BS: horse cart wheels (UK)

Subject: BS: horse cart wheels
From: romanyman
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:09 PM

now mudcat has experts in every catagory, this i know, so , does any one know where there are any carriage or cart wheels for sale, im trying to restore a late 1800s picnic carriage, but wheelwrights want mega bucks to fix the wheels, so i thought id just change them, any ideas, over to you

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels
From: open mike
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM

might want to change to rubber tires for a smoother ride?
not original period look, but might work.

we have had discussions here about VARDO

these are beautiful, enticing, enchanting rigs!

here are a few links...may not be wheel wrights..

http://www.enslin.com/rae/gypsy/wagon.htm

http://www.gypsyvans.com/

http://www.speedace.info/gypsy_caravan.htm

http://gypsywaggons.co.uk/

http://caravans.oros.org/Caravan/Gypsy_Caravan.html

good luck and let us know what you find!

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 10:10 PM

I'd like to see a horse do a cart wheel....

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 01:06 PM

In the 1800s here (US) it was assumed that any decent farmer should be able to make a new wagon wheel, or rebuild a broken one, with an axe and a scrap or two of wood - as long as the two or three iron parts (mostly rings) could be hammered straight enough. If you have iron spokes, it likely takes a little more acquired skill, and you might have to build yourself a back yard forge.

In the UK, for the time suggested, there was probably more common use of "factory made" wheels less amenable to home repair.

In either area, there was sufficient variation in methods that "picnic carriage" doesn't say much (to me) about the specifics of the wheels you want to fix/replace.

It might be more likely to elicit useful suggestions if you could provide more specific description of the original wheels - size and construction - for which you need replacements(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:32 PM

In Australia, there are regular public demos of heat shrinking the iron band onto wooden wheels - I assume someone must be making these replacement wheels.

I only mention this because Aussie Ironbark BARK is used to get the iron up to red heat, and only fairly small quantities are needed.

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: romanyman
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM

all of which are usefull, but sadly still only three wheels on my carriage, many of my romany friends have cart wheels available, but they are not the larger finer carriage wheels, oh well keep on searching, i know where there are a pair some posh geezer has had made into a pair of gates, hmm if ya hear of a pair of gates goin missin , it wernt me guv honest

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM

Teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but if you put the word out at Iwade tomorrow you might get a nibble. It is tomorrow isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:42 PM

In the 1800s here (US) it was assumed that any decent farmer should be able to make a new wagon wheel

Sorry John, but not really - that's why there were artisans called "Wheelwrights" and "Blacksmiths" who made good livings & were an esential part of most communities.

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: open mike
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:16 AM

and on the Ponderosa ranch...the Cartwrights probably could make a good wheel, or some of their ancestors could...

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:56 AM

No, they made wagons & buckboards......

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 10:06 PM

You know, now that I think of it, I've never see a horse do cartwheels....

I'll get me hat...

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:01 PM

I think that Rapaire said it first. That's the trouble with posting without reading the thread, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:46 PM

And the problem with being anonymous, that people don't know whether you are just a nasty person trying to hide, or someone known and loved, but just dumb, who didn't realise that I was just commenting on Rapaire (as he and I have been known to do that sort of comedy routine here before).... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: romanyman
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:21 PM

Iwade no good, as for making a wheel yeh right even an idiot knows how difficult and skillfull you have to be, even today it takes at least five years to learn how, thats without the outlay of tools and equipment, yup thats why there are and were wheelwrights

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:13 AM

romanyman-

Would you post a link of an image of the wheel in question?

It's still not clear to me what parts are iron and what parts are wood.

Charley "Horse" Noble

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 10:06 AM

It's still not clear to me what parts are iron and what parts are wood.

Apparently you've never seen a carriage wheel.

Try the slide show here:

http://www.history.org/almanack/life/trades/tradewhe.cfm

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:44 PM

Greg-

That Williamsburg website certainly has a good description of vintage wheels, and they are similar in structure to the ones I ran across on the farm when I was growing up in Maine. But I wasn't sure if that were the case in England.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: horse cart wheels (UK)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:26 PM

Dover has published a book on carriage construction. Of course it's a reprint of an old (out of ©) book. Unfortunately it's in one of the 140 book boxes we haven't unpacked since our move, and I don't recall specifically how much detail on wheel construction was included.

Most such wheels have a metal hub that's pushed into the wooden center hub, and it's critical that the finished outside arc of the finished wheel must be true and concentric with the axle hub; but most other dimensions are fairly non-critical.

It's usual to have a metal ring around each end of the wooden hub, inboard and outboard, for reinforcement; and proper use of well-fitted hub rings permits making the wooden hub as a single piece (preferred) or as multiple arc segments held together by the rings.

A metal "rim" around the outside of the wheel holds everything together. The rim must be fairly exact in circumference; but it's the assembled wooden parts that make it - and keep it - round.

All three of the metal rings (hub and periphery) need to be a fairly heavy force-fit to the wood, to keep things from flying apart when the wheel flexes under load. On heavier wagon wheels, it was quite common to use screws through the "tread ring" to help hold it on, but for light carriage wheels these might be omitted. Without the additional holding provided by screws (or pins) the fit of the outer rim does become much more critical, and a relatively heavier "shrink" is needed.

The spokes must be closely fitted to the chiselled "square" holes in the hub; but the fit of spokes to the outer rim is somewhat less critical, although they should be quite close and a "force fit" is wanted at both ends.

Especially if one has an existing wheel to use as a pattern, it should be quite possible to make all the wooden parts with common hand tools, although getting good fit at all the joints may be rather tedious - especially for someone lacking practice at wood working.

Making a "good looking" wheel takes a lot more practice than making one that will "do the job."

The inner hub, to mate with the axle, is the most critical "manufactured" part normally required. The hub rings and outer wheel rim must be of fairly precise circumference, but the wood can be shaped to accomodate small deviations, so "close enoough is good enough."

In my area, I'd go talk to the "townies" at the Amixh center down at Yoder; but I wouldn't really expect to find a "wheelwright." For a fair price, one of the farmers likely would make - or find - a suitable buggy wheel if asked by the right intermediary.

John