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BS: Catholic come all-ye
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Subject: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:16 PM I want the pope gone. How do we do this? Petitions? Letters? The idea of protecting a man who tied little boys up in the rectory is even a little much for Shanty Irish me. Done. Finite. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:06 PM Simply ignore everything he does or says. Most of the Catholics I know have always been heretical on any examinable point of doctrine (my late mother included), and there's a strong precedent- back in the 14th century there were TWO popes, so all the Catholics were ignoring at least one of them. And don't worry about not believing what he says- HE doesn't either, and neither do the rest of the clergy. Otherwise he could have said, I've got the power to loose and bind, and if you've ever abused children, you turn yourself in pronto, otherwise it's fryup time when you die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: SINSULL Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:15 PM I am a "fallen" catholic and have no regrets. I do remember, however, how much comfort the faith of my youth gave me and I pity the believers who are caught up in what is essentially a political mess. I wish them all well. Mary |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:18 PM I rather think he has to die, mg. No other way that I know of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM He'll be dead before Christmas, I'd bet me shirt on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:25 PM Oooo Kayyyy. But mg doesn't get to vote on the new one either. Unless she has a red hat I don't know about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM Maybe go back to the Hereditary thing? LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:36 PM Well, Benny just appointed a Head Guy in Los Angeles who really distresses me. The new guy is Opus Dei, like right out of the Da Vinci Code... Oh, Mary, Rome has never, ever listened to a petition, a letter, or an advisory committee. Paul VI appointed a committee who told him to ease off on the birth control regulations, and he ignored them. There is an International Commission on English in the Liturgy that did a wonderful translation of the prayers for Mass into English that people actually speak, and Rome threw it out and substituted words like "consubstantial." Hell, Rome barely listens to an Ecumenical Council of all the world's bishops, as is evidenced by the dismantling of Vatican II that has happened over the last 30 years. So, as Paul Burke says, the best thing to do is ignore them. Benny is an old, old man. He'll die soon, and be replaced by somebody worse... -Joe-
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:07 PM He'll need to be coated in teflon.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:11 PM We cannot ignore a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory. Do you understand? We are guilty of a serious sin of ommission if we ignore. We have to do something to get rid of him. Start writing your bishops..no start writing or keep writing to newspapers and attorney generals of your states and cc the bishop. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: ClaireBear Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM It's heartbreaking that MG is in the position of having to ask this question. I feel for her. It is troubling to see an organization with a top-down hierarchical structure that has no formal mechanism for giving a voice to those who are on the lowest rung in that hierarchy. This is one reason I left the Catholic church, despite my Jesuit edication and generations of family history, and joined the Episcopal one. There, the hierarchy is intended to work from the bottom up -- via the people's chosen representatives at least. Simplistically stated, the community have the power and are the employers of the clergy. This of course is not a perfect system either, but it's a lot better than an absolute monarchy, particularly one that will by its nature always place one gender in the position of being able to dictate the behavior of the other. I wish you peace, MG, in whatever course you choose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: ClaireBear Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM And success, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM Mary, don't you think it's a bit strong to speak of "a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory." He allowed the guy to be transferred thirty years ago, instead of referring him for prosecution; and chances are that he did not realize how serious the problem was. He should have done better, but I do think you're being a bit overly dramatic. I do think it's important to avoid the soap opera and stick to the facts. So, what WERE the facts? We still don't know. It's time for the bishops to tell us. The time for secrecy is long past, because the bishops showed us they could not be trusted to act properly under cover of secrecy. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: michaelr Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM The obvious solution is to abandon religious faith altogether. After all, it's just a crutch for the feeble-minded. Then all the popes, mullahs, and TV evangelists simply cease to matter. Why not try facing reality instead? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Rapparee Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:59 PM The US, Ireland, France, Germany and who knows where else are all "lost" to the Vatican. Italy, I suppose, as well. When nuns in the US tell the Conference of Bishops "We support Obama's health care bill because we're on the front lines and you're sitting in a Chancery somewhere" -- the bishops are losing their power AND their touch with the laity (not to mention the nuns). As the Vatican disassembles Vatican II and turns more and more to the "I'm right on heaven and on earth" of previous centuries, more and more laity will find the Vatican unnecessary. As friends of ours once said, "We don't let our Church interfere with our Religion." There are extraordinary things going on, great changes are coming -- but like the beginnings of the Reformation, the Vatican has its head in...the sand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:00 PM Well, I suppose, Michael - but if you have faith, and it means something you, why abandon it? My faith is part of who I am. Yes, much of the basis of that faith may be myth, but myth can often lead to deep truth. Kinda like believing in art or poetry or the beauty of life and love and nature, ya know? - except that I believe in a Being who is the incarnation of all that is good. And in 61 years of life, that belief has never once led me to do something contrary to what is good. I do wrong lots of times, but not as part of my belief. Yes, there are lots of people who seem to use their beliefs as justification for wrongdoing. But it doesn't work that way for me. My faith is a source of joy and goodness, and a call to do justice. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM Reality? Would that be the same reality that the contents of the universe are merely a holographic projection from its borders, or the reality that the earth doesn't travel in a circle, but space time is curved, or the reality that solid objects are, when analyzed on a microscopic level, discovered to be comprised more than 90% of nothing but space? ... Stehen Hawking says that the probability of there being a personal God is extremely low. It is also true that the probablility f there being intelligent life in this universe is also extremely low. Yet here we are. What is real? What is normal? Whats it all about? Your guess is as good as mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:11 PM A weak mind clings onto safe familiar things like tables and chairs and is unable to see beyond them. A scientific mind advocates no absolutes, but merely enquires and observes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:27 PM Mary...there are powers and voices much more influential than you or I or any of 'us' which are currently speaking out on this situation. There are few ways to depose someone like the pope, and even though he seems to have shown a lack of understanding of the problem, it merely shows he was being 'political' about his lapses back then, and any 'defender' could claim it's not grounds for impeachment...or whatever church routine might exist. Joe is right...the man is 80+ and can't be here a lot longer, and perhaps THIS scandal will affect who is voted in next time......maybe.....perhaps... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: John P Date: 10 Apr 10 - 12:23 PM The Catholic Church should be hounded out of existence. They engaged in decades of aiding and abetting pedophiles. Anyone who knew anything and didn't call the police ought to be in jail. Since this includes, apparently, most of the top officers of the organization, the organization as whole is guilty of supporting international child rape. No, the organization IS an international child rape ring. We got the KKK and their ilk with the RICO law. We should do the same for the church, and hit them with a fine so huge that they have to sell everything and then still be in debt for the rest of time. All civilized nations should put out arrest warrants for the Pope and any other top church officials who ever knew anything about this and didn't report it. Harsh, you say? How about if it was any other group engaging in organized child rape for decades? Being a big church doesn't give them a free pass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: SINSULL Date: 10 Apr 10 - 01:32 PM I expect a "new" church to come out of this at least in the US. It will not sever its ties with Rome but it will also not bow to Rome's will. We will see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:00 PM Well, if you just pray hard enough, Mary, that should do it, shouldn't it? Or you could just shoot him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM Whether a pope is wise or foolish or good or bad doesn't really make all that difference to me as a Catholic. It really isn't that kind of an operation. We've had some real shockers in the past and come through. There's a Spanish proverb that translates as "God writes straight with crooked lines". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:22 PM I'm not sure you can arrest a foreign head of state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM Tying young children (or the elderly or anyone) up is a crime? If they are out of control, what do you do? Sedate them with drugs? Beat them until they get in line like breaking a bronco? Go walk around the psych ward at your local hospital and tell me you want all the restrained people set free. Tell me you want violent rebellious children and teenagers or anyone to be allowed free reign without consequences. Of course, maybe these little angels were set upon by a closely knit society of deviants which exist in the RC church and are directed by the pope... maybe they have a secret handshake... and have a protocol for taking in these little angels and feeding and clothing them and educating them so they can subject them to nefarious sexual degradation. Quite a conspiracy that may exist, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM What on earth was that about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM Are you saying that these err "little angels" as you put it, were being restrained for the purpose of preventing them from being "violent [&] rebellious"? Well I'd imagine that you'd be violent & rebellious if a man in a frock was buggering you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:55 PM I must say I find Gnu's comments puzzling and uncharacteristic. There are numerous ways of handling misbehaving children that don't involve ropes. However, the catholic church is made up of over a billion people, and less than 1% of them have any links with abuse, be they abusers or abused. The church is only going to collapse in the minds of those who want it to. the overwhelming majority of catholics will remain faithful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:20 PM http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-third-strike.html#more This is by Andrew Sullivan. Please read every word of this and please write to Andrew Sullivan, Bill O'Reilly and Maureen Dowd, as well as your local newspapers. CC the bishops but don't bother writing directly to them..or do if you want. Especially if you are Catholic. And if you were for one minute, you still are, so don't worry about your status in the church. It can't be worse than the pope's. Somewhere in Andrews's blog is a picture in the styule of a holy card of a little altar boy. FInd it and weep. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/page/3/ Scroll down about 2/3 of page and it should be there. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM Really? Who said the man in the frock was buggering you to begin with? You all should really back up and think this through. If you were placed in charge of 50 or 100 or more children, some of which were abandoned because the parents could NOT manage their behaviour for whatever reason, how would you deal with them? Would YOU drug them or beat them? Good lord. Are you all so insulated and pure that you have never heard that some human beings must be retrained to prevent injury to others or to themselves? If that is a crime I expect you to open up your home to such people. Take in an elderly dimentia patient and provide 24 hour supervision so they don't wander off into the cold in the middle of the night. Take in a child that needs the same. The RC church does. And, if they HAVE to be restrained, it's done. Uncharacteristic? No. Truthful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:41 PM I see Gnu... You do come out with some weird shit man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM CS... I wish we all lived in your perfect world. Tell me, how would you deal with with a violent individual you were charged with? Seriously... own up and tell me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM The children in question were tied up by the Priest, prior to being sexually assaulted by him. Otherwise, in answer to your question, I'd ask social services for assistance rather than tying up anyone - unless my life depended on it - which is highly unlikely in the instance of a child much smaller than me. I do know it was a method of restraint much abused by bad patents in the old days. I have older friends who recall being tied to their cots while their parents went out to party for the evening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM Oh? I don't recall that part about the sexual assault being in the first post. So, I think I will leave youse all to your imaginations and simply say that my posts are factual and give opinions and food for thought. If you don't want to think, have fun with it. BTW... social services takes deranged people to the proper medical authorities and facilities where they are "tied up" if required, so that you don't have to take any responsibility for your pontification. Walk a mile... walk a mile before you cast stones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM Gnu, sorry - I imagine that you didn't know the details of the case and that's where your posts were coming from? Or maybe you don't believe them? But otherwise, it's a very iffy idea to me to tie up children, however "rebellious" they might be. I can't run with that, at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:10 PM Oh, cross posted there! I'll walk a mile in the shoes of social services, only when I've been properly trained to do so. We have social services so that people properly experienced can make the best choices for the care of "deranged" people. Otherwise, we'd all still have secret "Mad Aunts" (brothers/nieces/wives etc.) locked up in the attic or basement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:33 PM We cannot ignore a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory. Do you understand? We are guilty of a serious sin of ommission if we ignore. MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations? Reports of the incident(s) are sketchy. My understanding is that the priest was tried - by civil authorities - and sentenced to three months probation. That seems pretty lenient for tying little boys up, a charge that could amount to kidnapping and a life sentence. That the priest did SOMETHING he should not have done is farily certain. I'd like to know more about what really happened. Wouldn't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM I remember watching a fly on the wall documentary about a group of teenagers, who were taken to south africa by their social workers for the adventure of a lifetime, in which they would work with animals on a game reserve. Nearly all the kids in question had had traumatic early childhoods and were 'troublemakers' back home in the inner city. The idea was to get them out of the box so they could have a chance to see it from a different angle. For most of the kids this was a lifechanging experience, and many went on to pursue their hopes and aspirations and developed careers. But there was one girl who was simply unable to benefit from the opportunity. She was unable to compare herself with the local people, who had it much tougher but were able to be considerate, optimistic and co-operate with each other. She was also unable to operate within the boundaries that were set by the group leaders, and her way of dealing with it was to throw tantrums. She was warned very clearly that if her behaviour didn't change that she would be sedated, bound, and put on a flight back to the UK where she would then be released ... back into the wild ... as it were ... She sadly couldn't help herself though, and she ended up throwing yet another unreasonable wobbly, in response to which the group followed through with their warning, and restrained her, bound her, sedated her and put her on a plane. Se had not been violent, but her behaviour was simply unmanageable using other means, and they could not afford to allow her to blackmail them with bad behaviour. So sometimes young people are bound by their carers when there is no other alternative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM Apparently the church is talking about introducing child protection schemes world-wide based on those in operation within the Catholic Church in England and Wales. Any bets on the next pope being English? How'll that go down in Ireland? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:20 PM An interesting idea - Vatican III |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:28 PM "Our goal is to help get the Catholic Church to be more like Jesus." As a person interested in living Spirituality and indeed Christianity, it sounds fairly sensible to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations? Its OK, Bee- Mary just forgot to put her tinfoil hat on, again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: banjoman Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:30 AM As a Catholic of almost 67 years and having survived an education by those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers, I have thought long & hard about my faith. My conclusion is that it has nothing to do with the Vatican or anything else within organised religion. The reason that I still go to Mass is because I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to. Having said that, I have great respect for those hard working priests and laity who continue behind the scenes to provide support and counselling for so many, including those who have been victims of abuse. Remember that it is a small minority (perhaps inclding Pope Benedict) who are bringing the church and religion in general into disrepute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 11 Apr 10 - 07:31 AM A small minority, but powerful. And that's the underlying problem. Because We Can. Without a hierarchical power structure (which in Ireland extended right down to the local priests) the situation would not have become so bad. People simply did not dare question, or cross, the Church. Power did what power always eventually does. > I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to. HEAR, HEAR. Well spoken, and I could not agree more. But it will be small comfort to Rome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:37 AM If there were indeed a Jesus, Peter and all the others and IF they had the divine nature attributed to them, (there is, after all, a difference of opinion about all that), what I know about the legends suggests that 'true belief' in what began as a simple man with strong powers and empathy for other, does not require huge cathedrals, an enormous hierarchy, an entire city-state owned and administered for propagation of the faith, and a set of rules and a celibate priesthood to oversee those rules. It seems obvious to me and many others that the current problems are a direct result of too much money, power and structure striving to retain all those trappings FOR the basic purpose of just having them, no matter what the basic message is supposed to be. We see the same type of "close ranks and hide scandals" in police forces, the military and various political and corporate organizations. That used to be easier before all the modern technology made 'connecting the dots' and reporting abuses easier for both the abused and the investigators. The church will need to EITHER adapt and clean house or face being broken up into smaller, independent groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: akenaton Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM Posted to the other thread by mistake! "Just been reading that studies have found, people of "homosexual orientation" make up between 20 and 50 percent of the priesthood. Given the very high volume of homosexual assaults(not paedophelia, paedophelia is in fact quite rare in the Church)do you not think that this represents a link between male homosexuality and the abuse of post pubescent teenagers and young adults. Let the perpetrators be brought to justice....find out the truth about the sexual behaviour of priests. The cover up was a separate crime which should also be investigated, but even if the pope was forced to resign, the abuse of youths would continue until a proper balance of sexual orientation is struck among priests. The longer I live, the more I become convinced that homosexual practice and the abuse pubescent boys is linked. Scrap the rule and ordain married heterosexual priests....the abuse will fall sharply." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM banjoman- I totally agree. The decent in the Catholic Church- as in the rest of society- vastly outnumber the vile. But the big problem we have to face- the Church and society as a whole- is why the decent are ALWAYS outweighed by the vile. The child abuse scandal could be taken as a parable of our society's whole approach to inequality. Sexual abuse is not the only destroyer of the human soul. Poverty- by which don't mean only lack of money, but in the wider sense of the denial of opportunity to develop- is the enemy. And it is profitable- the powerless can be deprived of resources and land (see Europe, America and China in Africa), culture (plundered for fashion - Callino Custur Me perhaps), self respect, and finally, when defenceless, of power over their own body cavities- to me there's not a great gulf between the Catholic (or in former times Church of England) minister abusing his charges, and the sex tourism of South East Asia. So the whole scandal to me falls down to, how do the decent folks- Catholic, Baptist, C of E, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, whatever- combine without creating a new organisation with the power structures that created the abuse in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM ...those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers... They make GREAT brandy though! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:58 PM I think there is a mechanism for the pope to resign, and that is for every one of us who hates this drama to insist that he do. I would suspect that even now he is looking for a way out...he could simply say I do not have the stamina for this, or the credentials and I am a living embodiment of the scandal. People have said Cardinal O'Malley was good at getting things in order..I don't know anything about him but Pope O'Malley has a nice ring to it. I have written to the Seattle Times and Portland Oregonian, and plan to find out who the archibishops are of Clermont Iowa, and Dingle Ireland, where my ancestors are from. Anyone know? I will google. No mas, no more. mg |