BS: McCain... Another lieing president???

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

And it is entirely possible to give away too much of your principles while trying to get elected, just to say what you needed to say to get elected.

Selling out one's principles (if they actually have them, that is--it appears Obama doesn't have any principles upon which he is willing to take a principled stand) in order to "compromise" isn't a sign of leadership.

It is a sign of demagoguery.

So, how much demgoguing is too much demagoguing?

Leaders take principled stands on their positions because that is the right thing to do, and they do it knowing it will cost them some votes.

How many votes, no one ever knows. But certainly not enough votes to rationalize and justify not having ANY principles whatsoever, to make yourself enough of a chameleon to beat the other guy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

OK, so now I lied about taking a time out! ;-)

I'm outta here!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

In the case of Obama's position on allowing increased offshore drilling, it's not that there is a difference between what he says as a candidate and what he'll do as president if he gets elected. It's a difference between what he says he'll do as president and what he thinks is required of him as a senator.

His position as a candidate for president is that he will work to reduce our dependence on oil and to increase our ability to get our energy needs met in other ways. This is a far better position that McCain's on this subject. His role in helping to bring this about will be very different as president than it is as a senator.

As a senator, he has the same goal, but the way he can help make this happen is very different. As a senator, he can craft legislation or he can support legislation crafted by others. The position he is articulating now is in reference to a piece of legislation that he will have to either vote for or vote against (or not vote at all). This legislation would not interfere with Obama's overall goal of making the oil companies irrelevant. This is because, although the oil companies would have access to oil that they currently do not have, if the oil companies are made irrelevant by green technologies, whether or not they are allowed to drill in those places will become a moot point. There won't be any reason to drill there because there won't be any demand for the oil.

One thing that I particularly like about the legislation is that it repeals tax breaks that the oil companies are currently enjoying.

I think some people aren't looking at this issue very carefully or deeply, and this is causing them to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:09 PM

Ir ia NOT a far better position than McCain's, it is THE SAME position as McCain's.

He just co-opted McCain's position on energy, the same way Bush/McCain co-opted his on Iraq after Malaki agree with his timetable while he was in Iraq.

This "shift" in Obama's position is dramatic, and obviously pandering and demagoguing, to align himself with the majority of voters on this issue.

NEITHER candidate has a good, or even fairly passible position on the energy crisis.

At least, not now they don't.

Obama had a shot at it by standing with the OTHER SENATORS against offshore drilling.

So don't give me that "difference between being a senator and a presidential candidate" business. His senate colleagues were able to toe the line and go home for the break.

Why can't Obama stand with his colleagues, which include both Republicans and Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

If one actually reads what Obama has said and what is at stake, one can see that their positions are entirely different.

McCain is helping the oil companies to use high oil prices to blackmail the voters into allowing them to have whatever they want. McCain is saying that allowing the oil companies to have whatever they want will decrease the price of oil. This is a lie, and it is not at all what Obama is saying or trying to do.

Obama is not saying that increasing offshore oil drilling will reduce the price of gas. He is not saying that he is in favor of increasing offshore oil drilling. He is not advocating that we give the oil companies whatever they want.

He is saying that there is a bill before the Senate that he thinks has a pretty good chance of getting passed that would help to make the oil companies irrelevant. He is saying that the reason it has a good chance to get passed is because, although it contains elements that will ultimately make oil companies irrelevant, it also contains some short term incentives for senate members who are beholden to oil interests to vote for it anyway.

These are two entirely different things.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM

``What I don't want to do is for the best to be the enemy of the good,'' Obama, a senator from Illinois, said at a news conference today in Cape Canaveral, Florida. ``If we can come up with a general bipartisan compromise in which I have to accept some things I don't like, then that's something I'm open to.''

Clearly, it's better to read the headlines than to consider the content.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

I did read what Obama said, and what his stated position on the issue of offshore drilling was on his website, before yesterday.

Here are the facts:

Obama chastised Clinton (and rightfully so) for demagoguery when she joined with McCain on the gas tax during the primaries.

He stated then, clearly and eleoquently, the gas tax gimmick was just that, and it would do nothing to resolve the problems we face regarding energy use, or the long term price of gas.

Since discovering in June that the voters have changed THEIR minds based upon the skyrocketing cost of gas, and no longer oppose offshore drilling "as a means of addressing the cost of gas", but in fact now favor it, like the idiots John and Jill Q. Ill-Informed Voters that they are, McCain flip flopped HIS position on offshore drilling, and miraculously became FOR it, because that is what the pollsters and his advisors told him was "a winning position".

The pollsters and advisors are right. Since McCain flip flopped, and started supporting offshore drilling, his poll numbers have gone up so dramatically, he threatens to pull out in front of Obama in the swing states.

So, yesterday, AFTER the Congress adjourned without allowing a vote on offshore drilling (which allowed Obama to stand with his Congressional colleagues on this issue), this is what Obama also said (that I note no one here has bothered to quote):

From AP:

"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post."

What happened to the gimmickry?

What happened to the being good at governing?

The American voters need to be educated on this issue, just like they did (and do) on the reasons why Bush/Cheney lied about Iraq--that it wasn't Saddam Hussein who attacked us on 9/11, and that there was no evidence of him possessing weapons of mass destruction.

Our political leaders (sic) have a responsibility to do that educating on the issues, instead of just pandering for votes and switching your position on an issue of paramount importance to the nation in the cause of political expediency.

During the primaries, Obama stood up to Clinton and went against the polls. It was one of the only things he did during the primary--aside from his speech on race--that drew me to his side (I was a Richardson supporter).

He called out both Clinton and McCain for pandering and acting against the best interests of the nation.

This, my friends, is a deep, deep betrayal.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

Of course, since the oil companies aren't drilling at capacity in the areas where they are currently allowed to drill, it's pretty obvious that they are holding the high oil prices over our heads artificially as a way of coercing us into agreeing to let them have whatever they want. All the more reason to make them irrelevant as soon as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

dick greehaus, that quote you have now given us twice, doesn't even make sense grammatically, much less as a coherent rationale for changing one of the major policies of one's candidacy.

This is HUGE.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

So you think having the future president cave on his principaled stand on offshore drilling, when the Congress is also making a strong stand against it that gives him tremendous political cover for the fall campaign, is the way to go about it?

That is just crazy.

Everyone knows the price of gas is gouging, before Bush/Cheney leave office.

The price of gas is dropping. Obama had the political cover, leverage, and a principalled enough stand on the issue to weather the charges by McCain and the oil oligarchy, and still win in November.

Which truly does beg the question: who got to him and bought him off?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices


Comprehensive is the key word here. McCain is saying that allowing the oil companies to increase the area where they are allowed to drill will bring down oil prices.

Obama is saying that the proposed legislation that he is talking about "would repeal tax breaks for oil companies so that we can invest billions in fuel-efficient cars, help our automakers re-tool, and make a genuine commitment to renewable sources of energy like wind power, solar power, and the next generation of clean, affordable biofuels...

...Like all compromises, it also includes steps that I haven't always supported...I remain skeptical that new offshore drilling will bring down gas prices in the short-term or significantly reduce our oil dependence in the long-term".

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

So tell me CarolC, just how does flip flopping on offshore oil drilling bring down the cost of gas again?

Comprehensive is NOT a key word. The entire statement is subterfuge, intended to mask his flip.

Like I said, who got to him, and bought him off on this major issue of his candidacy?

The environment is one of the crown jewel causes of Obama the presidential candidate.

How does him flip flopping on something so basic, make him any different than McCain?

Answer: it doesn't.

Result: so what difference does make who I vote for?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Obama called both Clinton and McCain liars over the gas tax gimmick. He told the truth about that.

So why is Obama lying about it now?

Flipping his position on offshore drilling WILL NOT do ANYTHING now or in the future to bring down the cost of gas OR move forward legislation that insures a substantial investment in sustainable energy use and fuels.

You know it, I know it, the Obama and McCain camps both certainly know it.

So why are you trying to defend this?

It is a profound betrayal not just of Obama's base, but of the need to do what is right for country and for the environment. Just like Big Mick said.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

I thought that Obama was talking about the proposals of "the group of ten" as described here   in this link.

The compromise includes somethings that the Republicans would never support otherwise. Obama has always told the American people that he would compromise to get things done. I don't see a flip flop. I don't see a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

>>>So why is Obama lying about it now?

Flipping his position on offshore drilling WILL NOT do ANYTHING now or in the future to bring down the cost of gas OR move forward legislation that insures a substantial investment in sustainable energy use and fuels.<<<

Is Obama saying that it will bring down the short term price of gas? I have not heard that. The funding for sustainable alternatives is part of the compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

Obama very craftily linked the issue of offshore drilling to the cost of gas with this statement, to pander to the voters who already believe the two things are linked. Here is the quote where he does it:

"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices."

Obama's words, I copied the quote from the AP article.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM

And BTW, Jack the Sailor, this betrayal by Obama isn't targeted to people like you who will support Obama no matter what.

This flip is pandering demagoguery aimed squarely at right wing voters and centrist voters, who believe that offshore drilling and gas prices are linked.

Those are the gullible "buy anything from the guy I'd like to have a beer with and makes me feel safe" voters who, incidentally, elected Bush in 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

A comprehensive energy policy will gradually bring down gas prices over time. Offshore drilling is the LEAST efficient of the things that would make up such a policy, because of the long lead time in coming to market.

It is clear to me that he is simply playing table tennis with those who are insisting that offshore drilling is an answer when it is not, in order to get back some support somewhere else such as alternative energy credits or advanced tech research.

A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

Offshore drilling will do NOTHING to bring down gas prices now or any time in the future.

ALL energy experts agree on this.

Until yesterday, when Obama shot his Democratic Congressional colleagues in the back on their way out of town to the August recess, Obama agreed with it too.

Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

It is pretty tough to sugar coat betrayal.

This isn't table tennis. This is the most serious issue we face in our lifetimes.

We aren't talking the capital gains tax, or emergency funding for the economy here.

We are talking about the viability of our country, our national security interests, but more importantly even than those two things, the future viability of our children's and grandchildren's survivability.

A bit more significant than "table tennis" I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

If what we are told is true about supply and demand (an increase in demand creates an increase in prices), then what Obama is advocating would bring down prices. But it would do it far differently than what McCain is proposing. McCain wants to increase supply in order to bring down prices. Obama wants to decrease demand in order to bring down prices.

Different proposition entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

And again, there was no reason for him to "play table tennis" to get what he wanted in some vague "proposed legislation" in some far distant future theoretical debate about the energy crisis.

This is playing table tennis with our future, and a cynical, reprehensible act of betrayal, political pandering to stupid voters, and demagoguing while doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

He's just stating his position on a piece of legislation that is being discussed in the Senate. That's his job as a senator.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

And if you really believe what you just said to be the honest truth CarolC, why weren't you screaming from the rafters that Obama was wrong about this BEFORE he flipped his position yesterday, hmmm?

Answer: you are desperately trying to sugar coat and cover for his betrayal.

Very disingenuous, but what I expect from the crowd of Obama supporters who will support him no matter how much he changes his positions in order to get elected.

I guess that makes you guys pretty corruptable too.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

This is the same tactic Obama used when he flipped on FISA. He had been against the corps being given immunity, flipped on a Friday before a break, so that when it came time to vote on it again, the ruckus flap his flip flop caused wouldn't make headlines when the vote came up.

Thing is, Pelosi isn't going to back down on this one.

So where does that leave the distinguished junior senator from Illinois when the vote comes up after the recess, hmmm?

It isn't such a good idea to stab your allies in the back like this, especially in an election year, when you are losing your lead in the polls BEFORE the conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

I'm not screaming from the rafters because I'm not all that invested in Obama as a candidate for the presidency. I may vote for him, but I'm actually still a Kucinich supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM

>>Offshore drilling will do NOTHING to bring down gas prices now or any time in the future.

ALL energy experts agree on this.<<

That is not true. No energy experts are saying that. Do energy experts even have a clue?
Supply and demand and pricing is a job for economists.

What the experts in the government say the effect will be negligible ("a few cents a gallon"). and that production would not be seen for ten to fifteen words.

I hope that you will concede that there is a difference between their words and yours.

Another word you seem to be missing is "comprehensive". The problem Obama had with the McCain/Bush plan. The problem I had as well was that it was not comprehensive.   

Nuclear electricity generation, without great advances in electric cars has nearly nothing to do with the price of gas. Offshore drilling alone will have a negligible effect. But combine, those three things with recapturing coal carbon emissions, conservation and renewable sources like solar, wind, biofuels and hydrothermal then we will have a comprehensive strategy that can bring us safely into the future and help insure our security and prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

DV,

I don't see people in here as corruptable. I see people in here as I would hope that they see me.

As I see it, we all have our belief structures and they mean different things to different people.

In the presidential race, people in here are going to vote for the person that identifies the closest with what they believe. As I am.

Do I agree with McCain in everything that he does? Nope. Did I agree with Bush in everything that he did? Nope. But I supported Bush and I will support McCain because he is the presumptive nominee and just so happens to be the most identifiable in regards to what I believe.

Don't let a single issue or maybe two or three together put you off from even voting. Voting is the singlemost important thing that you can do as a citizen. Deciding NOT to vote is probably the most wreckless thing anyone could do.

And I think that everyone in here would agree with that statement. No matter what side of the fence you're on.


America '08!

YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

It's also important to point out that Obama is not saying that offshore drilling will bring down gas prices. In fact, I posted a quote from Obama saying he doesn't believe that offshore drilling will bring down gas prices.

What Obama is saying is that investing in other sources of energy besides petroleum is what will bring down gas prices. Anyone who is saying that Obama has said offshore drilling will bring down gas prices is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

If you support Bush and McCain, you are not a conservative by any logical definition. But you probably listen to too much talk radio.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

JTS,

Did you forget to take your medicine this morning?

It's a shame that you're missing your mid-afternoon saturday nap. It really makes you a bear!


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

Looks like I disagree with some of you some more.

Conservative...YES!!, I don't believe voting is the most important thing I do as a citizen. I don't even find it to be as important as jury duty, in fact, which I think is very important.

Also, if I follow your line of reasoning, that we Americans aren't corruptable, then I am denying the history of human kind.

Evil rarely forces us to routinely make excruciating and difficult ethical decisions. How evil wins is by allows us to rationalize away amorality and unethical decisions by others, and letting evil slide in right next to us without protesting or making a fuss.

The Democratic party and candidate in 2004 were able to suppress my vote with their amoral pandering.

Now, sadly, because I truly was hoping for much, much more from Obama, they've succeeded in suppressing my vote again.

Our nation and world needs someone to stand and fight against the evil of the last 8 years, not shake hands and make deals with it.

If Obama isn't willing to do that, then he doesn't deserve my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

If you're looking for a candidate who's inflexible enough to never compromise, try George W. Bush. Or maybe Ralph Nader, who hasn't accomplished anything notable in forty-odd years.

There are issues about which I think compromise is inappropriate--FISA is one of them. But fighting offshore drilling to the bitter end---that's like demanding that we formally renounce the Tooth Fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

No... You are not conservative.

Face facts.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

I know the difference between inflexibility and having the integrity to stand by one's principals, thanks.

I also know betrayal when I see it. Obama didn't just betray schmucks like me.

Far more dangerous for him in the run up to the fall season, he betrayed the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader, and stabbed them in the back while there was a House mutiny afoot by Republicans who refused to leave the chambers after Pelosi ended the session.

Or hadn't you heard about that?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

DV-
Just how were you betrayed?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

DV

I heard that there were a bunch of idiots standing on the House floor with the lights off. Do you actually think that such stunts make a difference?

If you are a single issue voter and your issue no offshore drilling then you have no one to vote for.

But if you somehow think that Obama has betrayed you, you are wrong. Obama did not say he was against all offshore drilling and Nuclear power. McCain did. Be careful not to take McCain's pronouncements on Obama's policies as Obama's policies.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

Here is what is making a difference.

McCain's ad w/Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears was brilliant. While all the cable and talk radio pundits were screaming about the celebrity issue, the swing states where the ad actually ran shows the voters were listening to the main message of that commercial the punditocracy conveniently overlooked: Obama and offshore drilling.

The message: Obama cares more about his own celebrity, than the fact that you little guys are hurting over gas prices. I'm FOR offshore drilling, so you get relief at the pump.

Obama betrayed the entire environmental movement, not just me.

And the environment happens to be the one issue that is sacred to me. I already knew Obama wouldn't share my views about the war, and it was utterly predictable that he wouldn't stand up to the Republicans on FISA, for fear of being swift boated on national security.

But as I said, the cause of the environment was the crown jewel in the Obama platform.

No more.

He may have done more, single handedly, to drive voters into the arms of Ralph Nader, than anything Nader could have hoped to do in a million years.

And that is not A Good Thing.

The Gang of Ten proposal was a last ditich desperation measure, to give the Republicans more fodder for their campaign commercials they'll be working on during their "summer vacations".

Obama flipped, because of the polls (he has tanked in the wake of his Europe visit/the McCain ads), or because somebody in the energy industries got to him.

It is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:58 PM

I am not against offshore drilling. I am against lying bastards who say it is a cure all for gas prices to get their fat cat oil buddies some new leases. So I am with Obama and you are welcome to your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM

Obama's position on drilling is now the same as Bush/McCain's position on this issue.

Congrats on being duped.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and to continue to support the trojan horse candidate of your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM

DV-
as an avowed single issue voter, I guess that means you're voting for Nader? or the Green Party?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

I wouldn't vote for Nader, ever.

And the Greens haven't been any more effective on the environment than have the Democrats, so no, I don't support them either.

You know, it seems to me there are a number of people here who might be readers of The Nation? And maybe they have seen the "Open Letter to Barack Obama" put on their homepage in recent days?

You can read it in it's entirety here:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/open_letter

It has been signed publicly by many of the progressive "celebrities" of the left, and says, in part:

"We urge you, then, to listen to the voices of the people who can lift you to the presidency and beyond.

Since your historic victory in the primary, there have been troubling signs that you are moving away from the core commitments shared by many who have supported your campaign, toward a more cautious and centrist stance--including, most notably, your vote for the FISA legislation granting telecom companies immunity from prosecution for illegal wiretapping, which angered and dismayed so many of your supporters.

We recognize that compromise is necessary in any democracy. We understand that the pressures brought to bear on those seeking the highest office are intense. But retreating from the stands that have been the signature of your campaign will weaken the movement whose vigorous backing you need in order to win and then deliver the change you have promised."

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

DV,

The differences are clear enough to those who will see them. I haven't been duped. I agreed with his position in the first place. I will say that I didn't like his position on FISA but I did agree with his vote FOR FISA, though I was against immunity for the telecoms. Otherwise Obama has been pretty much as I expected. Even though I am amazed by the number of lefties who have not being paying attention to what he has been saying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

So, you were against immunity for telecoms in the FISA bill before you were for it?

And you were against offshore drilling before you were for it?

And don't confuse "lefties" with Democrats. Most of the progressives I know usually vote Democrat or don't vote, and many of them have been on the fence regarding Obama since it became clear he would be the nominee.

Obama is looking more and more like a Lieberman Democrat every day.

Last night at a BBQ at a friend's house, an acquaintance said (as we discussed the offshore drilling flip), that now all we had to do was wait for Obama to choose McCain as him VP.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

DV,

A "Democrat" using Republican lines?

I was always for FISA and always against immunity. They are two separate things.

I was never against offshore drilling. But McCain and Bush are lying about its effect.

I've never been a Democrat. I have actively campaigned for Obama. I campaigned for him and will do so again because I have listened carefully to him and I think he is the best man with the best chance of making the progress I want and cleaning up Bush's mess.

Click on the link below and then in "chapters" go to "the nader issue" listen to that short section, the negative things he said about Bush and the damage he did is a pretty good summary of my position on US politics. We Can't afford FOUR MORE YEARS!

The nader issue.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM

Four more years is impossible. Bush isn't running.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:41 PM

Its possible. For more years of the same failed policies is looking almost likely.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:44 PM

Yes, and that's because there isn't a dimes worth of difference now between McCain and Obama, and looks like we are set to repeat the 2000 and 2004 elections without the hanging chads.

It is four more years guaranteed, if that is the yardstick you choose to measure the distance.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if DV has gone from the "very concerned" that Obama will lose the election to a one person Rovish wrecking crew here...

Me thinks that DV is no other than the very same GUEST that we have seen before... You know, like Dickey and Old Guy who were most likely George Bush plants/shills... Maybe a reinveneted Fantz... Same attack, attack, attack with no particular interst or caring about anything other than keeping the Bush administartion going full steam ahead...

Me sniffs a shill here...

I mean, what, 3000 friggin' anti-Obama posts in one day here in Mudville??? Hey, DV makin' McCain look l;ike an alter boy...lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM

And when reason and logic fail you, resort to the ad hominem?

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:18 PM

DV

You are not a hominem you are nameless and faceless. Ad trollinem maybe. I didn't believe you when you said you were supporting Obama. I don't believe what you are saying now. I think you are just trying to stir things up and to show how clever you are. You are clever, fairly clever. Why don't you just take a bow and be done with it?