Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:03 AM

Subject: Why was this thread closed twice?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24-Aug-04 - 09:15 AM

Why was it thought necessary for the following thread to be closed, not once but twice?

Now if this is stting a 'heavy' tone - perhaps a word can be found for the tone of some of the subsequent responses?

But the tone was set by the action taken. Imposing judgement on the perfectly acceptable and invited contributions of many posters by deleting or closing a thread without their knowledge or permission - I feel is - always far too heavy.

Joe used to set a good example and I fully supported this. Then using the stick was thought to be preferable example to the use of the carrot. I would simply like to see less of the divisive use of the stick and for folk who volunteer for positions of responsibilty to accept that the example they set for others to follow - must always be above question.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:20 AM

Lucky I caught this - it nearly slipped off the bottom of the list.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:21 AM

It should have been established through all the anti-guest nonsense that first of all people posting anonymously is not generally popular by other posters - even if when this is clearly thought OK by Max.

Thankfully we do seem to have moved-on a little from this one and generally recognise that what name is used - is matter for the poster.

Also it is clear that when posting as a guest - folk will receive a lot of criticism directed at guests that they may not have earned. For there are many reasons why folk do not choose to become members or use their real (or even a consistent) name.

The same is true of the word 'volunteer'. When I question the actions of one volunteer - this tends to be seen by them as questioning (or even a personal attackon) them all.

A defensive reaction to this may be understandable and for all I know - all of the posters to this thread could be one of our anonymous volunteers! If they were - their views expressed here may be seen in a different light?

I really think that anonymous volunteers who are able and encouraged to judge, delete and close entire threads - is over the top and as it is never going to be generally popular and the results of volunteers defending this practice is so devisive - perhaps a review can take place?

If it generally thought that posters should be prepared to own their views - is it really too much to expect that all volunteers are seen to own their own actions? Perhaps if they are not so prepared - the abilty to judge and impose editing action upon others should not be given?

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:11 AM

"If it generally thought that posters should be prepared to own their views - is it really too much to expect that all volunteers are seen to own their own actions? Perhaps if they are not so prepared - the abilty to judge and impose editing action upon others should not be given?"

Shambles, let's try again very nicely:

Do volunteers set the rule that they can act anonymously or does Max set the rule?

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:29 PM

If you follow the line of reasoning put forward by some posters in this thread - no one - except the person on overall charge of a nation is responsible for any of their actions. This idea is attractive to some and we have seen the end result of this too many times.

The excuse that folk were only following orders has been tried before and is now finally discredited. This excuse given - (even by those who volunteered and only when finally brought to account) - was that they had no choice to undertake the things they did. Under some circumstances - this excuse may have some weight - but Max is not threatening going to shoot his volunteers.

I think the editing/censorship policy has got too heavy here and we would be better off with the rules being more relaxed.

If indeed these are the hard-and-fast-set-forever forum rules (which I doubt) - they can always be subject to a review if they look like being counter-productive.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 03:20 PM

Of course the volunteers are responsible. TO MAX, not to any individual, and not about policies!

If your complaint boils down to the fact that you feel one or more individual volunteers has been rude to you, take it up with their boss!

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

Of course there is nothing stopping our anonymous volunteers from being doubly anonymous and posting as a guest. It has certainly happened...........

Or perhaps I am the only non-volunteer poster left on the forum?

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

Subject: RE: Deleted post
From: GUEST,unrepentant clone - PM
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

Ad-I deleted it. It was only 15 minutes after it had been posted, and I was not sure anyone else had even seen it. It was posted in the music threads, was obviously copied and pasted, and not only had no commentary to explain why you posted it, it was offensive and inflammatory.

Still, I should have left a note saying what I had done and why. I had a phone call and totally forgot. Apologies for that.

We allow a lot of non-music discussion on lots of things, but it just struck me as an attempt to fan flames. That is only the 2nd post I have deleted in several months. Obviously, this volunteer moderator game is not an exact science.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=69253&messages=19

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:50 PM

"The excuse that folk were only following orders has been tried before and is now finally discredited. This excuse given - (even by those who volunteered and only when finally brought to account) - was that they had no choice to undertake the things they did. Under some circumstances - this excuse may have some weight - but Max is not threatening going to shoot his volunteers."

Bollocks Shambles. Max could stop the volunteers - your waffle can't.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM

Shambles continues to use the term "our website" as if he had ownership. He, nor any of us, have any ownership. Max owns the website. Period. Shambles, if he had any intention of really accomplishing something, would acknowledge that. But of course, he doesn't have any honorable intention. He simply likes to hear the sound of his own voice.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:51 AM

It matters little if I had said this - for it would just be my view - politely expressed. But if I an to be personally attacked (by a known volunteer) for expressing this view - perhaps some evidence of me saying that 'this is our website' can be provided?

This the part of Max's website that he has very kindly given over for all of the public's contributions. This is our forum and Max at least does appear to try his very best to always honour this. There must be serious question if this current forum arrangement (with its procupation with 'what 'we' allow') - as it works in practice - does honour this. Perhaps it could be reviewed and a lighter touch be applied?

And perhaps this adversarial defence - to any possible criticism of all this imposed judgement upon contributors by anonymous volunteers - be change to a more useful one?

Those that really need protection are the posters who find their perfectly acceptable contributions have been deleted - against their knowledge and wishes - along with an entire thread by someone who chooses to judge other posters - but remain unknown.

Volunteers appear to have many choices - I just suggest that choosing to remain anonymous whilst able to delete the invited contributions of others members of the public - is not one that is open to them. Or an honourable one in these circumstances. Nor is setting the example of undertaking personal attacks, inciting others to do this or of making it acceptable to 'make fun' of the invited contributions of others from this responsible position.

No - it is true that our volunteers are not on trial here. But it would seem that the rest of the public are. If personal attacks are to be thought not acceptable - perhaps our volunteers can be seen not to be indulging in them and the public can be set the example of how to post responsibly?

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:08 AM

Rambles, I don't know what the rules are now but when I was one, I was one who preffered to be known as a volunteer. Jeri is another who has made herself known through choice.

It is possible that such choice does not even exist now - like it or not, volunteers don't set the rules, they operate under the rules that ultimately are set by Max. All we know is it appears that both Jeff and Joe prefer it that volunteers are not named.

Whatever, while Max has the rule that volunteers can be anonymous, I will consider you spineless for not taking the issue up with him, but instead trying to bully them into naming themselves.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:14 AM

Rambles ..... I like that Jon. It is a perfect fit.

Rambling Roger ..... I think I could write a song with a name like that. It would have the same inane verse repeated over and over 500 times.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:30 AM

Doubtless with the chorus.

I'm a rambler, I'm a rambler, in shambless' way....

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM

RE: Mudcat, Please organise these threads!         10 Feb 04

GUEST,Jon is right, there are many differing opinions here at the Mudcat. For instance, Jon's opinion is that his site is a "rival" to Mudcat. My opinion is that Jon is flattering himself with such status, and that he's an asshole. Yet despite our difference of opinion, the Mudcat clicks and hums on its merry way.>snip<

Cynically yours,

Max

I am still waiting for the evidence to be provided to demonstrate the accusation made that I claim any form of ownwership or refer to this as 'our website'. I make the very important distinction between Max's website and the public discussion forum that he has kindly provided for all of us on this website - and confine my invited views to this area of operation.

I will also leave others to judge who is attempting to bully who.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

Wow famous at last. Rambles has got a quote in with my name.

My dearest Rambles, it is no secret that these days that my relationship with Max is one I think adequately described as tolerant but mutual contempt for each other.

I have no complaints about the current censorship policy and have no problems with the set up. You remain the one with the problems but fail to take them up at the level needed to do anything about them.

If I wanted to call Max an arsehole, I would and if he wanted to call me an asshole, he would. That would not however resolve what is your complaint.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM

If any one wishes to continue to make personal attacks upon, to call me names or conduct conversations with others about me - can they please do this in the Personal Messages that Max has provided? This would prevent them from keep refreshing a thread on a subject that they obviously do not wish to make any positive contribution to and which their posting will inflict upon everyone else?

Just for the record and if anyone should care - I don't think that Max is an arsehole.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:32 PM

Rambles, you just don't get it do you? I don't have a personal issue with Max on this a) because I like the current setup and b) I don't care enough to have a fallout over policy even if I did. and c) I prefer the situation where I can post peacfully and any feelings are left out of it.

A situation with Max and I was reached but it is not one that needs dirty linen ironing out here or one that needs you taking sides. Max is quite capable of arguing for himself as I am.

If you want a positive in all this: Here you go. I think Max did a good thing in introducing the close button here - I don't want fights anyway, but even if I did, I'm not about to criticise him or ask you to do so on my behalf over something I approve of.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:42 PM

That IS a good one-- asking for PMs instead of posts.

1. Volunteers who choose to be anonymous would be outed.

2. If you don't like the way this thread's going, Shambles, gee-- "just don't open it."

And no I am not a volunteer posting as a guest. I just don't care for you to drag my name into your habit of endless quotes upon quotes.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:13 AM

It must be obvious that whatever Max's purpose or intention in opening this part of his website to the public - if our forum is mostly used in practice by some individuals

The bold, underline was added by me to so you wouldn't miss it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

The whole quote as follows-

It must be obvious that whatever Max's purpose or intention in opening this part of his website to the public - if our forum is mostly used in practice by some individuals to pass judgement on the sanity, motives and general worth of other individuals - based only on the words of their postings - rather than ignoring obvious provocation and this practice is encouraged - there is going to be a lot of public conflict.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

Well Rambles, most of my posts are either musical or tech related as I like tech but yes, sure I do question your sanity on this one.

One you may not have spotted is that Mick and I have different feelings towards Max. Yet we have the same conclusion about you.

My relationship with Mick is such that a CD can be exchanged without worrying about whether one or other of us like or dislike Max. In the grand scale of things, it is nothing. Mick may think there are errors in my jugdgement and has pointed out, even publicaly that he dissagrees with me on some issues but it doesn't get away from me holding some respect for him.

I've had dissagreements with Joe and with Jeri too but there is nothing in anything that has happened here that would cease to make either of them welcome visitors here should fate take them to N Norfolk. That is probably my biggest gripe with you BTW. When you implicate the Clones, you are attacking people I still consider as friends.

Even with Max, in spite of rows, If I was face to face with him, I'd probably buy him a pint, and maybe even try to see if there was a way of a better relationship that there is now. Probably unresolvable but there is nothing in my life that would make me want to attack him for your dislike of a system.

The only person with a problem on these issuses remains you and you are incapable of answering why you don't have a discussion with someone you respect on issues only he can control.

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

Just for a change, let me tell you a German joke, but I have to explain a bit before telling:
(1) In German, 'one' and 'a' are expressed by the same word, 'ein'. (2) I don't know how you call a driver driving on the wrong side of the motorway, we call him a 'ghost driver'. Now the joke:

Urgent traffic warning in the radio: "On the motorway M1 northbound between Exits 37 and 39 there's a/one ghost driver coming ahead. Please do not overtake and drive carefully in the left lane. We'll announce it if the incident is over."
One driver muttering to himself: "One??? Hundreds!"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:44 PM

Thanks for refreshing this thread. The following is probably the same joke. It is about the same age.

There was the driver stopped for going the wrong way down a one-way-street. When this fact was pointed out - he replied - that he was only going one way!

Subject: RE: Tech: Can closed threads be re-opened?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:35 PM

Nice joke wolfgang.

It does remind me though of an incident that had me terrified, I was in a car travelling up the M6 (I think) heading for Leeds, We missed the turn of and our driver decided to reverse to the junction. Travelling backwards toward cars probalby doing 80mph (our limit is 70 but it tends to be excedeed) is scarey.