BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 07:58 PM

It's common human nature to wish to do what they wish... and laws have to be there to try to make the game vaguely fair.

Which goes right back to what I said at the beginning: people want to be allowed to do what they want to do, and there is a desire in other people to force them to do what they want them to do. So what are we arguing about?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Personally, I am considerably saddened that the use of hyperbole in public discourse is treated as a statement of fact by so many.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:06 PM

I surrender.... sort of... Your answer was very fast, and I doubt you digested my distinctions.

We are arguing (partially)about de facto vs. de jure. YOU asserted that liberals/leftists are the one trying to force others to do things their way. I disagree that this is accurate, and have worn my poor index fingers to the metaphorical bone try to explain why.

I can't do much more.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

Yeah, Tac... I did check out yer posting history... I think you've equaled yer first four year total since the first of the year...

Ain't no McCartheyism here... We've had folks come in here (below the line) with similar POVs with what looks like entire staffs to do battel with the folk singers... I mean, there were times when I felt like I was debating a hundred people... Just similarities...

Ain't no big thing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:49 PM

Bill D wrote:
YOU asserted that liberals/leftists are the one trying to force others to do things their way. I disagree that this is accurate.

Oh, that... I admit you're right in the broader sense, as the labels are popularly used today: in many areas conservatives do try to force others to do things their way. I thought I explained above that I was talking about government control of the economy, and economic matters. Popularly, present-day American conservatives are called "right" while social liberals are called "left," but historically, when speaking of economic theory and government control, left refers to government economic control while right refers to individual economic liberty, because (I think) that's what they were talking about when they first started using left/right labels–19th century, wasn't it?

If there's so much confusion about the labels today then perhaps they've outlived their usefulness.

Do you consider yourself a leftist? A progressive?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:43 PM

"I thought I explained above that I was talking about government control of the economy, and economic matters."

hmm? I'd have to go back and see. I can't think how a fellow of my careful *grin* nature would have missed that.


I am basically a Democrat...who 'has' voted for a few Republicans. My personal opinions are all over the map. There are areas (immigration, for example) where a simple yes-no 'might' sound like I'm a conservative Republican, but never for the same reasons that a conservative would hold the position.
   I voted for JFK, was very active in the civil rights area..(two trips to Mississippi for voting rights).. actually ran for state senate in Kansas in 1968 (to defeat an avowed bigot).. I am mostly a practical realist who moved from the Methodist church to Unitarianism to .... rabid skeptic. Progressive? uhhh..not exactly. Leftist? nawww...but I can see it from here. A Democrat because they don't HAVE parties to fit all the possibilites, and Democrats usually do more of the things I approve of...and lately the Republicans are doing a lot I DISapprove of.

I worked briefly for EPA and moved from Kansas to the Wash DC area in 77... and I have strong opinions in environmental issues.

You care to give a similar brief history? (What general area do you inhabit?)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:46 PM

Oh...and I consider the recent Supreme Court decision on "Citizens United" making corporations 'individuals' to be the worst travesty since Dred Scott... that should help peg me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:07 PM

FYI (from a basic text on political science):

The terms Right and Left refer to political affiliations which originated early in the French Revolutionary era of 1789-1796, and referred originally to the seating arrangements in the various legislative bodies of France. The aristocracy sat on the right of the Speaker (traditionally the seat of honor) and the commoners sat on the Left, hence the terms Right-wing politics and Left-wing politics.

Originally, the defining point on the ideological spectrum was the ancien régime ("old order"). "The Right" thus implied support for aristocratic or royal interests, and the church, while "The Left" implied support for republicanism, secularism and civil liberties. Because the political franchise at the start of the revolution was relatively narrow, the original "Left" represented mainly the interests of the bourgeoisie, the rising capitalist class. At that time, support for laissez-faire capitalism and Free markets were counted as being on the left; today in most Western countries these views would be characterized as being on the Right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 10:13 PM

But how do ya' feel about Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey" as it relates to capital punishment, Bill???

But never mind that stuff...

This thread is about one's 1st amendment rights to incite people to kill...

Bubba says, "If they didn't want to be killed then they shouldn't have been commie Democrats" and the "commie Democrats" say...

..."This shit has gone far enough... Time to reel the hate speech back in... Ain't about 1st amendment here... It's about everyone's right to the "pursuit of happiness" which ain't all that easy to accomplish when there are people trying to kill yer ass...

Count me with the liberal side of the debate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM

To Don Firth:

Cool beans. Thanks for the info!!!

To Bill D:

That's very interesting. I'm impressed that you ran for office. Sounds like you didn't win against the "avowed bigot" – too bad. (Really? He really declared that he was a bigot?)

Politically, I'm a classical liberal – which is almost nothing like what passes for a "liberal" today. Originally, classical liberalism had as one of its main goals the abolition of privilege, which was standard in governments of the time, and meant special rights or immunities granted to particular classes of individuals, e.g., royalty, aristocracy, clergy, etc. A classical liberal believes in individual rights, limited government, complete equality under the law regardless of race, class, etc., and equality of opportunity (not equality of outcome). Classical liberalism espouses the cause of free men and free markets.

So from what Don Firth says above, I guess that makes me an 18th-century leftist. ;-)

I was a Bobby Kennedy Democrat in the 1960s (I met him and shook his hand when he was running for US Senator from New York), and I was a Reagan Republican in the 1980s, without changing my politics between the two eras – it was the parties that changed.

I've never run for public office, nor do I think I could have won (I'm not a good enough public speaker, and I've the charisma of a baked potato). I have a masters degree in physics, a doctorate in law (I studied constitutional law). I put myself through college driving a taxi cab, and after college I had careers in software and aerospace engineering and as a patent attorney.

I think the recent Supreme Court decision on "Citizens United" was correctly decided, and is probably the most misunderstood and most deceptively demagogued and mischaracterized Supreme Court decision in recent history.

I sing and play guitar, mostly traditional Scottish/Irish, but also American folk music. I'm up in the area of the Taconic Mountains, which explains my handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:56 AM

No one is being called any names. Not by me anyway. I am attacking an idea as stupid, not a person. Though enough people seem to cherish this idea for one to see patterns.

Levying taxes under a democratic system is not slavery.
People who own property and/or make money under such a system need to realize just how much the system benefits them and how they are NOT separate from it.

To say otherwise is foolishness.

Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand followers and most Republicans need to be described as unpatriotic, short sighted and selfish when they are behaving and talking that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:49 AM

Taconicus- The bigot did not win. I was running in support of a Black friend, to split the 'white' vote. I had to appear on League of Women Voter TV shows twice. At the last minute a veteran black politician entered the primary and he beat the bigot by 400 votes. I got 700 votes, most of which we all assumed were taken from the bigot.... at least the winner thought so.
(I worked as a grocery checker to get thru college, and about the time I was half-way thru my Masters in Philosophy, money ran out and most philosophy majors were not finding jobs)

That 'classical liberal' moniker in new to me. I can't wrap my head around being for Bobby Kennedy and then for Reagan. I know the parties change..(Lincoln would have been a liberal today)... but what you list 'seem' to veer toward Libertarianism.
   The part that gives me the most pause is what is buried in the phrase 'limited government'. Since (as you may have noticed) I like deconstructing language to examine what the full implications of various formulations are, I often find quite inconsistent premises in folks full attitude toward 'limited government'. That is all-too-often just used as a "slogan" to mean "I don't want to be regulated and/or told what to do", no matter what the consequences.

Constitutional law, huh? Any comment on the "Citizens United" decision? Or on the precise interpretation of the 2nd amendment? (I have typed dozens of posts about those here.)


As I said, I play autoharp...and a little dulcimer and recorder. My wife is the real musician. She plays guitar and a zither and a McArthur Harp and sings almost anything.

Subject: Classical liberalism and libertarianism
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:00 AM

I reject deconstructionism as a fatally flawed and self-contradictory doctrine. If the meaning of the words we use is ultimately unknowable then conversation is meaningless and we might as well live in a might-makes-right world.

When I say limited government I'm not using it as a slogan for "I don't want to be regulated" as you suggest. I mean exactly what the phrase means to anyone familiar with political theory. Our Constitution gives us a government of limited, enumerated powers. If we can't agree on what those words mean, then we have no basis for conversation.

Assuming we can, and therefore do…

Yes, classical liberalism is very close to libertarianism. But libertarianism is a blanket term that includes the political philosophies of people who believe different things. Like you, most people today are not familiar with classical liberalism, and thus many people who call themselves libertarians (I used to call myself a "rational libertarian") are actually classical liberals. Other "libertarians" are not. A fair number could be called anarco-capitalistic libertarians, who are opposed to all government and believe everyone would be better off with a utopian, totally unregulated, absolutely free society, where private property rights are the basis on which to settle all human differences. That's a nice ideal for a perfect world, but unrealistic. However, it is fairly clear that libertarianism derived from classical liberalism, and there are many similarities. In fact, you will probably find few differences between "moderate libertarians" and those who recognize themselves to be classical liberals. The problem is, of course, that the word "liberal" has been co-opted by radical leftists, socialists, and progressives who have gradually taken over political parties that formerly were of a more classical liberal nature, so that now the word means something else entirely, and classical liberals don't recognize themselves (nor do others recognize them) as liberals at all.

Sure, we could talk about Citizens United or the Second Amendment if you like (you don't think Citizens United was a Second Amendment case, do you?) If you are open-minded then after I explained more about the Citizens United I think you would come away with a different opinion. However, it would be a few days before I had the time to do that. I should've worked over the weekend, but instead I frittered away a lot of it rambling on inconsequentially on this forum, probably mostly to avoid work I had to do.

If we do talk about one or the other, we should probably start a new thread about it.

I like listenting dulcimer music. Do you play hammer dulcimer?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:17 AM

Yes to new thread or even PMs... no, lap dulcimer.

No.. I don't mean Citizens United was a Second Amendment case... those are just 2 areas that bother me.

Later, then... get your work done. I have a festival to attend this Sat, it it doesn't snow. Need to organize--I'm helping lead a workshop on parodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 11:35 AM

One of the things today is the media always tries to pigeon hole people into categories when in fact it is impossible I think to do that. The term left or right or conservative or liberal. Most people are part of everything, it is all based on the issue at hand. We can all agree that the government has wasted a ton of money (conservative and liberal alike) we all can agree that the Iraq war had questionable motives for our initial involvement etc ... that list goes on and on. Each person may have a different view on how to fix it, and that is the area were logical and respectful debate should take place. As Kendall says over and over again, "I ain't learned nothing from people who always agree with me" .. however today it is a shouting match and it carries over to our elected official who should be setting the example. Difficult times call for smart minds and clear thinkers from all walks of life to help determine the cause and the cure. That is why shows that peddle division are not American I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:09 PM

"Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand followers and most Republicans need to be described as unpatriotic, short sighted and selfish when they are behaving and talking that way."

Socialists, Nancy Pelosi followers, and most Democrats need to be described as unpatriotic, short-sighted, and envious, when they are behaving and talking the way they do.

Gee this is fun...characterize the other side--don't discuss ideas.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"...shows that peddle division are not American I think."

Peddling division is as old as America, at least certainly as the two party system. Very American, I think. Only it's easier to disseminate our differences in the age of instant communication. The trick is to compromise effectively for the benefit of all, and that requires at least two willing parties. I think we seldom have any willing parties these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 12:21 PM

Here is what Steve Cohen, a Democrat in Congress, said about his enemies, the Republicans:

"'They say it's a government takeover of health care, a big lie just like Goebbels,' Cohen said. 'You say it enough, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, and eventually, people believe it.  Like blood libel.  That's the same kind of thing.'

'The Germans said enough about the Jews and people believed it--believed it and you have the Holocaust.  We heard on this floor, government takeover of health care.  Politifact said the biggest lie of 2010 was a government takeover of health care because there is no government takeover,' Cohen said."

This must be OK because all these Rabbis are talking about is Glenn Beck, not Steve Cohen.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 01:48 PM

Of course it's okay when the Democrats do it, pdq. Don't you know? Their shit don't stink!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM

Except for the fact that Cohen didn't call anyone a Nazi, nor did he even USE the term Nazi.

Guess facts don't signift to Taco & Peedee & their ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 02:21 PM

John
you are right that is the problem, it is a hell of a lot easier to throw rocks and blame then to try and fix difficult problems via discussion and action. Heck if we can just blame the "other" guy then no need to try and address problems and work like hell to solve them. Much easier to call the other guy a fascist or communist or something like that. You are so right

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:02 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure and that is the Repubs certainly know how to win/steal elections... Fir me the "Citizens United" decision and the Bush v. Gore decison are a toss up as to which is the worst piece of corrupt judicial activism... These guys make Earl Warren look like a Boy Scout...Both were way over the top and to outsiders looking in are seen as Banana Republic level corruption...

BTW, what ever happened to one-man-one-vote... When we allow corporations to have unlimited access to buying elections we are, in essence, giving more votes to Boss Hog... Lots more votes... That is reality since 90% of elections are won by the candidates who spends the most money... This has nothing to do with speech... Speech has a voice box... Corporation's don't... They are legal entities and do not have voice boxes or hearts or kidneys or....

BTW, I worked for Bobby Kennedy and had he not been gunned down he would not have been a Reagan supporter... Quite the opposite... He also would not be a Charles Krauthammer follower... Quite the opposite...

Finally, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's most likely a duck... "Classical liberalism", as Tac has defined it, has nuthin' to do with the progressive movement... Quite the opposite...

Lastly, as for the 2nd amendment, I have lived among gun owners all my life, am a former member of the NRA and a current gun owner... With that said, I have never heard one single 2nd amendment rights person quote the 2nd amendment... Hey, it one friggin' sentence... Shouldn't be all that hard to learn... One sentence!!! BTW, when did a single person qualify as a "militia"??? Well, if we are going to talk about the 2nd amendment then lets take it the way it was written... I mean, we have all these Tea Partiers who want US to follow the Constitution, right... And they don't have a clue what's in it???

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM

The 2nd amendment DOES refer to A well regulated Militia...and although I think the age of militias is past, I doubt that what the current bunch has in mind will come close to "well regulated" .....that assumes, I would think, regulated BY the government to assist the regular army. I do **NOT** think the founders were planning on defining a way to oppose the Republic, no matter how the paranoids want to interpret it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

Midge buzzings.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:30 PM

"[H]ad he [RFK] not been gunned down he would not have been a Reagan supporter... Quite the opposite... He also would not be a Charles Krauthammer follower..."

As you are so able to know what Kennedy's future epiphanies might have been, please send me the winners for Tuesday at Santa Anita.

"BTW, when did a single person qualify as a "militia"???" One soldier qualifies as a troop, so perhaps by analogy the same for militia.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 08:58 PM

Your definition of a "well regulated militia" is a stretch, John... Me thinks you need to, ahhhh. pee in this this plastic cup... *grin*

But I think I do understand Bobby Kennedy... I not only worked in his campaign but I also came close to workin' for his family as a teacher/groundskeeper/handy man but kept my other job... He most certainly would not have supported a government that was about less governance and that was what Reagan was all about... No, Bobby Kennedy, was a federalist and he strongly believed that the government should take an activist role in solving problems from poverty to urban to law enforcement to urban renewal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:24 PM

Bobert--At my age I have enough problem hitting the commode, let alone trying to fill a plastic cup. :>)

I did not define militia, I only suggested a possible answer to the question...altho' I know it (the question) was really meant to be rhetorical.

I well know what RFK believed in in the 60s. I also know what others, David Horowitz and Michael Medved come to mind, believed in those days. Life view changes are not unheard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 09:56 PM

Tell ya' what, John... If Bobby Kennedy had changed that much then I believe that one might make an argument that Hitler was thinkin' of convertin' to Judaism...

Guess again...

BTW, sittin' down on the commode improves yer accuracy... Yeah, I know all the sissy stuff but seein' as I clean my own bathroom, I sit... Saves alot of cleaning'...

BTW, part B... I will deny I ever admitted to sittin' down...

B;~)

Subject: Second Amendment
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Jan 11 - 10:11 PM

It's kind of silly to talk about the Second Amendment in a thread about Glenn Beck and rabbis, isn't it? So I'll put my response in a new thread.