without judgement or prejudice. It isn't helpful to blanket condemn in the way you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:34 AM

Actually, my comment had more to do with the nature of religion than the rights or wrongs of abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

I'm sorry if my language is too strong for such a refined Catholic mind, but us Scots are weel kent fur ca'in a spade a shovel, like!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:10 PM

My mind ceased to be a Catholic one at least 30 years ago, and no-one who knows me would ever call it "refined."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

Quote from Steve Shaw
Whilst I don't doubt that a relatively small number of people view abortion as a convenient, last-ditch form of contraception, I think that this does not cover the vast majority of cases.
End of quote

Possibly the largest amount of abortions are caused by man meets girl, they have sex, man do not want to know, girl has abortion.

There are many reasons for having an abortion, but when an abortion occurs because of medical reasons, that has top priority IMHO. I condone such abortions and as far as religion is concerned, they can mind their own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:19 PM

Steven's novel idea of people using abortion as a means of contraception will never catch on........must be a strange old place Shawsville.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

Bit "clumsy" there Steve! Blockage in the communication flow? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:18 PM

OK, not the right word. I told you I wasn't refined. And I have an extremely heavy cold in the head. You're welcome to pick me up on the substantive issue, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope 'condones condom use in some cases
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 06:19 PM

I'd go even further, Arthur. Not only is it none of religion's business, it's also none of my business to condone it or not.