BS: Bush's press conference last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

I realize that, Karen C., your reply to Kendall just struck me as funny. He's probably all rested up from his trip now, and as you can see, the trip evidently made him feel pretty fiesty. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

"Would we have turned over the head of the C.I.A. to Chile after the murder of President Allende?"

You mean after Pinochet retired and they got back to having a democratic system again? I suppose the amnesty he brought in for his murderers would probably have been intended to cover the head of the CIA as well.

But it might be a nice gesture for the USA to make the offer now, as a way of demonstrating total opposition to terrorism. And the same in respect of Nicaragua and the people who funded and helped the contras.

An offer like that would really help demonstrate what hypocrites other people are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

Or maybe the U.S. could stop funding the right-wing death squads in Colombia, if only for a couple of weeks, Kevin? How about that as a show of sincerity?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:25 AM

Or close down the School of the Assasins.

For those of you who are "American innocents" and don't know what the School of the Americas is--it is a training camp for government sponsored terrorism in Latin America and the Caribbean, wholly funded with YOUR tax dollars.

Founded in 1946, the US Army School of the Americas has trained thousands of Latin American and Caribbean soldiers. Among them are the former dictators of Argentina, Bolivia, Honduras, and Panama. Other notable graduates include the Salvadoran officers responsible for the assasination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador, as well as many other citizens murdered by the death squads during the civil war in that country. Recent graduates can still be found in many other America-friendly countries like Columbia, as Greg mentions above.

This has been a public service announcement. You may now return to your folk-inspired jingo drumming.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM

I am unfamiliar with the School of America, would you please site credible sources for it. Since it is comming from a GUEST with no identification and no sources referenced I have a hard time taking your words as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

A universally held belief... SURE HE'S A SCOUNDREL, BUT, HE'S OUR SCOUNDREL.

btw We are not ALL jingoists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:44 AM

Nobody, well here it is from somebody with a name. I just did a "Google" search for "School of the Americas" and it returned 17,900 hits.Any other decent search engine should do about the same. Give it a shot.

Guest is forgetting that its perfectly all right for the U.S. Government to sponsor international terrorism, run terrorist training camps, & all that- just not for anyone else to do so- with the possible exception if Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM

Just a Nobody,

I'm sure I don't know what you would define as "credible" but here is an article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/overseas/overseas1a.htm

The site with the best information is the excellent School of the Americas Watch website:

http://www.soaw.org/

BTW, Martin Sheen, the actor who portrays President Bartlett on the TV show "The West Wing" attends the November vigil almost every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM

I thought a few weeks ago there was mention of closing down the School of the Americas...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:11 AM

I think Rumsfeld or possibly Dumbya was suggesting targeting it for air strikes, Kim, but then figured Iraq would be more "fun"-   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:53 AM

No KimC, they just changed the name at the around the same time that George Shrub was being inaugurated. Go to the SOAW site, and read all about it. They are going strong as ever down there in Fort Benning. I'm sure these days they can't keep up with the commando demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM

I note from the list of graduates on the School of the Americas Watch website that there don't seem to be any Canadians there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:31 PM

Before this is all over, I think we may need lots of graduates from the School of the Americas. I hope they are well trained and that they know how to deal with terrorists.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

They ought to, DougR. They are terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:16 PM

Yep, and it may require terrorists, perhaps, to defeat terrorists, CarolC.!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

That may be true, DougR, but if we want to use terrorism to promote our interests, as we have been for years, we'd probably better stop saying that we are going to eliminate all terrorists and terrorism and the countries and governments that sponsor it.

Maybe we in this country might not see the inconsistancy there, but I'm sure the rest of the world will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:43 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and eliminating third world debt could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals, rather than continue to mindlessly support the despots and dictators who have been exploiting us and the rest of the world out of their greed and lust for power, and the repressive exploitation of the world's resources for "just us."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:45 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and servicing third world debt, could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:07 PM

Guest, will you wake up?

Carol: I am not suggesting using terrorist tactics to "promote our interests." Duh! I am suggesting it to save our lives!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM

Well, DougR, the terrorists that we have been training and sponsoring through the School of the Americas have been in the business of promoting our 'interests' (read economic interests here) for a long time, and at the expense of a lot of innocent people's lives for a long time. Should we be held accountable for that as we would hold others accountable for their terrorist activities?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:20 PM

As I understand it Bin Laden was a graduate of the Middle East version of the School of the Americas. Not such a good idea.

The word terrorism gets thrown around very loosely. Often its used just to refer to all the activities of insurgent or paramilitary organisations - these are termed terrorists, and therefore anything they do is a type of terrorism.

I think it is better to use it to describe certain types of activity, including brutality intended to coerce and terrorise people into submitting, and the killing of random civilians as a means of achieving this. And described in that way it is fairly obvious that it is part of the repertoire of governments every bit as much. In fact, when it comes to body counts, much more.

And terrorism as so defined is never acceptable, and is in the long run self defeating. Using such methods against Al Qaida will guarantee that atrocities such as September 11th will sooner or later be repeated, because they will have the effect of ensuring a harvest of people willing to carry them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

You know, Carol, I really don't know enough about the School of the Americas to comment on that. All I know is what I have read in this post. I have not gone to the links provided, because my concern at the moment is the war being waged against the terrorists that attacked our country on September 11th. I favor promoting unity during this time of need, not disparity, and that is what I consider posts to be that concentrate on criticizing our government for past sins. Particularly when I don't know more about the subject. Off the cuff, if so many of the liberals posting are so opposed to the School of the Americas, I suspect I might well support the work done there.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

I guess I'm having a difficult time seeing how we're going to accomplish what we say we want to do if we don't abide by the same standards of behavior and the same rules that we apply to others.

In fact, I predict that it is not possible. So I consider it my patriotic duty to put the spotlight on those activities of our government that contribute to the problems that we now face.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM

That's my boy, Doug! I knew you wouldn't let us down. Don't just be ignorant & refuse to inform yourself, FLAUNT your ignorance, be PROUD of it, REVELL in it, BRAG about it! You've never let facts stand in the way of your self-satisfied opinions before, so why start now? I don't think you're trying to be humorous above, I think you really do mean what you say. That's what is so pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

Ah, Greg F., I wondered when your were going to uncoil. I'm not your boy, by the way, I'm probably old enough to be your father. I'm sure we both are glad that I'm not.

Carol: So it's your patriotic duty to point out what you view as transgressions by the U. S.? Okay. If that's what winds you up, have a ball!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:28 AM

Recognising our own faults and mistakes does not weaken us either as individuals or as nations. Concealing them and ignoring them does.

"Tell me what I am doing wrong?" is an essential element in learning how to do anything better. Sometimes when people are making a lot of mistakes and lack confidence it can be best to ignore some of the mistakes, and concentrate on what they are doing right. But doing it that way is a measure of weakness in the person concerned.

Is America really supposed to be seen as a faltering student to be shielded from criticism? (And that applies to other countries too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM

Not unless you're something over 90, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM

Doug is a hundred and nineteen, Greg. He's living proof that conservatism aids longevity! (joke, okay?) :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:15 PM

Right, L.H., I'm conserved!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

Conserved sounds all sweet and jammy. I've detected a touch of vinegar at times. Pickled is maybe a better epithet...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

Who would ever have thought that G.W.'s press conference would still be getting attention 9 days later?

Man! Talk about charisma!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

You're right, McGrath! Sometimes I'm pickled too!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM

Who the hell is talking about the Dubya Shrub? The thread is continuing, not the conversation about the unimpressed conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Finding your own faults and weaknesses is the only way to improve yourself.

One of the biggest problems today is most Americans do not care about foriegn policy, and how the world sees us. They feel they have their own problems trying to live the american dream. They prefer to be blind and ignorant of anything outside of their little bubble, and would like to let the gov't make all the decisions. The gov't is supposed to listen to what the people want. When people don't care, and don't know what's really going on the gov't is free to do as it wishes. Politicians on both sides of the fence are paid by lobbiests to make decisions in their favor.

Don't be hearded like a sheep. Fight the urge to be ignorant. Don't just rely on what you see in the news and CNN and 700club. See through propaganda. Question the news' sources, and who owns/backs the media you're listening to. Try to get the whole picture before you make a decision, and be open to changing your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Be#. Recent reading has caused me to understand the extent of the destruction of Egypt's economy. This is not the Egypt of even twenty years ago, which would have been about the last time I looked. According to last Sunday's NY Times, lawyers and engineers and a quite broad base of educated people are working for $30.00 to $100.00 per month and working additional menial jobs to meet basic needs. Somewhere close to half of the population is under twenty five. Just one small piece of a much more complicated puzzle, I realize.

According to the same source, working poor of Pakistan send tens of thousands of their kids for strict Koranic learning, in facilities where they are indoctrinated with ideas that Jews knocked down the WTC to make Muslims get a bad rap, and that the Hindus are no worse than the Jews. (The article was pretty good and identifying people who were willing to acknowledge such beliefs and teachings.)

A constant source of amazement to me is realizing that but for the luck of birth geography, I would have been one of those ignorant hate filled ragamuffins. A blond one, admittedly, but otherwise exactly the same as the kids in the photographs.

I am also amazed at the ability of the U.S. federal government in running such an efficient military machine (disregarding the "cost" factor in efficiency; I guess effective was the word I was looking for, though people would criticize the hell out of that one as well), when in all other matters, domestic and foreign, one can expect to see sloth and inefficiency as the norm.

What a terrible mess. I want bin Laden and a thousand or ten of his closest associates "taken out" of the game, but, oh what a mess. (There are many who believe the Afghhani citizenry would not tolerate a multinational peacekeeping force, even if wholly comprised of Muslims.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

"the Hindus are no worse than the Jews" - they aren't are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:58 PM

Oh, thanks, sorry. It was: "And the Hindus are just as bad." My head is imploding, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

It's funny how every religion get's generalized when these topics are discussed (not that I doubt that's what gets taught in those radical islamic learning centers).

Every religion has a "fundamentalist" (extremist) group. Islam has the Taliban. Judaism has Zionists Christianity has Phalangists.

These are just one example of each, although I only know of that one for the Jewish faith. I don't know enough about Hinduism to say other than they're supposed to be pacifists. That is sad on my part. My neighbor is Hindu.

In any case extremeist groups, as shown through history, are generally the ones to do terrible acts against humanity in the name of their god. This in turn causes other factions to hate the religion as a whole. Being raised in a christian home I detest what the Phalangists have done in the name of God (Sabra and Shatila massacres), and would passionately dispute anyone accusing them of representing christianity as a whole. Don't mistake the views and actions of a radical few for the beliefs of the whole. Especially in the case of these 3 such large groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

Ummmm...first GUEST up there...I was joking about the charisma, okay?

Some good points up there about how if we were born in a different culture, we'd see it a whole lot differently. This is something one needs to be aware of, before routinely demonizing the chosen "enemy" of the day.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:55 PM

DougR,

I've been following alot of the links I have found about the School of the Americas. I suppose they are right, there are graduates that have done horrible acts. So following that logic, we should close down the law enforcement (there are many corrupt cops, some actually killed people that didn't deserve it), Ban any form of organized religion (religion has been used as an excuse for so many crimes), ban the national guard (People so love to throw the words Kent State around), Ban Lawyers (Not a bad idea, after all, some knowingly get guilty people out of trouble). Ban Judges (Some actually took bribes). Ban the Government (They have lied in the past to us and have always turned a blind eye towards the suffering of others).

My point is... I don't read into the propaganda of either side. Sure, people left the school of the Americas and commited horrible crimes. But, is that the school or the individual? I would say it is the individual that chooses his 'moral path' and is the one that should be held accountable for his/her actions.

But what is the fun in all that, after all, if we all hold ourselves accountable. Then we would have no leg to stand on when condemning people that do not believe as we do. I still see posts, from time to time, railing on about how Gore won the election. Never mind the electorial college, never mind the constitution, Never mind the arguments that raged about it before because now our guy lost. Now you have to blame those regan appointed judges, the currupt counters, the machines... never yourself... did you hold up a sign, did you help others register to vote, did you talk about politics to try to sway friends, did you do anything other than cast your ballot (or not!). If all you did was your duty to vote, then perhaps you should shoulder part of that blame yourself. Not just with the election, but with all things. People do choose to be uninformed, or informed only on what they need. Choose to be a little different. Choose to look at all sides, not just a political stand your party takes. I see alot of that here, on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM

Don't expect any argument from me, Just a Nobody.

CarolC, where are you???

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM

I'm sure if Bin Laden gets to trial, that kind of argument about his training camps is going to be exactly along those lines, nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM

Right--we should hold individuals accountable but not governments who murder 80,000 of their own citizens (El Salvador). Not the death squads of Latin America. Not those who overthrow democratically elected governments. All done with the assistance and support of the US government, the CIA, and the School of the Americas.

I'm sure it was just a few bad apples that have been responsible for the killing fields in Latin America since the 1980s. Just a few bad apples.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM

DougR, I'm tired. You wouldn't want to take advantage of a poor, worn out, tired person who just had a fantastic time at a folk music weekend getaway, and is currently enjoying the strange and mysterious environs of Mudcat headquarters, and who will be having the time of her life at the concert and radio show at the Iron Hill Brewery tomorrow night, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:55 PM

Guest,

I would say that you can hold a government responsible, or any organization for that matter. Because even though I believe in individual responsibility, I do see how governments will condone those sort of behaviors. I have seen little direct evidence against the School of the Americas, other than a connection that some, not the majority, but some, were trained there. I looked on the SOAW sites, I found little other than acusations without fact. In all honesty, they did a piss poor job of educating the public to the School of Assassination. The point I was trying to make, Guest, is that people that say it trains terrorists are correct. The military trains terrorists all the time. There are thousands of demolitions experts, marksmen, chemists and so on, all trained by the military. Thier purpose is simple, defend, support, and kill. Very, very, simple. But that does not make their training evil, or as one poster remarked "They are Terrorists" There is a huge difference between guerilla warfare and ramming an airplane into a sky scraper. There is a huge difference between attacking a military target and planting a carbomb in a shopping district. Yes, I hold the individual responsible for thier actions. I also hold those that encourage their skills and training to be used intentionally against the innocent. So yes, I would say the governments and the leaders of groups could be just as easily to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

nobody, I congratulate the upon the steps you have taken toward a better understanding. Still, I know of no great humanitarian achievments of the School of the Americas.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

That is not thier purpose or thier goal... Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

Damn straight, "nobody". Their purpose and their goal is victory.

However, the purpose or goal of an enlightened individual (I believe) is to improve the condition of all humanity, not just the people in his own particular special interest group or nation.

This is why enlightened individuals tend to sometimes end up getting shot (Gandhi) or crucified (Christ), unless they restrict their activities to a few quiet Ashrams and stay out of the mainstream of social action.

I regard the CIA pretty much as I would regard the KGB or Al Queda...dangerous, secretive, partisan, and extremely unenlightened in their aims and objectives. I do not consider them legit simply because they are operating under the authority of an established government.

But if you're after victory, rather than brotherhood, then you will definitely find people like the CIA or the KGB extremely useful in pursuing your aims. And if you're after mere vengeance, then Al Queda will come through for you, as will the others.

To quibble then that one band of scoundrels is better than another strikes me as a diversion from much more important considerations on behalf of the whole human race. People everywhere need housing, medical care, jobs, decent pay levels, education, human rights, democracy, and basic freedoms. If as much effort was put into achieving that as has been put into achieving military and commercial supremacy, you would see a world transformation way beyond any of our past positive accomplishments.

If the United States were to stop allying itself with any dictator, oppressive regime, and corrupt monarch who dances according to their explicit instructions, and instead support actual positive social changes in the 3rd world, terrorists would soon find virtually no recruits to fill their ranks, and their reason for existence would be gone.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:15 AM

No way, Carol! Even I'm not that cruel! After I posted that "where are you Carol message" I learned where you are. Have a Ball, get rested up and get back into the ring when you are up to it!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM

Couldn't have said it better, Little Hawk.

As to "evidence" just a nobody--why are you so lazy? Why do you expect others to gather information to you and present it in a form amenable to you?

This information about what YOUR government, YOUR tax dollars have been doing in YOUR name in Latin America. Is it true? Is it lies and misinformation? An upstanding world citizen, let alone any American one, would find out. If it is true, they would try and do something to stop it. If it were a lie, they would expose it.

That is the price of freedom in a democratic society. Not how much an F-11 or a smart bomb costs.