BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?

Subject: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM

I mean when it comes to politics. I'm just thinking of the elections we've got here in the UK now. I mean there's plenty of scorn and arguing, but there's not much in the way of genuine hate.

Of course the differences between our parties is less than it used to be, resulting in widespread apathy. But the differences between your parties in the States are pretty minor, when it comes to actual issues. Two wings of our Conservative Party at daggers drawn with each other. Plenty to argue about, but why the level of hate?

It occurs to me that maybe there's a feeling that in order to have an argument you have to work up a personal fury against the people you are arguing with - the kind of thing that sometimes crops up in threads on the Mudcat.

Very strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

I for one don't "hate" members of any political party left or right for being members of the party of their choice.

What I DO hate are liars, stupidity and ignorance.

If the shoe fits-

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:33 PM

People hate because they feel threatened. The Religious Right in this country feel that their American Christian way of life is being threatened, and they will no longer be able to do the things the Bible requires of them (go to church, teach their kids evolution, carry guns). The left fears that their political freedoms will be taken away (growing medicinal pot, listening to NPR, voting). Both are partly right and partly wrong. It's not a good mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:35 PM

Where does the Bible say anything about guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:38 PM

Sorry, not teach their kids evolution, teach their kids creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:40 PM

McGrath: Where does the Bible say anything about guns?

That was meant to be humour. Obviously a misfire. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:44 PM

So which were the partly right bits?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:45 PM

Heck, I don't hate anyone... Okay, some really piss me off... But hate??? Nah... But I sho nuff hate alot of the behaviors I see on the republican/right side of the political divide... I think it is mnot only racist but hypocritical...

And I hate folks sayin, "Well, geeze... Both sides are guilty of it..." No, they are not... Just like here with my problems with a cyber-stalkier who is obsessed with me, yeah, I'll try to defend myself but it ain't me who is initatin' the conflict... All, I'm doing is counter punching and that's purdy much waht the Dems have been doing...

Hey, it all comes down to grace and the right, for the most part is clueless about what grace is... Doug R is a rare example of someone on the right who undertstands what grace is all about... Most are totally clueless...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: CET
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM

I dunno, McGrath, I've seen some genuine political hatred from UK Mudcatters on this website, and I don't mean anti-BNP ranting (which I agree with, by the way).

Still, I have to agree that the hatred is mostly directed at Margaret Thatcher, and by extension, anyone who thinks she wasn't entirely evil, and not so much at the current Conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:50 PM

Doug R is a rare example of someone on the right who undertstands what grace is all about

Even if I grant your point, Bobert, (which I don't- I can show you his posts, if need be), he's still got his head up his arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM

McGrath: So which were the partly right bits?

It's true that the Right is losing control, for instance, over the word "marriage." They want it to mean heterosexual marriage, and society is changing in such a way as eventually to make it include homosexual marriage as well. This feels like a direct attack against biblical morality, which they feel obliged to uphold.

The country has lost a lot of rights since Reagan, for instance the 4th amendment right against unreasonable seizure. McCain has sponsored (or co-sponsored, I think) a bill that would take away the right to trial and habeas corpus. These attacks have come from conservative judges/justices, or Republican legislators (or presidents).

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:55 PM

"It occurs to me that maybe there's a feeling that in order to have an argument you have to work up a personal fury against the peop0le you are arguing with - the kind of thing that sometimes crops up in threads on the Mudcat."McGrath

Kevin, I see that Edmund has addressed the thought I would like to point out: In my opinion, UKers are FAR more combative and furiously scornful in their behavior toward each other than the USAers normally are.

Now this does not necessarily involve political parties, but it does include differing views on just about anything else.

It is not just my own observation; Joe O has made the same point in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM

That kind of thing generally strikes me as knockabout pantomime stuff for the most part, especially when it's about music.

Margaret Thatcher was a special case, an exception that proves the rule. I can't think of any other politician in a hundred years and more that inspired the same reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM

I certainly don't hate anyone. I have three friends who are so far right they make Rush Limbaugh look like Gus Hall. I have had some very heated discussions with them but if I hated them I wouldn't give them the time of day. I only argue with those whose opinion I value.
Besides, I have never learned anything from someone who agrees with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM

Greg F.,

Whoa... I didn't say that Dougie didn't have his head up his arse... I just said that compared to others here he has his head up hisn arse with a level of grace... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: ichMael
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

America has the Bill of Rights. The big point of contention is between those who care about it and those who don't. Unfortunately, a large number of Americans would rather not think about freedom.

Arm yourselves

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:36 PM

I think about the freedom that McCain's bill would take away from me. Does the right?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 07:58 PM

Hate comes from fear, and one thing the white right wing fears more than most things is the fact that in a few years the brown people will be in the majority here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:33 PM

Define freedom, itch...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:43 PM

No hate here on this end....however there are those who ACCUSE others of hatred to ennoble their so-called 'cause'. Much of what is happening in the 'news' is rather contrived, then fanned. Take the 'infiltrators' of the Tea Party, for example. They are willing to pretend to be one of them to make an incident, which is false, and blame it on the Tea Partiers. I'm not a Tea Party person, but they, like the students at Berkeley in the 60's have the right to assemble, to free speech, and protest. It's ironic how that is changed, and stifled, by the very people(illusion) who did the same thing!!
This is contrived, as our nation is being 'changed' from one form of government to another!

Peace...LOVE!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM

Yes the Teabaggers have so much love.

Infiltration seems pointless. But that doesn't make the Teabaggers right, no more than the student protests that blocked access or damaged buildings in the 1960s were right. And if "kill him!" isn't hate, you need your dictionary calibrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:07 PM

"But that doesn't make the Teabaggers right,"

Right or not, they should be allowed their voice. It's the others that are out of line. Disagreeing is no reason to employ fraudulent means, and smear tactics....or hate speech!

Not disagreeing with you Mouser...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM

Agree, they should be allowed their voice, however much I disagree with it. That's American democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:13 PM

The "right wants marriage to mean heterosexual marriage." So does the Catholic hierarchy. So do many in the Islamic hierarchies. And so do many rank and file members. Are they all 'righties?

I also find it amusing that someone who hasn't posted to this thread is an object of derision- and by extension- hatred?- by lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:14 PM

Hatred is much safer in the UK where we do not have gun nuts. But I have come to the view that hatred of the lunatic right is part of human evolution. They are dangerous and threatening.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:20 PM

Q: The "right wants marriage to mean heterosexual marriage." So does the Catholic hierarchy. So do many in the Islamic hierarchies. And so do many rank and file members. Are they all 'righties?

I was talking about politics. That some religious group has the same beliefs or goals as the religious right in this country seems to me completely irrelevant. I was talking about one specific group. They are collectively called the "Religious Right" and have been for 30 years. I noted one of their goals/desires. I don't see what the Catholic Church has to do with it, or whether the word "right" should apply to them or not. I'm not saying the group is right because they believe such-and-such about marriage. I'm saying the group is right AND they believe such-and-such about marriage. Clear now?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:34 PM

Greg F, I've had own my squabbles with Doug R, but it's particularly graceless to be slagging off a 'catter who isn't even in the thread.

I can't say I've seen much evidence for McG's generalisation. Au contraire I am struck by the predisposition of many Americans to respect their political opponents almost regardless of how strongly they may disagree with them. For my part I see no point respecting people who peddle (say) immoral values when they are well enough educated to know better. But I suppose I do take this intolerance to a greater extreme than most fellow Brits.

I shudder to think what kind of an impression is created in other countries by the weekly horror show of Prime Minister's questions. It is far from typical of the work that goes on at Westminster, but it puts on display a level of puerile rancour that I've seldom seen in US politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:45 PM

Just following Doug's example, Pete- check him out some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:57 PM

"That kind of thing generally strikes me as knockabout pantomime stuff for the most part, especially when it's about music." McGrath in response to the perception that UKers are more virulent in their disagreements.

Kevin, perhaps "knockabout pantomime stuff" is a matter of differences in culture. To me it comes across as graceless bludgeoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:59 PM

Mousethief-
"The Christian right (also known as the religious right and the evangelical bloc) is a term used predominantly in the USA to describe a spectrum of right-wing Christian political and social movements and organizations characterized by their strong support of conservative social and political values. The politically active social movement of the Christian right include individuals from a wide variety of conservative theological beliefs, ranging from traditional movements within Baptist, Mormon, and Calvinist organizations to theologically conservative groups within Lutheranism, Calvinism and Catholicism."
............
Religious right "can refer to any religiously motivated conservative movement,..... For example conservative Christians, Muslim social conservatives and Orthodox Jews cooperate in national and international projects through the World Congress of Families and United Nations NGO gatherings."

Above extracted from Wikipedia. Religion seems to be a large part of "religious right."

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Arkie
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:01 PM

I am certainly disturbed by the level of hatred expressed primarily by some of the so called radical right in the US. People were accused of being Bush haters during his administration, but it was usually addressed to people who criticized Bush policies. We now see hatred at a different level and while it is usually the result of fear, that fear is being exploited and inflamed by such as Beck and Limbaugh and even some Republican leaders and some religious leaders. I do not know if other countries have their counterparts of these dangerous extremists. They encourage their audience to act without thinking and base arguments upon misinformation if not outright lies. When bloggers are thrown into the mix and mass emailings there is an even greater force generating hatred. Then add the power of persuasion convincing people that only Fox News or certain people can be trusted to provide the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:11 PM

I echo Arkie's sentiments. I am occasionally subjected to Glen Beck's odious television program. The man is a liar, a dangerous extremist who has snagged an audience and is exploiting their fears. There is a very ugly sentiment brewing on the far right, and I don't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM

Q: Religion seems to be a large part of "religious right."

Clearly. This doesn't make your question relevant, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: ichMael
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 10:30 PM

Limbaugh and Beck are paid to do a job. They are gatekeepers. They herd their listeners into thinking one way, and NPR herds you folks into thinking another way. Divide and conquer. This is done in America by the big foundations. You see their names all over PBS programming. They paid for Clinton and Obama's educations. Institutalized divisiveness. Don't fall for it.

I do wish we had a system where the president was grilled once a week by congress, like the Prime Minister's questioning. Bush would have lasted a month, Obama a couple.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM

The problem with your thesis, ichMael, is that even your strawmen won't stand. NPR for example explores a variety of different perspectives and kinds of existence, and compares them to each other. Beck and Limbaugh denounce, decry, condemn and hector against any kind of life not within their narrow band of approved sentiments. Tehre's a world of difference and they are not at all, despite your fervent assertion, comparable in style or effect.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:20 PM

For one thing we had a huge civil war in which half of America lost, and was treated very badly in the aftermath. That will take a long time to heal.

We are multicultural and that brings various alliances etc.

We have a heritage of packing up and moving..maybe that plays a part.

But although there is a great deal of disrespect, I am not sure about hate. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:49 PM

What big foundations paid for Obama's and Clinton's educations? (Post up above sommewhere).Probably none.

Obama's education was paid for scholarships and his grandmother (a vice-president of Bank of Hawai'i), and by his mother's second husband, Mr. Sotero (forget his first name); employed by Shell and the Indonesian Oil company, Petronas, member of several golf clubs).

Dunno about Clinton. Too lazy to look it up, but I doubt that the foundations that contribute to PBS entered into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:17 AM

Amos: NPR for example explores a variety of different perspectives and kinds of existence, and compares them to each other.

Isn't that liberals all over? That just screams "left wing".

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:55 AM

Getting back to the Tea Party, for a moment...they are accused of being homophobes, racists, morons...etc etc......if that is true, why is the left, posing as them, to do mischief, to discredit them??...Perhaps the accusations from the left are also false!......("perhaps", rolls eyes!)
Methinks they are just ordinary folks, tired of the government's act!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:04 AM

Fugitive from sanity, your paranoia is showing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:46 AM

An argument that seems like graceless bludgeoning, Ebbie, is just one in which the observer has no strong personal interest.

Shall we open up another 'USA Religion' thread? I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Royston
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:49 AM

And to answer the OP, I don't see Americans hating each other. I see the strength of opinion between two sides of a political divide. All very important, very healthy. When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like this so called Tea Party, you need a pretty robust backlash, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:21 AM

Those who have commented on the religious right I think answer Harlow's question (anyone remember the "I HATE Obama!!!" preacher passionately praying before a congregation that God would smash Obama's face in or "break his face" or something? Utterly unthinkable in the UK). While there might be *some degree* of cross-over between Conservative voters and CofE types, on the whole people in the UK prefer to keep politics and religion distinct, and the extremism and rage evident in the so-called Christan Right simply isn't there. But then neither is the Christian extremism, which is perhaps where the "political hatred" arises from in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM

sister has lived in Chicago for the past 50+ years; & I have dear and cSurely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery.

I observed something of the same sort on another such thread as this once before: and stood back waiting for the flak which was sure to follow and zoom around my innocent head; but to my surprise I got enthusiastic support in those observations from over here, together with several shrugs of pained recognition from Over There. Wonder how it will go all down this time.

I love you, America. I have always felt most happy and been made to feel very much at home on my frequent visits to East, West & Middle America. My beloved late wife's beloved sister has lived in Chicago for 50 years, and I have close friends in NY, LA, SF, and cousins with whom I am close regular correspondent terms in DC/Va. But I still feel that the truth of my observations above cannot be gainsaid.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:03 AM

Sorry ~~ above post got confused ~ please disregard. I try again.
~~~

Surely it is all a factor of the phenomenon that the United States (within which concept I include the pre-1776 colonies) have always been noted for a lack of any moderacy, leading to that basic mismatch between aspiration and achievement which meant that the The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was predicated and founded on an unshakeable base of genocide and slavery.

I observed something of the same sort on another such thread as this once before: and stood back waiting for the flak which was sure to follow and zoom around my innocent head; but to my surprise I got enthusiastic support in those observations from over here, together with several shrugs of pained recognition from Over There. Wonder how it will go all down this time.

I love you, America. I have always felt most happy and been made to feel very much at home on my frequent visits to East, West & Middle America. My beloved late wife's beloved sister has lived in Chicago for 50 years, and I have close friends in NY, LA, SF, and cousins with whom I am close regular correspondent terms in DC/Va. But I still feel that the truth of my observations above cannot be gainsaid.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:17 AM

For one thing we had a huge civil war in which half of America lost...

Britain seems to have gotten over their equally "huge" Civil War just fine. The Neo-Confederate Bullshit Machine is what keeps ours going.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:21 AM

Unlike Hutu tutsi, Sunni Shitte, Catholic Protestant, tribal religious divides elsewhere the American culture war is funded by large corporations in order that elections of the wealthy class candidates have a base of religiously motivated people help elect people who will do the bidding of the wealthy ruling class.

With the Republican party now weakened by the Bush fiasco a new party established by FOX news is now pandering for a base of single issue people to dupe.

Who eats who?
http://usera.ImageCave.com/donuel/snake.jpg



+

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like the far left, you need a pretty robust backlash. And the TeaParty is providing that, IMHO.


BOTH sides have the right to present their points of view. NPR is center to left, Fox is center to right. BOTH have extremists with opinion programs.

Amos,

"Beck and Limbaugh denounce, decry, condemn and hector against any kind of life not within their narrow band of approved sentiments."

Beck has strong opinions- and expresses them almost as loudly as you have. You have a problem with that? At least he backs his opinion up with SOME facts...

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one other so much?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM

When you get forces of social and spiritual corrosion, like the far left.....

FAR LEFT? You wouldn't know the "far left", Bruce, if it reared up on its hind legs and bit you on the ass.

The fact that there is virtually no such bloc or party or constituency in the United States simply points out the delusional world you apparently inhabit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why do Americans hate one another so much?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM

Bruce:

You are being obdurate and inordinately unperceptive. The very idea that there would be a parallel between my calm, compassionate, reasoned, analytical statements and Glen Beck's high-dollar buffoonery is risible and cross-eyed. Go to.


A