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Subject: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 17 May 05 - 12:35 PM This is NOT a slagging/complaint thread. It is however serious. There are more brains kickin' around the 'cat than Carter had liver pills. 1) What's the problem? 2) What can we do to help? There are a gang of computer guys/gals here who know their stuff. However, until the problem is stated, there isn't much anyone can do. Bruce Murdoch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 May 05 - 12:39 PM Sorta got the hiccups [hiccoughs?] this end, starts fast fades early like a teenage lover. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 12:59 PM My guess would be that apathy at the helm is one of the major factors... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 17 May 05 - 01:18 PM That is bullshit, Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 17 May 05 - 01:20 PM If it was apathy, this site wouldn't exist at all. You know that. You have been carping this same litany for ages. You have few takers on that view. Allow me to re-ask the question because this has turned to a slagging thread by post three. 1) What's the problem? 2) What can we do to help? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: DougR Date: 17 May 05 - 01:28 PM brucie: perhaps you should better define the problem. I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 17 May 05 - 01:39 PM OK, Doug. Good point. The 'cat has been slow-loading for many moons--not consistently, but frequently. Of late, it has been a chore for folks from many places to get on the Mudcat. Hard to logon--or impossible, thus making it necessary to use the alternate server. The problem is not restricted to one locale or country. Today so far it has been a long wait to see if I could get on or if my computer would time out. Other people have had the same problem. My question was to management. Is there an identifiable problem, and if so, what can we do to help. We have brains here (I ain't one of 'em) who know lots about computers and systems, servers and hardwear/softwear. (Those things are just words to me.) But those things aren't just words to some Mudcatters. If I am told, for example, that I am posting too many things, I will cut down the number of posts. If it is something over which there can be control taken, then for me, I need to hear it from management. I love this place 99% of the time. It is a valuable site for many reasons for many people. Thus, my questions: 1) What's the problem? 2) What can we do to help? Thank you for asking that, Doug. PS I just called you a Republican on another thread. I should apologize for that. LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 01:55 PM SSSCCCCOOOOOORRRRRREEEEEE!!!!!!!!And the crowd goes wild!!!! A NEW RECORD!!! Used to be these threads would go maybe 25 or 30 posts before some dickwad jackleg like Clinton would start with that crap. But now in these days and times IT COMES IMMEDIATELY...much like Clinton I imagine. Oh well.........Everything else this thread might have to say has already come out in the first three posts so do you want to waste time with it brucie or do we just request it be closed now? (;<)) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 02:03 PM There ya go again spaw... your voice muffled by your butt... There are a bunch of things Max could do to generate a little revenue to help life mudcat outa the technological dark-ages it's stuck in... but he either doesn't want to or doesn't CARE to do any of them... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 17 May 05 - 02:12 PM Nice gesture Brucie - It seems to be a sad fact that volunteering to help - only makes things worse....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Jeri Date: 17 May 05 - 02:18 PM Clinton, you seem to have a thorough understanding of the problem. what do you think Max should use the money for? It IS frustrating, and I (unlike Clinton) have no idea what's causing the current problem, why it's gone on so long and whether there's any hope in sight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Michael Date: 17 May 05 - 02:57 PM 'There are a bunch of things max could do to generate a little revenue' Why Max? He has enough on keeping the system running. Why not Clinton? Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 17 May 05 - 03:02 PM Spaw, The question may have been asked in the first three posts, but the answer ain't been given yet. I do NOT perceive this to be Max's problem. In some ways the Mudcat is a community. So my questions were sincere. If there is something I--as a community member--can do to help, I would like to know what it is. If possible I would do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 03:26 PM New hardware (though I don't know the specifics) seems to be in order first off... at least that what it seems like from where I'm sitting... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 03:32 PM "Why Max? He has enough on keeping the system running." Apparently it's MORE than he can stand... 'Why not Clinton?' It's not MY web-site... and as below re: lowly end users... Brucie... my point is the OWNER has to want things done to improve Mudcat first... otherwise there's nothing that we, the lowly end-user can really do that matters... Short of not using mudcat at all... if NO ONE ever came here, the place'd never have any problems... But what then, would be the pont? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Little Robyn Date: 17 May 05 - 03:45 PM I thought it wasn't the hardware any more but those adverts that are tacked on all over the place that cause the thing to crash. Yes, I find it frustrating but just be patient. I wouldn't want Max to quit. Robyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 17 May 05 - 03:49 PM New hardware?!? What kind of hardware?? How about the software? How about the communication protocol/lines/links? Have to know the specifics involved before solving the problems. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 17 May 05 - 03:54 PM .... my first off guess (just a guess at this point) seems to think it has to do with the size of the database and how it is accessed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 04:02 PM "but just be patient." We've been enduring these issues for years... how 'patient' do we have to be? Especially when people keep asking over and over and over, "What can be done to help" and they keep gettind NO response... It's like the Exon Valdeze (sp?) all over again... " Have to know the specifics involved before solving the problems" And for that we'd need a communicative 'captain' and bridge crew at the helm of the "Good Ship Mudcat"... If they have been, I musta missed it... But when the 'news' pop-up is still going on about a virus wartning from January... and about the 2002 version of the digitrad... well... that says just as much to me about the state of the place as the terminal slowness and constant crashing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 17 May 05 - 05:13 PM There was on offense in your direction brucie. Indeed, we have been running these threads for years now as most of us are like you and would do what we could if we knew. Several times in the past we have had som major drives for funds and have had to drag Max kicking and screaming into the discussion. After the last one of those, Max was certainly grateful but he was also pretty definitive in saying enough of this! Mudcat is a community to be sure and I would suggest that a note to Pene or Max might be your best course of action in this case. This is never something that Max is comfortable dealing with and believe me, WE HAVE TRIED! Look back and you can find some significant fundraising threads! My problem with CH is that he has such a wonderful way of stating the obvious. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: LilyFestre Date: 17 May 05 - 05:23 PM You know, from where I sit, I think we all have to patient for however long it takes. This is a free site, nobody is getting paid to run it, so lighten the f*ck up and enjoy what's here. Yeah, it's slow sometimes, or sometimes I can't get into Mudcat for a day or two..yeah, I get frustrated too but getting pissed off at the guy who is in charge isn't going to do much of anything except maybe to sit back, flash some folks the bird and wait until the mood strikes to do something. I don't know Max or what kind of person he is, but the constant criticism is enough to drive anyone to the point of such a thing. So why not shut up and enjoy what's here unless you are constructively looking for a way to help? I think Brucie asked a good question with good intention. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: LilyFestre Date: 17 May 05 - 05:27 PM This part should have read as follows: I get frustrated too but getting pissed off at the guy who is in charge isn't going to do much of anything except maybe make him want to sit back, flash some folks the bird and wait until the mood strikes to do something. (sorry, my hands don't keep up with my brain sometimes....) Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 May 05 - 05:29 PM The only times Clinton has ever given any indication of the websites that he would like to see the Mudcat emulate, it's made me grateful for the way it is, for all its delays and outages. I'm sure there are things that could make it more consistently reliable. But not those things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 17 May 05 - 05:32 PM Hey, brucie: I truly appreciate the spirit of your initial post. I know that there are Catters who have far more expertise on computers than you and me (even Lassie knows more about computers than I do.) I can also understand the frustration of Spaw, in that conversations do become more of a "Hello, is anyone there?" I am deeply appreciative of Max and what he has done, and will enjoy the Cat on whatever level I can for as long as it is around. But, Max is kinda like the Wizard Of Oz. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.. You're a good man, brucie.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Once Famous Date: 17 May 05 - 05:34 PM Constipation. The site needs a laxative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 05:36 PM Most technophobes are like you McGrath... Know what website I wanna see Mudcat emulate? Mudcat... from a couple of years ago... when it was reliable, and quicker than any text only site needed to be... Now a-days, it seems to be down at least once a week or so... And well, I've accessed the internet faster over an etch-a-sketch than Mudcat is currently running... That the digitrad hasn't been updated for 3 years says more than I ever could... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: LilyFestre Date: 17 May 05 - 05:42 PM What if Max has gone and got himself a life? OMG! He has other priorities in his life than Mudcat. How dare he?!?!?!? *eye roll* Listen, if this site were something I were paying for, I'd be the first one in line to complain. Considering that I have access to all these resources for FREE, I'll be patient for as long as it takes. If that doesn't suit you, why not create a *better* site yourself? I don't get it. It's like a homeless guy bitching because someone gave him a green blanket instead of a blue one. Be glad it's here at all. Sheesh. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 17 May 05 - 05:55 PM Mudcat is not pure, original programming. It's based on a software package called ColdFusion. ColdFusion is an interesting program. Every time somebody goes to the Forum Menu, ColdFusion takes information from the database of messages and creates a new Forum menu Web page. Since we have almost 1.5 million messages and over 80,000 threads, this can be a very complex process. On top of that process are all sorts of specifications and customizations - but it all boils down to ColdFusion, and the limitations of that program. We also have occasional hardware and connection issues that can freeze things up, but ColdFusion is the usual suspect when things go wrong. I suppose Max could upgrade or replace ColdFusion, but that involves an investment of a lot of time and money - and all the new bugs that come with adapting to new software. When they encounter problems that make ColdFusion "hang," Max and Jeff have to devise workarounds. This, too, can be a complicated process. As I understand it, one of the shortcomings of ColdFusion is that it has a tendency to develop memory leaks that make the system freeze up. It wasn't so much of a problem when Max had a computer services company with a 24/7 staff available to reboot Mudcat whenever it froze, but he doesn't have that staff any more. So far, Clinton has not allocated funds for us to be able to employ a 24/7 staff. So, when it freezes, Mudcat stays frozen longer than it once did. There are times when Jeff can reboot Mudcat remotely, but that remote reboot doesn't work as well as we'd like it to. Since it's still in the experimental stage, Max and Jeff are the only ones who can reboot the system. I'm not sure why the "back door" access continues to work when www.mudcat.org shuts down - I imagine it's because the backdoor doesn't handle cookies and chat and all the extra features connected with the cookie system. So, that's more-or-less my understanding of what happens when it happens. Clinton, when are you going to come up with funding for staff for us? I suppose we could move Mudcat to some company that has 24/7 attendants, but that has other drawbacks. And somehow, I don't think Max wants to have a staff of Mudcat-watchers in his basement. That being the case, I guess it's best for us to learn to tolerate outages when they happen. Max and Jeff are well aware of the problems. I talk with Jeff about this sort of stuff all the time. Most times when there's an outage, somebody will get up and post impatient or critical messages. Worse yet, they try to give advice. I can't imagine that sort of response makes Max and Jeff feel good about what they do. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 06:04 PM "Be glad it's here at all." What a pussy-ass mentality... I hope you (And the others who have expressed the same sentiment at this and other elements of Mudcat) don't live your WHOLE life with that attitude... Women never woulda got the vote... Blacks never woulda been allowed to drink from 'white' water fountains... Not that the issues that Mudcat has are anywhere near THAT important, but only through people standing up and asking "WTF is wrong with this!?!" do such issues get cleared up... Not that I expect this thread will achieve any more than any of the other countless "WTF is Wrong With This Place Now" threads that people have started over the last couple of years... And well, it's not like Mudcat is the ONLY place for folk music discussion on the net... That so many other good folk music sites don't even KNOW it exists is testament enough to that... What keeps me bitching? I came here a few years ago, and the place was great... and I met some very cool folks... now the place has gone to hell, but some of the cool folks have stayed... I stay to keep in touch with them... and well, because I'd like to see Mudcat returned to even a shadow of it's former glory... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: LilyFestre Date: 17 May 05 - 06:12 PM Nobody said that asking what is wrong is a problem CH. Nobody at all. In fact, what was asked, is what can WE do to help? YOUR response is like a tantruming 2 year old who wants something done when he wants it. I'm not going to be rude to the folks who have created this site whether it has glitches or not. I'm glad it's here. "Pussy ass mentality"...your words say it all buddy. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 06:18 PM The forum isn't all that valuable of a resource, and certainly not with the bullshit search engines here. The valuable resource at this website is now, and always has been, the DT. The DT is being held hostage, and it's owners are not allowing it to be utilized to it's fullest. Many very knowledgeable people who truly value the DT as a resource have volunteered to help update and maintain it, create a newer, better, faster, and accurate search engine, all to no avail. The owners don't give a shit what the end users want. They are passive aggressive jerks, holding the best song database hostage, and thumbing their nose at those who would be able to help. It is for this reason I think Max is a real jerk. I could give a shit about the Romper Room forum. If it was gone tomorrow, you would hear my evil cackle booming loudly across folk cyber space. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 05 - 06:22 PM I guess the thing we can do that would help most is to be patient. Sooner or later, Max and Jeff will resolve things. Well-intentioned advice often comes out sounding almost as insulting as the posts from dear, sweet, well-mannered Clinton. Donations help, though. Click for donation information. I suppose it would really help if somebody could teach Clinton about manners, consideration, and generosity. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 17 May 05 - 06:24 PM "I'm not going to be rude to the folks who have created this site" I wasn't rude to them either... I was rude to you... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 06:27 PM Why in god's name would anyone keep pouring their hard earned money down the Mudcat rat-hole, when nothing ever changes? Isn't 5+ years patient enough? Just how many years of patience (and fleecing of the forum) should people coming here be expected to have? Reasonably speaking, I think people have shown too much patience. You want to see change, sometimes you have to be willing to shake things up--especially at the late date we have arrived at waiting around for Max to get off his ass, or hand the resource over to someone who is actually willing to do something with it other than sit on it and collect spare change from the occassional deluded users "fund drives". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 06:32 PM Clinton, Give us links to other good folk sites, if you have time. Mudcat will still likely stay on the top of my Favorites list though. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 17 May 05 - 06:35 PM Thank you, Joe. If there is nowt I can do to help, then that's the way it is. If there is something I can do to help, please let me know. If a clone would like to close this thread, that's fine with me. I promise never to call it censorship. I have enjoyed myself more on the Mudcat than I have for many years. Met some very intelligent, brilliant people and had more laughs than I've had for decades. So I will never 'dis' Max, Pene or the 'nameless' ones under any circumstance. Just wanted to know and my question has been answered by you. Thanks again. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Don Firth Date: 17 May 05 - 06:39 PM Thanks for the clues, Joe. I found myself wondering. During the past few weeks I've been on-line only sporadically because I recently opted to drop my dial-up connection in favor of cable, and for maximum flexibility for my wife and me, I've been struggling, with little success, to set up a wireless home network. I just learned recently that a friend writes books on this sort of stuff, so having reached a point of extreme frustration, I picked up the phone and called in the cavalry. He came over yesterday and set the system up for Barbara and me. Bless his heart! It works like a charm! Bloody uncanny! The first thing I did this morning was to go cruising cyberspace. Things load in the blink of an eye. Incredible! It's a whole new world. Not just streaking along at warp speed, it's practically instantaneous! So I zoomed in on Mudcat. And it took f o r e v e r to load. Same for individual threads. 30 to 45 seconds, sometimes over a minute for a page to load, not always, apparently, depending on the number of messages. And sometimes the little green worm at the bottom of the page crawls halfway across its box and just stops. I''m fairly computer literate, but I'm no whiz, and I just spent a couple of weeks ripping out what's left of my hair while trying to work my way through what is touted as being a fairly simple set-up process. Nothing like this for getting clue as to just how frustrating computers can be, so I'm not about to bitch about other people having computer problems. But--beside whining and complaining and/or trying to learn patience, is there anything anybody can do to help? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 17 May 05 - 07:06 PM Thanks Joe for the. All Bruce asked for was some feedback from us on the tech problems with the Mudcat. Then there are those that take this as there own soapbox to pathetically whine about the 'good old' days and express some limited knowledge on computer technology without providing constructive remedies. Either contribute Bruce's request in a positive manner or stay away. Simple as that. Funny, it's these type of people that rant and rant in a negative manner about what is wrong with society. Take a look into a mirror. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 17 May 05 - 07:56 PM BTW that was ... thanks for the input Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Leadfingers Date: 17 May 05 - 08:33 PM No One I know has ever suggested to me that there is a better Folk Music site than Mudcat , but I have only been involved in Folk Music for Forty odd years , and havent met EVERYONE in the UK folk scene . I have been a member here for only four or five years , and have had some great times both on line and at Mud Gathers , met some good guys and gals , good musos and just listeners , and all for FREE !!! I will go along with Bruce on this and agree that IF we were told what was required , perhaps we COULD help , but if there is nothing we CAN do to help , perhaps a message to that effect would make it easier for the ones who (it seems) cant live without their cat fix to put up with the situation . Just sniping at Max and the Clones is not going to achieve anyting , except to annoy the people who CAN do something about things . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 05 - 09:31 PM In my past life, when I had to work for a living, we had a computer system that was down continually, and our laptop computers had a software package that had some really stupid features that made us take scads of time to do very simple things. A word processor would have worked better for us, but it dod not gather the statistics that management wanted so they could keep track of us. So, we got stuck with unreliable mainframe service and inadequate laptop software. AND, when the mainframe or the laptops weren't working and prevented us from getting reports in on time, managment considered it OUR fault because we hadn't anticipated the possibility of an outage and gotten reports in ahead of time. My employer's computer service was far more unreliable than Mudcat, and my career depended on it. So, I get offended by people who bellyache about my friends Max and Jeff, people who seem to forget that Max and Jeff do all their work without pay. Clinton is a primary offender, but there are others. I'd bet they don't know a damn thing about ColdFusion, or SQL, or Web Servers. People have often suggested that it would be nice if Max or Jeff would post a notice explaining why Mudcat is down, but I can't see a great deal of value in that. The Clones and I usually post a message in the Help Forum explaining THAT Mudcat is down when it is, and suggesting alternatives. I can't see where an additional message from Max or Jeff would be helpful - it's better for them to get right to work fixing whatever needs fixing. I can't do the fixing, so it's my job to post the notices - they're in the Help Forum, which is usually still working when Mudcat is down. The Url for the Help forum is easy to remember - help.mudcat.org So, Clinton, why don't you tell us what right you have to make all these know-it-all remarks? How's your knowledge of Cold Fusion? SQL? Web servers? As far as I can see, the only skill you've exhibited is your ability to post insults. -Joe Offer- Oh, by the way, if you're posting something long when Mudcat is being unreliable, it's a good idea to save the post first as a text file on your own computer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 09:58 PM Oh please. There are plenty of people passionate about this music, willing to work for free too, just to be able to maximize the resource that is the DT. But Max won't let them help. Why? Good question. Why? A question that Max also refuses to answer. He's a jerk, and a jerk who by his inattentiveness, is wasting what was once the best folk music database online. Which is why so many music people have written this place and the DT off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: dwditty Date: 17 May 05 - 10:04 PM Guest, I think it is fortunate that you, at least, have not written Mudcat and DT off. It's great that you are here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 17 May 05 - 10:24 PM It is more than OK by me if this thread gets closed. Bruce Murdoch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 05 - 10:25 PM Dick Greenhaus has said that the Digital Tradition is free, and people can do what they want with it. Our self-righteous Guest is free to take the DT and make it better. But our Guest is too busy trolling. Same with Clinton. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: LilyFestre Date: 17 May 05 - 10:30 PM Clinton, I think you should reread some of your posts. I'm not about to get in a pissing contest with you about this. You can view the situation as you please and I will do the same. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Gypsy Date: 17 May 05 - 10:38 PM Once again, thanks to all the volunteers who do ALL the work to keep the site going. And of course, if you really are unhappy with the site folks, you don't have to log on to it, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 10:46 PM Clinton isn't the one who NEEDS to know anything about Cold Fusion, SQL, or Web servers. The people who claim to be running Mudcat should though. Apparently they do not. Or what they do know is not up to the challenge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 17 May 05 - 11:24 PM Bruce .... at least you tried ! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Bill D Date: 17 May 05 - 11:26 PM Mudcat has been here for 3,150 days, and I have been here for 3,127 of them, and I have seen it go from fast with few features, to faster as Max & Jeff added new tricks, to slower as MANY folks discovered it, to faster and stronger as they added new machines, to slower as those machines wore out and Max's business faltered and no longer supported it, but still MANY new features were added......and eventually to the point where Max had to move and keep Mudcat going on less reliable lines and with very few redundancies. Through it all, it has been here 'almost' constantly and has allowed many, many people to do many, many wonderful and important things even beyond finding some words to songs. During this time I have MET Max, Jeff, & Joe Offer on numerous occasions and discussed, in person a lot of this with them, and I KNOW they care and are trying to make it all work. Those who, like some anonymous critics..(and one who at least has the balls to be obnoxious to your face)..call anything less than perfect a failure, should try understanding just how much FREE work has gone into this amazing place and how tempting it must be at times for Max to say "screw it" and leave a blank spot on the WWW where a community used to be! Like EVERY community, though, there are always a few grumpy folks who complain if you don't mow your yard often enough or if your dog barks or if your pickup truck has a loud muffler. Clinton...and all you cowardly assholes who won't USE your names...shut the fuck up and let 'em work on it, and be glad you can use the place MOST of the time! I wish it were faster and more reliable too, but I have faith that it WILL be again...and I'll be here as long as Max and his crew have the will to keep it here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 May 05 - 11:43 PM "I have faith that it WILL be again..." Then you have more faith than I do. Bully for you, BillD. Do you want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? "as long as Max and his crew have the will to keep it here" Sometimes (more often than not lately) it seems as if that time has already passed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 17 May 05 - 11:46 PM Calling all clones: It's OK by me if this thread is closed now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,The Shambles Date: 18 May 05 - 03:24 AM Brucie - if you don't open it (or post to it) again - this thread IS effectively closed (for you). If this one is closed - another 3 will be only created in its place anyway. Please don't encourage our volunteers into action - they don't need any. They already feel themselves qualified to do exactly as they wish with our contributions - as a matter of routine - anyway............ Perhaps operating for periods with this 'back door' is intentional as way Max has of preventing them from tinkering with our contributions? Have you ever had your contributions tinkered with Missus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 18 May 05 - 03:50 AM No, this isn't the type of thread we close, anyhow. We don't close Shambles threads, either - we just let him prove himself to be what he is. Not much more I can say on the subject of Mudcat outages, though. Them's the facts. If the facts aren't satisfactory, start another site. Maybe we should just leave the thread, and Clinton and Janet and Shambles can have their troll a trois in private. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,The Shambles Date: 18 May 05 - 04:15 AM We don't close Shambles threads, either - we just let him prove himself to be what he is Which is what exactly? But whatever it may be - it is not a liar. As you would not wish to be thought a liar - perhaps Joe you may like to reconsider and correct your statement about 'we' not closing Shambles threads? Especially in the light of the fact that I seem to be unique - in having a thread that I originated closed by you - not only once but twice? Do you wish me to post the link to this evidence - or will you accept that your public statement to our forum - was untrue and correct it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 May 05 - 04:31 AM Flying like a bird this morning, thanks guys! Giok ¦¬] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 18 May 05 - 04:55 AM How typical Joe. You've no answers so you descend into flaming. "If the facts aren't satisfactory" What facts? Step up or step off (The same goes for "Mudcat". Put up or shut up. Either address the issues at hand or go away. This middling ground is less than worthless.) "Clinton...shut the fuck up" Now who's being 'childish'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 May 05 - 05:14 AM Well our nice Mr Guest would appear not to be a resident of the US, unless he/she/it is a night shift worker. G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 18 May 05 - 11:22 AM Clinton...and all you cowardly assholes who won't USE your names...shut the fuck up and let 'em work on it, and be glad you can use the place MOST of the time! Not wheeling out the old double standard again are you Bill - along with the abusive personal attack? But you know of course that your posts - no matter how abusive or disgruntled - will be safe from any censorship. Or have you changed your mind and now also consider our anonymous volunteers to be cowardly - for not being prepared to use their names but still feeling qualified to impose their judgement upon the contributions of their fellow posters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Once Famous Date: 18 May 05 - 11:53 AM I would like to contribute to Mudcat. Let me just reach into my pocket, and oh, there it is. It's my middle finger on my right hand sticking straight up and in your general direction. Hi Clinton. Like the heat? Around 60 posts and I wasn't even mentioned. Sheesh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 May 05 - 12:57 PM " Hi Clinton. Like the heat? " I think it's they who are feeling the heat... otherwise they wouldn't mewl and bawl so loudly... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 18 May 05 - 01:01 PM Shambles...nope to all questions |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 18 May 05 - 01:19 PM Clinton tries hard to be like Martin Gibson, but he just can't cut it. Doesn't have the class or the wit. At least you can laugh at MG's threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 May 05 - 01:24 PM Why would I bother? We have one MG already... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 05 - 01:52 PM Well, at least as distinct from Marty, we know that Clinton is an actual, working musician. Just logged in this morning and right now the Cat seems to be fairly perky. But some folks are so busy being cranky that they apparently haven't noticed. Sure, it'll probably continue to have its less enthusiastic moments until some wealthy benefactor lays a wad of funds on Max -- or the Vulcans land and assist with some more advanced technology. But in the meantime, The Mudcat Café is here. Where would you be if it weren't? And what would you be bitching about then? Sure, it would be very nice if the Cat were always right there when we wanted it and it always loaded fast. But until then, I'm glad it's here at all. In the meantime, the lunch at The Mudcat Café is free. So -- once in a while it's closed. And once in a while, when it's open, the waiter is a bit slow. Bitching and complaining can be counterproductive. How about some positive, helpful suggestions? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 May 05 - 02:01 PM "Where would you be if it weren't?" Elsewhere... missing a few people from here, but likely not missing this place itself... the internet is too ephmemeral to get attached to a 'space' that doesn't even realy exist in the first place... "And what would you be bitching about then? " Oh, I'm sure I could find something... The human race provides SO much material fot that alone! " positive, helpful suggestions?" I, and others HAVE made them... the seem to fall on ears of the finest cloth... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: robomatic Date: 18 May 05 - 02:12 PM It would be nice if someone posted something technically informative re: this great forum from time to time in a place we could find it. If that is already happening I'm unaware. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,MMario Date: 18 May 05 - 02:26 PM if the source of problems are known the problem is usually posted in the help forum. help.mudcat.org/threads.cfm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: robomatic Date: 18 May 05 - 02:34 PM Thanks, but maybe there could be a FAQ sheet occasionally updated, or a techfaqs available from quicklinks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,MMario Date: 18 May 05 - 02:36 PM With what info? I'm confused |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: robomatic Date: 18 May 05 - 02:49 PM It would be nice if someone in the know would occasionally explain why Mudcat goes down or goes very very slow, as it has been doing rather often of late. I eventually come back to the forum with no idea of why I couldn't access it, and I don't know where to find out what was wrong or if it could go wrong again, or if it was planned (or unplanned) maintenance. Put simply, being informed makes people feel better about things. I thought that was the genesis of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 18 May 05 - 02:49 PM Anything updated occasionally would be nice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Once Famous Date: 18 May 05 - 03:15 PM Oh Don! Don! No, it's not Jack Benny calling for Don Wilson. It's me telling Don firth, that as a working musician, please don't come to any of my gigs for I don't like playing for the severly aged. i don't do any Lawrance Welk. I try to keep my gigs more on the upbeat side. Even like to get people to sing along. Naval gazers like Don just bring down the fun of it. Clinton, you keep at it, ya here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Wolfgang Date: 18 May 05 - 03:56 PM Shambles, you are a liar! The thread you mean has not been closed twice. The first time it was not closed actually as you surely know for you have posted after what you count as the first closure. See what I do? I take what you post out of context, read not what you mean but take your words verbatim and blow the issue up completely out of proportion ('liar'). Do you recognise that style? It is what you do. Now, without the ill will: (1) 'Shambles threads' can easily be read as 'threads about Shambles pet theme' and I have not yet seen one of these being closed. If you had read in the last couple of weeks what others have written in 'Shambles threads' you'd have seen that personal attacks can lead to thread closures. And that can happen (and haasa happened) even if there are personal attacks upon you in a thread started by you. (2) And, of course, you are not a 'liar' when you just count the announcement of thread closure and the actual closure as two different closures (which makes some sens if one realises that these two events were separated by several years. The sad truth is you are not a liar in 'Shambles threads' Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 05 - 05:02 PM Marty, Marty, Marty! No, not Marty Feldman, but it's a bit difficult to see eye-to-eye with him either. But at least he's funny, which you haven't quite managed yet. Have no fear about my ever coming to one of your gigs. I like bluegrass, but I don't think you know the difference between bluegrass and crab grass. Severly [sic] aged? [You still can't type for shit, eh?] No, in my case, my advanced age is known among the cognoscenti as "vintage." I'm a Historical Site; a candidate for being declared a National Treasure. That's a bit better than your problem of constituting a Local Embarrassment. Have you ever thought of becoming a remittance man ? Look it up You're certainly qualified. Naval gazer? I live across Puget Sound from the Bremerton Naval Shipyard, but due to local topography, I can't actually see it from here, so I could hardly be regarded as a "naval gazer." Or did you mean "navel gazer?" You really should learn how to spell – or type. Lawrence who? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Ebbie Date: 18 May 05 - 05:29 PM "It's me telling Don firth, that as a working musician, please don't come to any of my gigs for I don't like playing for the severly aged." MG LOL Marvin, you evidently are aware that behavior like yours is not likely to lead to old age for you, "severly" or not, so I can see why you don't consider us oldies your peers. 'Tis just as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 18 May 05 - 05:46 PM I like old people. Especially grouchy old people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 18 May 05 - 06:03 PM awww...that's the nicest thing you ever said to me, brucie... ;>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: kendall Date: 18 May 05 - 06:05 PM I don't understand some people at all. They act like they are addicted to something, and suddenly, their dealer is not available, so they have withdrawal symptoms! Is it possible that the problem is too many members that are overloading the system? If so, how about we get rid of the mal- contents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 18 May 05 - 06:13 PM LOL I will call you that when you get old. Y'ain't there yet. Old to me is over 105. Old keeps getting further and further away from the age of 57. Love being around 95 year olds. They always say, "Young man, would you get me some tea, please?" Of course, I say yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 18 May 05 - 06:21 PM brucie....my hero, Elbert Schlotzhauer, recently died at 98. Ten years ago, I helped him drive to Kansas to a Wood Collectors meeting, and he was not a bit grouchy then. Nor was he 3 years later, the last time I saw him. Maybe that was his secret. The Social Security administration says I am "old enough", but I think I'll use your's and Elbert's outlook for my daily activities.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 18 May 05 - 06:40 PM Ebbie, you are not old. Don't even start to think that. You have a phenomenal wit, great sense of humour, and IMO you are a wonderful gal. Like the line from the song: "This truck's a little old but that don't mean she's slow". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 05 - 06:57 PM I plan on going out in a sky-diving accident sometime well after my 110th birthday (maybe later). That way, the ending is quick, the view is nice on the way down, and as I hurtle toward the earth, I can keep thinking, "Well, so far, so good!" Marty seems hung up on what he supposes are debilities brought about by growing older, and it's obvious that he tends to regard older people with a measure of contempt. That's okay, Marty, I don't mind a bit. I find it rather amusing, actually. Just wait awhile. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Ebbie Date: 18 May 05 - 07:19 PM LOL Trust me, brucie- I'm s l o w. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 May 05 - 09:36 PM I thank the secret MudElf who sent me a gift of the Blue Plate Special CDs. Now I have the chance to hear many of the people I have bumped into do some music, each in their own style. One of the many positive things about the Mudcat! (P.S. I do know who it is now!) Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Once Famous Date: 18 May 05 - 11:11 PM Ebbie, I believe you when you say you are slow. I also [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)believe you when you say you forgot what an orgasm feels like since the one you last felt when you went horseback riding at age 15, some 65 years ago.
And Don, I am glad you like bluegrass. I know that your favorite bluegrass banjo player is Eddie Peabody and that you dig out all of his old records looking for the one where he plays Foggy Mountain breakdown with a flatpick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 19 May 05 - 12:10 AM the mudcat's slow, Ebbie's slow, Brucie's old, Clinton's lost the old times, MG has bleepin problems with his communication protocal, Max just won't communicate, Guest just won't leave, too many members, not enuff system, and the view is nice on the way down Jeezuz .... wish European championship poker was on TV rite now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 19 May 05 - 12:31 AM Oh, gee. Sh----es caught me. He'll call it a lie, but it was a mistake. Yes, I do close Sh----es threads when people are finished posting to them. Otherwise, Sh----es brings them back to life weeks or months or years later, which many people consider obnoxious. Sh----es likes repetition. I've been having trouble with MSN and Hotmail. I wonder if Clinton and Janet could go off to Microsoft and kick butt, instead of picking on poor Max. Windows XP could use some butt-kicking, too. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 19 May 05 - 01:06 AM I graduated with distinction with a B Ed in Secondary Education from U of Alberta when I was 38. I took up firefighting when I was just turning 47. One year later I became an Emergency Medical Responder and worked ambulance in a rural area for four years while continuing to respond to calls with the fire department--as a volunteer with both fire and ambulance. (My final EMR course mark was 97%--from a respected post-secondary school in Alberta.) I had a total hip replacement when I was 52. Two months after the hip replacement I was responding to fire calls and back with ambulance (and also back in my martial art class. I continue to do the fire work--as a volunteer--and I respond to about 75-85 calls per year; everything from structure fires to hazmat to MVCs to other types of rescue work. Hey, y'all, some of us don't even hit our stride until we turn forty. And I'm still looking forward to finding out what I'll be when I grow up. Age? Yeah, it does slow me down a bit--but on the bright side, it gives younger people a chance to keep up. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 19 May 05 - 01:11 AM PS None of the above is meant to be a brag sheet. Simple statements of fact. Age is part of the life process. Goes with the turf. Ya may not like it, but it is lots better than the alternative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 05 - 02:18 AM Yes, I do close Sh----es threads when people are finished posting to them. Otherwise, Sh----es brings them back to life weeks or months or years later, which many people consider obnoxious. Joe Offer. The only way to ensure that people are finished posting to them - is for our volunteers to prevent this - by closing them. This is another area of confusion for posters - caused by this imposed personal judgement or routine 'meddling'. Starting new threads - when there may be threads already on the subject - is judged by our volunteers as wrong. And refreshing an old thread is also judged by them as wrong. Recently before starting a new thread I did a search (as instructed) and found one that I could refresh. I scrolled all the way down to the end - to find that the thread had been closed - as a matter of routine! The software does not judge the refreshing of threads as 'obnoxious' - so until it does - perhaps our volunteers face reality and stop imposing their judgement upon us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 05 - 03:09 AM The details are in the following thread - let us leave our forum to decide? Can closed threads be re-opened? Perhaps it would be better if all threads were automatically closed a certain time after they fall-off the end of the page? Perhaps it would be better if all threads remained open? It would certainly be better for everyone (in the long run) if all threads (and all posters) were treated consistently and any censorship here - was seen always to be open, fair and have a clear objective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 05 - 03:16 AM Clinton...and all you cowardly assholes who won't USE your names...shut the fuck up and let 'em work on it, and be glad you can use the place MOST of the time! Perhaps it can be explained why the abusive personal attack and anti-social behavior above from Bill D - is safe from censorship - when the following in the same thread is not? Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Martin Gibson - PM Date: 18 May 05 - 11:11 PM Ebbie, I believe you when you say you are slow. I also [bleep] (for antisocial behavior) believe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 05 - 06:03 AM "Perhaps it can be explained why..." There's an expression "Get a life!" which gets very much overused, and I generally dislike it - but there are some occasions when it seems appropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: kendall Date: 19 May 05 - 07:21 AM Eddy Peabody played Bluegrass? Since when? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 19 May 05 - 07:45 AM Re: Brucie's post on 19 May 05 - 01:06 AM Well, I'm impressed! Mudcat people lead such interesting lifes!! I'm sure that I'm not alone in saying "Thank you, Brucie, for working to make life [and Mudcat] a better place. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: RobbieWilson Date: 19 May 05 - 07:58 AM Thank you to everyone who makes the Mudcat happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 May 05 - 08:11 AM It's not 'The Mudcat' - it's the people! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 19 May 05 - 08:22 AM I'm with Azizi all the way on thanking Bruce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 19 May 05 - 08:25 AM 100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Paco Rabanne Date: 19 May 05 - 08:28 AM Oh well held GUEST! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 19 May 05 - 08:44 AM All you Mudcat junkies are extremely paranoid about losing your precious forum. I guess that's why these stupid threads are guaranteed to go over 100 threads every single time. It's highly entertaining to watch you all prostrate yourselves before the forum altar to get your boot licks in to your high priest Max. Wouldn't want to displease the great and powerful Maxie boy, now would you? He might take away your toy "folk" (spit) forum, and then what would ye do? Where would ye go? Ye would be so lonely, drifting through cold, hard hearted folk cyberspace, alone...without Max's dickhead clone defenders to protect you from your own and one another's cyber-excesses and rotten behavior. Max obviously couldn't care less about the lot of you--if he did, he would either do something himself to correct the problems, or he would turn the website over to someone who actually gives a shit about the DT to manage--like real, grown up websites are. He could have turned over this place long ago to someone with actual knowledge, talent, skill and ability with computers, music applications, etc. Which wouldn't include Hierophant Joe. As to the Mudcat propensity to send money to "poor Max", then "wait patiently" for something to actually get fixed with it, all I can say is: SUCKAS!!! As all yer daddies always said--you get what you pay for, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 19 May 05 - 09:56 AM GUEST, When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Me, I would hate to lose the Mudcat. It contains the most diverse and interesting people I have ever met. I know it also means a great deal to you, too, because you get so passionate with your posts. As to threads that generate over 100 posts, I did one on sheep shaggin' and it pops up now and then. Chris Nightbird did one on lines from songs--phrases--and it took off like a prairie fire on a hot, windy day. Hell, people have varied and occasionally strange interests. Stuff above the line appeals to me, not because I will ever be a music scholar, but because it gives me the opportunity to use Mr Google to help people find stuff. Low-level stuff, true, but it gives me the opportunity to help someone else. Time is valuable, but people are more valuable than time. I get a kick outta wishing people I don't know a happy birthday. I love the wit displayed by some folks. I am interested in the human condition. So, yes. I would very much miss the Mudcat. Hell, GUEST, I'd even miss you. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 05 - 01:08 PM If I'm at a party I'm enjoying, and a few of the guests keep spitting in the face of the host who's paying for the beer, I do get concerned that all the spitting may finally convince the host that it's time to turn out the lights and go to bed. And yes, I think it's realistic to ask people to accept that this is a privately-owned site that cannot be staffed 24 hours a day, and that such an operation has a number of limitations. I suppose it could be moved to a 24-hour operation if we spent enough money to do it, but there are other reasons why we haven't done that. But if somebody has a lot of money and wants to pay for that, I'm sure Dick Greenhaus would be glad to allow the new site to make full use of the Digital Tradition. If Shambles and Clinton and Janet and others have so many better ways to operate things, why in the world haven't they started a Website to provide all these wonders to the rest of us? So, I suppose it all boils down to this: if you don't like the party, go home. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,MMario Date: 19 May 05 - 01:14 PM while I heartily agree with you Joe - and you have taken a LOT longer to say it then I would have; boy have you just given sh**bles a qoutable qoute to cut and paste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 19 May 05 - 01:39 PM Joe, I'll go one better: If after all this you are still here, you must want to be here, no matter how much you complain. Therefore your complaints can be ignored. The site is to your liking as it is. Further complaints say more about you than they say about the site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 19 May 05 - 01:43 PM As for Roger Shambling, he'd quote anything. He has little that's original to say. The proof of that is splattered all over hundreds of his postings over dozens of threads, over the last few years. He won't stop. Neither will he go away. He likes it here. And we like him here too. He's given us hours of fun - pointless, but fun nevertheless. Let's hear it for the regurgitators! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 19 May 05 - 02:04 PM "why in the world haven't they started a Website to provide all these wonders to the rest of us?" For fear you would visit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,jOhn Date: 19 May 05 - 03:29 PM Who's Janet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 19 May 05 - 03:34 PM As to much better resources than Mudcat on the web, the list is now fairly extensive: English folk and traditional music on the Internet A list of bazillions of chat sites for all kinds of music Traditional Music Links page Since the DT is mostly an Anglo American song database, there are plenty of other resources online for the non-Anglo oriented: Alan Ng's excellent site the wonderful Gaelic Crossings site which has pretty active pure drop chat forums Richard Moon's tune database (a beautifully designed site). He even has links to click on to show how to contribute and help with the database! Imagine that, someone who actually invites people in to help rather than ignores them and collects their money like Max does! The excellent (and my personal current fave) tradmusic.com Anyone who thinks Mudcat is the best the web has to offer for traditional, folk, and blues music and related chat is either addicted to this website, or too lazy to look at all the vast richness the web has to offer that is far superior to anyting here. And has been for a couple of years now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 May 05 - 04:22 PM I suspect most mudcatters are too techno-phobic, (or tardic) to bother looking for other options... and too afraid what it might mean to their little perceptions of their world if they FOUND that there's better than Mudcat out there... "someone who actually invites people in to help rather than ignores them and collects their money" Radical idea eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,MMario Date: 19 May 05 - 04:29 PM yeah - Max is really getting rich collecting money from people - why I bet he may have even covered expenses for more then one month last year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 May 05 - 04:38 PM "he may have even covered expenses for more then one month last year" And the place runs like it too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 May 05 - 07:32 PM "Let's hear it for the regurgitators!" You started a new group El Greko? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: JennyO Date: 20 May 05 - 08:59 AM Checking out this site for the first time. Why not use "vBulletin" or "Invision Power Board" like other forums? My $0.02 (Son of JennyO) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 20 May 05 - 09:29 AM Not me, Robin, not me! Like others, I too am a member of 3-4 different folk music fora. They all serve slightly different purposes and slightly different communities, and they all do a pretty decent job of it, by and large. Mudcat may not be as advanced a forum technically, as others of its kind. And discussion in it may not reach the high levels of academic discourse that one can find in other fora. It does have two advantages however: a) The Mudcat community is the most diverse, both geographically, and in musical tastes (and even in interpretations of what is "folk" and what is "traditional"). I find this aspect invigorating because through the various conversations I constantly find out interesting things on musical branches of "folk" that I know little about. b) The Mudcat community is (partly) a physical community too, as many of its members have met, and several do so regularly. My estimate is that about 90-100 of the UK Mudcatters have met each other, and an equivalent number in the US. And several of us have shaken hands across the water too. This lends Mudcat a "reality" that other fora cannot, and makes for conversations on a different level (for better AND for worse). So, Mudcat is not the ultimate in folk music fora, but then none of them is. What does it matter? We visit different restaurants for different reasons, and the same is fine for music fora too. But as long as Mudcat has good things for me, I will be here picking among the threads for the little gems. So far the pickings are very good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,The Shambles Date: 20 May 05 - 09:30 AM If I'm at a party I'm enjoying, and a few of the guests keep spitting in the face of the host who's paying for the beer, I do get concerned that all the spitting may finally convince the host that it's time to turn out the lights and go to bed. If that were the reality - it may be a concern. But our host has kindly permitted all their guests to bring their own beer and to have many parties in their house. If they can't manage to keep the house open 24 hours a day - most of the guest would be grateful for the time that it is open. So, I suppose it all boils down to this: if you don't like the party, go home. Many of have been enjoying the party pretty good until some of the guests feel qualified to start 'spitting' upon their fellow guests. If you want to spit on people - perhaps you should go find another party - or host your own - where this is the object? Rather than attempt to take-over the parties in Max's house - steal their beer and insult the other invited guests? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 09:39 AM you really do inhabit an alternate reality, don't you shambles? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: kendall Date: 20 May 05 - 10:16 AM Not to put too fine a point on it, all you mal contents, if you don't like it, I'd like to help you out. Now, which way did you come in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Bubble Burster Date: 20 May 05 - 01:46 PM It never ceases to amaze me that Mudcatters believe this is a unique community because people know and/or have met each other. This is true of most the music forums I've ever participated in, and is in no way unique to Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 02:02 PM OK. So what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 20 May 05 - 02:24 PM "... Mudcatters believe this is a unique community..." who said unique? The point is, it HAS become a community to man, many of its members, whether they have met in person or not. I have friends I have met from here, and friends I have never met...as far away as Australia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 20 May 05 - 02:30 PM I have posters from all over world who are now encouraged to post just to judge me and to call me names.........*Smiles* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Bubble Burster Date: 20 May 05 - 02:31 PM It also isn't very diverse, and is quite Anglocentric. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Ebbie Date: 20 May 05 - 02:46 PM Burble Buster, I don't get your point. We are saying that the Mudcat serves a function here that we enjoy. There is no reason that other sites may not do the same. Mudcat happens to be the one that we mostly frequent and are grateful for the chance to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 02:51 PM Ebbie, that is all you are saying, but it isn't everyone is saying. The claim that Mudcat is unique in all cyberspace is one often made by the Mudcat xenophobes and agoraphobes, as is the claim by the Mudcat computer luddites that this site works just fine for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 20 May 05 - 02:59 PM Bubble Burster, You said 'it' isn't diverse and is quite Anglocentric". I guess it depends on what you mean by 'it'. In my 9 months on Mudcat I have 'met' a number of people here from numerous places throughout the world who are extremely knowledgable about a diverse number of music and non-music topics. While I would love to see a increase in the number of Mudcat posters who are people of color, I have to disagree with you that the resources available in the archives -posts, Permathreads, and Digital Tradition- aren't diverse {meaning that they are only from and about Anglo music and issues that only relate to persons of Anglo descent}. I would also add that with very few exceptions, I have found Mudcatters to be open to and enthusiastic about diversity. I would ask you Bubble Burster, are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution? What have you done lately to add non-Anglo music to Mudcat? And what have you done lately to spread the word to people of color about this rich resource? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,MMario Date: 20 May 05 - 03:16 PM we do have the russian folk songbook up in the quick links. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 03:30 PM Azizi, it is true people here are from North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand--and that is all over the world. But culturally, the vast majority of posters here are Anglo, Anglo American, Anglo Aussie, or Anglo Kiwi (almost unanimous with few exceptions, in fact, like Wolfgang and our friend from Iceland). There is a reason why historians refer to the US and Canada as "British North America". The discussion of music here is almost exclusively Anglo American and Anglo from the UK, in other words. Hence, not so diverse. Not much discussion round here of non-Anglo American music cultures like Cajun, Acadian, Tejano, etc etc etc...or Maori music, or the Australian aboriginal music cultures. Or even of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, or Breton Celtic music cultures for that matter (though the folks interested in the Anglo tradition are often also interested in the Celtic music cultures and vice versa). The folks with interests in the Celtic music cultures congregate elsewhere on the web, and would most definitely describe this website as "British and American" with "American" being their default setting for Anglo American. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 03:44 PM Well, as long as they're happy and people here are happy, what's the problem? There are no locks on the doors. Neither comin' or goin'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,Azizi Date: 20 May 05 - 03:54 PM Guest, I'm not sure that I would agree with you that there is 'not much discussion round here of non-Anglo American music cultures'. Even if I conceded your point, what is your response to my points? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 03:57 PM No problem with the self-selecting of music discussed. Zero, zip, zilch. Just pedantically correcting misconceptions and wild claims about Mudcat is all. So what's the problem-o with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 04:16 PM Azizi, it would be a waste of time to attempt to "add" to the DT because it isn't being updated anymore, and the search engine used to search the DT and forum haven't been upgraded. That doesn't make it obsolete as a resource for what it is, but it makes it obsolete as a resource that is being regularly managed, maintained, and expanded upon. I haven't done anything to "spread the word" of Mudcat to anyone, because I don't agree that is rich or particularly valuable. For academic purposes, there are far superior resources available online. I can't imagine any academics using this site as a legitimate academic resource (though the "ethnomusicology" field is full of fluff and nutters, so I'm sure there are some who would use it and possibly even cite it in their work). For the professional musician, I don't think there is much of value here, again, because of poor indexing, cross-referencing, and search capabilities, not to mention that many of the "8,000+ songs" are multiple versions of the same song. And don't even get me going about the "links" section. Does that answer your points raised? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 04:31 PM Dick Greenhaus would be astounded to learn the DT isn't being updated. The search engine seems to be functioning - it returns results posted a few minutes ago as well as years ago. the 8000 plus songs is more like 9000 plus songs - not counting the ones on the forum that aren't in the DT. Academic site, no. But that doesn't mean that people can't raise the academic level. Malcolm Douglas certainly has a right to complain about that if anyone does - but contributes regularly. and have you noticed the furor that occurs when indexing and cross referencing are ATTEMPTED? Not that that has stopped the progress - but it is being done by volunteers and there are over 148 thousand messages to wade through. A number of pro musicians seem to find the mudcat a congenial place and a source of answers for some questions. Primary source, I doubt it, but a source yes. So the picture isn't as bad as painted, even if it isn't as rosy as others would have it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 20 May 05 - 04:42 PM Guest. To each his {or her} own. I am neither an academic {or whatever the noun is} nor am I a professional musician so I can't speak for those populations. But as a 'regular' person who loves learning about music and folk cultures and is interested in exchanging comments about those and other topics with people from diverse places that I will probably never visit, I consider the Mudcat experience to be very 'rich'. I'm staying. I'm adding information to the mix. And I'm telling others about Mudcat. Ms. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 06:40 PM I do not like peanut butter mixed with chocolate. To me it tastes awful. So, I don't eat it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 06:41 PM Nor do I complain about people who do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 20 May 05 - 06:58 PM Right brucie. Which begs the question, why do those who love Mudcat feel they have a right to complain about those of us expressing an opinion which disagrees with theirs? It isn't like loving Mudcat is a prerequisite to visiting and using the site any way a person wants to use it. So why draw the battle lines? People disagree about the value of the website, and some people use the website differently than others. So why is it so important that you "win"? Why is it so important to you that EVERYONE feel the same way you or Azizi or Ebbie feels about it? Trying to impose a unanimous consensus about something so arbitrary, ambiguous, and subjective is really kinda stupid, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 May 05 - 07:54 PM Some people seem unable to differentiate between the DT as available for download to run as a standalone local application (last Edition 2002) and the online version, which is a vibrant mix of the DT pages and the current threads. Could their musical taste be any better? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 20 May 05 - 07:56 PM Okay, Guest. I'll say it another way: "It's your thing. Do what you wanna do." "It's your thing"="It's your choice" [whether you wanna spend any time on Mudcat or spend it elsewhere doing whatever]. In my way of thinking, "To each his own" and "Do your thing" are the exact opposite of "trying to impose a unanimous consensus about something". And Guest, who said that 'EVERYONE' had to use this discussion forum the same way or feel the same way about the Mudcat community??? "Not me" {said Azizi}. Other people can and will speak for themselves if they want to. Ms. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 May 05 - 08:06 PM I'm still hoping sometime someone will pick out an online music community which has the qualities I value in the Mudcat, just in case it goes down some time and doesn't rise again. (Someone with a name that is, since I skim past the nameless ones in these kinds of threads, on principle.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 08:07 PM "So why draw the battle lines?" GUEST, I don't give a rat's ass how you feel about the Mudcat. Trust me on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 20 May 05 - 08:11 PM You are free to think my views are stupid, idiotic, etc. That's cool with me. You are more than entitled to hold the views you have. And argue them, and restate them. That's one of the things I like about the place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 05 - 11:16 PM I can't for the life of me figure out why anybody would criticize a fine --and free-- service -----Joe's party analogy is perfect----which has linked people from around the world, sometimes even literally, and has provided untold wealth in musical knowledge, humor, recipes, different political perspectives--and the list goes on------in fact a window on many different worlds. Yet the same people (on this thread) keep whining over and over. If you have preferable alternatives, guess what---you are free to go. Somehow we'll survive without you. So Mudcat goes down from time to time, and may stay down for a while. I am told there are other things I could be doing around home---imagine that! When it goes down, that removes temptation, which otherwise ain't easy to resist. Surely the gripers have something else to do with their lives. How about practicing or playing music.? For anybody above adolescence, instant gratification should not be a requirement for existence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 21 May 05 - 03:03 AM and have you noticed the furor that occurs when indexing and cross referencing are ATTEMPTED? Not that that has stopped the progress - but it is being done by volunteers and there are over 148 thousand messages to wade through. Whatever some folk may wish to think is our forum's priority and whatever steps this few may take to impose this view upon everyone else - the fact remains that this is a discussion forum that Max has opened to all the public - where the public's views are valued equally. The posters should be respected and their contributions (freely given to all the Mudcat Community) should perhaps remain as the poster intended - unless they agree to any change.............. If they agree - then call it indexing. If their agreement is not sought or given - it is routine imposed censorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 21 May 05 - 04:36 AM Censorship on Mudcat The full details can be seen on the above thread – but the following is the gist of my question and the answer given (in brown). Joe am I take it from this as OFFICIAL that my suggestion is rejected and that you intend to carry on imposing your personal tastes upon the titles chosen by fellow posters - as you wish - without their knowledge or consent? Or (as it is NOT in brown writing) is this just you expressing your personal opinion? Yes, Shambles, you may take that as official. Your proposal has been noted, but it has been rejected because it imposes a cumbersome procedure and restriction upon our volunteers, a procedure which appears to be unnecessary. Note, however, that efforts ARE made to respect and preserve the thread originator's work. Ordinarily, the original thread title remains intact in the original message in the thread. Also, thread titles are usually altered by augmentation of the original title by the addition of a clarifying word or phrase, preserving the original title if space allows. If it appears that a thread originator may have trouble locating the thread after a title change, the originator is usually contacted by e-mail or personal message with information on how to locate the thread. -Joe Offer- Party-on............ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: kendall Date: 21 May 05 - 04:30 PM What would you do if someone entered your home uninvited to a party and pissed all over everything, insulted your guests and wouldn't leave? I know what I'd do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Clinton Hammond Date: 21 May 05 - 04:33 PM This is not a 'home' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Shambles Date: 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM Posting judgements of those who post things on our forum - that you may not approve of - does not prevent them from posting things you may not approve of. In fact - the evidence shows that it will probably only encourage them to continue. Encouraging and approving of the imposed judgement involved in deleting the things you may not approve of - after they have been posted - will not prevent them from being posted. In fact - the evidence shows that this will only encourage them to continue to be posted. The only thing you have any control over - is what you choose to read - post or ignore. When all posters finally accept this reality and cease with all the judgement of their fellow posters and we can all return to posting on an equal basis - there will be some hope for the future of our forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: DougR Date: 21 May 05 - 07:31 PM brucie: thanks for the clarification. Joe Offer: thanks for the explanation. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 21 May 05 - 07:33 PM Doug, The sky is falling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 21 May 05 - 09:51 PM Say, I was wondering, does anybody know how to fix a broken record? I'm copying Debby McClatchy's LP's onto CD for her, and there are a couple that get stuck at certain points and play the same thing over and over again. I figured if I can solve the LP problem, maybe I could solve the problem of Shambles, too. He has repeated himself so often that I forget what exactly it is that he wants. All I hear is that damn skipping sound, over and over again. I've grown to hate the man who invented copy-paste. It's an "enabling factor" for people like Shambles, who never seem to have a new idea.... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: dwditty Date: 21 May 05 - 10:15 PM Put 2 nickles on the tone arm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 21 May 05 - 11:22 PM Oh, yes. That old MASH episode with Radar playing 'the old tone-arm cobra. I used to give it a smack. Sometimes it would just sail right on off the record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 May 05 - 01:14 AM Putting weight on the tone arm only wears the record and needle faster, it may cause the needle to take the correct path. With skill and practice you can place a finger near the tone arm such that when the needle skips, you can guide it along the correct path, I used to do it. Well, Joe, I know that works for some stuck records, but I really can't help you any further.... Now, as for teaching a pig to sing.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,brucie Date: 22 May 05 - 01:32 AM Not THAT old saw: Don't ever try to teach a pig to sing because it's a waste of your time and it irritates the cat. I never understood that expression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 May 05 - 01:39 AM So when's your next concert brucie? BTW, anybody want to loan me some fly-buy points? Planning on leaving town.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 22 May 05 - 03:01 AM When the boat is sinking - it may not be a new idea to start manning the punps and start bailing-out - but it would be a good idea. It would not be very a good idea to ignore the suggestion that bailing-out was good idea - just because you had ignored it before. Under these circumstances - it would not be such good idea to just carry-on arranging the deckchairs. Glug - Glug - Glug............... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,The Shambles Date: 22 May 05 - 03:35 AM Man the pumps! Your proposal has been noted, but it has been rejected because it imposes a cumbersome procedure and restriction upon our volunteers, a procedure which appears to be unnecessary. GLUG - Glug - glug - gl............*Smiles* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 22 May 05 - 04:33 AM There is something deeply offensive and nasty in someone predicting (or warning about) the demise of anything with a smile. Having plumbed new depths of iniquity, Mr Nasty Troll might consider an apology. I said might. Something tells me that he'll slither away from that one too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 May 05 - 07:36 AM You know El Greko, any old fool can log in as GUEST and hijack a thread. This is not a new idea... Glug glug, glug... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: GUEST,kendall Date: 22 May 05 - 07:50 AM After you, Guest |
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Subject: RE: BS: Re the Mudcat From: Peace Date: 22 May 05 - 10:11 PM "So when's your next concert brucie?" I'll be in my grave before that happens, Robin. I haven't worked in music for over 20 years. Hope I'm still allowed to post here, though. BM |
