Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?

Subject: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

The best folk singers I know of my ageing generation play a good intricate rhythmic style. A new singer coming along to our singaround plays a similar dynamic rhymic style (not to be confused with the basic Dylan Bashing singers common at Open Mic platforms).

What has been the domimant style in the last 30 years? The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc. Is this dated as a style and has therefore been a turnoff for a new younger generation of guitar playing singers trying out Folk Clubs?

Nothing against people playing this style by the way - many friends do! But is it nevertheless a turnoff to style influenced youngsters?


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM

I think you have to learn slow/careful/sedate fingerpicking before you can learn to really fingerpick. I did, anyway.

Have patience! The end product is worth the long slow apprenticeship.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:43 PM

Yep. The careful Travis pick is no delight, and is best done until one's fingers bleed, in the privacy of an upstairs bedroom. When you can set a pace that is right for the song, THEN take it to the street.


A

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM

…… not to be confused with the basic Dylan Bashing singers………

…… The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc……..

Ian,

I'm a fingerpicker and feel that I should be able to comment but I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you expand a little for simple minds like mine?


DC

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

Oops! That was me above.

DC

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:31 AM

As a listener (my very limited finger playing does not put me in a position to judge as a performer) I'd say that although clawhammer and Travis picking lend themselves well to a quantity of America material, for interpreting English folk music many of the best accompanists (of themselves or others) clearly reveal that they were originally classical guitar players, and that the other most apparently apt approaches are based on Nic Jones and Martin Carthy (well, what most people think of as characteristic Martin Carthy, he is actually very adept in a range of styles) styles.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:32 AM

Don't know what is meant by 'prissy finger-picking', but a shift in dynamics from a rousing, fast-paced number played plectrum style to a quietly played fingerstyle song w/o losing the intensity of the performance is a very effective presentation tool. When playing open stages I learned very quickly to 'listen' to the previous performer and take my cue for a first selection from the tempo/intensity of the previous performer's last song. As I progressed to getting booked I simply strung together a series of 'mini-sets' to make one long one...45-60 mins @ 3-4 song intevals. Keep explanations to a minimum and don't speak for more than 3 times per set other than to announce the song, title and how it lates to your life experience. Whether you wrote it or not.

The 'secret' to good finger picking is in the right hand. One can obtain a variety of dynamics by just shifting the palm against the strings at certain points in the song to 'choke' the bass strings while holding simple, basic chord forms. And learning to play the melody of the song always makes for an effective instrumental break. Even if one doesn't get the exact notes just hinting at the melody is usually enough.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:34 AM

Ed: That should read 'how it RElates to your...etc.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM

"...One can obtain a variety of dynamics by just shifting the palm against the strings at certain points in the song to 'choke' the bass strings while holding simple, basic chord forms ..."

Please God, no.

This is the singer-songwriter cliché style so beloved by open mike participants nationwide...

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM

Ian - I wonder if I might be the "new singer coming along to our singaround" mentioned in your post? As you know I played I'll See You In My Dreams at your session recently.

It's a moderately difficult Travis-style number, and my own arrangement. I'd be damned annoyed if it put newbies off, though!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:54 AM

Ian - just read your original reference to this style in the "Why folk clubs are dying" thread. Glad to hear it wasn't me you were referring to. Far from being a young performer at your session, I was probably the oldest there - hurray!

It's interesting that over here in the UK, we refer to quasi-Travis style picking as a "clawhammer" - which is really not what this style is. I may be wrong, but I would have thought true clawhammer was really the guitar style of Maybelle Carter. Experts will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong...

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:11 AM

Adopt as varied a range of styles as possible I would have thought. I would think any style would cause people to switch off if it's used ad nauseam for every song.

My ultimate model would be the great Doc Watson who is adept at a great range of both finger and flat picking styles.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:16 AM

Ian you've hit on something. Its that 60's generation. Their fingers were on drugs.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM

I must admit , I marginally prefer prissy fingerpicking to thumb strumming.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:40 AM

Well, calling anything "prissy" is automatically damning it.

I like finger-picking sometimes, and sometimes not. I don't usually like pattern-picking over and over, the same pattern, but this, too, can be effective. It's fairly easy, not much more difficult than strumming, and people can get quick results and be able to accompany themselves. Nothing wrong with that.

I sometimes find rather fancy finger-picking oppressive to listen to and don't do much fancy picking myself, although I do mostly play finger-style.

I'm afraid I don't care in the slightest about what young people like to listen to, rapidly approaching middle-age, as I am.*

To my way of thinking, the point of "finger-picking" is polyphonic playing. At a certain point, the distinction blurs between playing chord melodies combined with runs, pattern-picking, and polyphonic playing as in the music of, e.g., John Dowland or Sylvius Leopold Weiss. My goal is to be able to play freely and by ear. I haven't acheieved this, but I feel that I'm approaching it. I have good days and bad days.

One can play in a similar style using a flat pick. There are advantages and disadvantages to this, too.



* Don't tell him, but he's reached it.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:06 AM

Yes - I was going to ask: why "prissy"? Getting a good Travis-style piece going, with variations around the melody is anything but prissy - it's hard work that generates callouses like elephant's feet on the fretting finger ends! (Well, mine are).

Yes - a whole evening of this stuff could actually be boring but, interspersed among songs, or used as a backing for some songs, can add a great deal of variety to a performance.

What's harder, IMHO, is the hybrid picking with plectrum & fingers. I use this where the acoustics of the venue require increased volume - and, watching Richard Thompson doing it superbly on Hard News - must practice more!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:28 AM

Wha!!!!!!
Where do I find examples of claw hammer,Travis,and prissy so I can become informed please?
Hi Dougie

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Two of a Hind
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

Nobody seems to have mentioned if the song needs drive and rhythm or is better suited to individual notes being picked to accompany a more melodic type of delivery and generaly slower song. I use both, depends on the song.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM

bugger that - shakey eggs all round is what i say!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:36 AM

whether to strum or to pluck
I'm not being rude, but just look
its well known that 'strum'
rhymes eas'ly with bum
I just knew that you wouldn't give a fuck

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

If you hate when they call you a sissy,
There's no need to get in a tizzy:
Just strum in the way
That is taught by Mel Bay,
And don't pick in a style that's prissy.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

its possible to use the plectrum in much the same way as fingerpicking,example fingerpicking ripple in 3/4,can be emulated with a plectrum,the only thing a plectrum cant copy are two notes plucked together.
prissy fingerpicking is a generalisation,quite frankly if anyone is put off by good music [fingerpicking or otherwise],Icouldnt give a fiddlers fart if theyare 19 or 99,they are best off somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:49 AM

Because I'm a rancid old soak,
I like to play tricks on the "folk".
I dazzle the singers
With twinkling fingers
And larf while I watch 'em all choke!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: LesB
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

"Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?"
not to me, but as soon as I see someone pick up a guitar to perform & then the frantic strumming starts, then that's a turn off (for me).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

Speaking totally as a spectator who basically doesn't play guitar, I'd have to say this is a tempest in a teapot. As Amos says, the only important thing is that the style serve the song. Obviously if the style slows down the song so that it seems labored, the style of accompaniment, whatever that style, has to change. Even if it's just an instrumental, again the main thing is that the melody flows. As to if "prissy" (obviously a negative judgment right off the bat) style puts off young folkies, you'd have to ask them directly. The chance that young folkies would be perusing this thread is likely quite small.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: breezy
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

'prissy' to me would imply simple arpeggio finger-work with the thumb playing a bit of melody.

A 'picker' is way beyond that stage and is 'macho' and probably took awhile to master

yes? No? who cares anyway?

Now if only I could understand frayling

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

frailing, Breezy.
pick the melody with a down usually middle or index finger,then brush bum ditty, or bum titty ,best practised on a g string, belonging to a young woman.,but you could get two black eyes.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

Frantic strumming and picking that is so unpractised as to interrupt the song and draw attention to the technique is always offputting. When the technique interrupts instead of supporting the communication, artistry has failed.


A

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Real men smash their guitars onstage. :)

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

I get the impression that people are using the term "fingerpicking" in a couple of different ways.

Some people seem to be referring to playing with the fingers as contrasted with "thumb-strumming" or playing with a pick. This would, of course, cover everything from "Burl Ives Basic" to Andrés Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne.

Others seem to be referring to Travis picking and it's clones and variations ("alternating bass").

Could folks pin down what they're really talking about? I think that might help.

General comment:    an accompaniment should accompany, not be the main thing. If you err, you should err on the side of simplicity. That way, people might not by impressed by your guitaristic razzle-dazzle, but they'll have a chance to actually hear the song.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:58 PM

These finger patterns are what I think are part of what I would call "fingerpicking": Rough Guide To Fingerpicking

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM

"General comment:    an accompaniment should accompany, not be the main thing. If you err, you should err on the side of simplicity. That way, people might not by impressed by your guitaristic razzle-dazzle, but they'll have a chance to actually hear the song."

Absolutely on the button, Don. I got some good advice from a well-known (in the UK) and very talented guitarist, "When you're performing in public, always play within your limits - that way, no one will know what your limits are"! It works.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM

Good stuff, Will! Very straightforward and understandable demonstration of what's going on.

The early part, such as "thumb-fingers, thumb-fingers" is what I refer to (or have heard referred to) as "Burl Ives Basic." In fact, he did little else. Then you have some arpeggio patterns and what Pete Seeger referred to as the "lullabye lick."

Then, in "7 – Basic Fingerpicking," is what I was taught as a basic pattern for learning "alternating bass plus melody," followed by "8 – Basic Clawhammer" and on into—yup—Freight Train.

Anybody who wants to learn this should bookmark your demo! I wish I'd had an intro like this when I first started to learn it. Excellent!

What I was whining about above is that some people use "fingerpicking" to refer to anything done with the fingers and thumb, while others reserve the term for "clawhammer" and beyond. Get's confoosin'!

Don Firth

P. S. I'm going to have to investigate the rest of the stuff you've put on YouTube!

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM

MR Fly,thanks for that matey was very handy vid.
Hi there BWM hope you enjoyed christmas and new years pickling season.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

My style was a modified Travis style that tended to being more like Jack Elliott flatpicking thumb-strum but with treble melody, or melody-type runs on the bass strings in between the sung lines. When singing I would fill more with bass-strum rhythmic Carter Family strums that wouldn't get in the way of the message of the song.

Sooooo, I guess my picking was more prissy when I was singing than when I was doing the more intricate fingerpicking between verses and lines.

It helped me push the story in the song to the fore---which was my main intent!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

One summer many years ago (I was just getting into folk music and learning to play the guitar at the time), I worked for a picture framer. Many well-known artists took their paintings to this guy to frame for gallery showings and that sort of thing because his frames were always tasteful, appropriate, and unobtrusive.

He told me that the way to do a good frame for a particular painting was to study the painting, then pick a shape for the molding that repeated a shape within the painting, then assess the colors and paint the frame a neutral color that was blend of the colors in the painting. "Pick up themes from the painting itself," was the way he put it.

He went on to say, "A good frame should set the painting off in space, but it must never draw attention to itself. If people look at a painting and say, 'What a great frame!' then it's not a great frame at all. It has failed in it's purpose."

I thought about that a lot, and decided that it's also a good philosophy for working out guitar accompaniments for songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM

Whatever suits the song, and doesn't get in the way. And it should never sound like the guitarist (or whatever the inmstruiment may be) is finding it difficult, even if it is.

And I'd say "the best folk singers I know of my ageing generation" are just as likely as not to be singing unaccompanied.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

I don't quite understand why there is a tendency amongst some to be disdainful or dismissive of certain playing techniques.

This comment, "The best folk singers I know of my ageing generation play a good intricate rhythmic style." overlooks the fact that different traditions use different playing styles--and it imposes an across the board one size fits all approach that is not unlike the standardization of pop music.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: breezy
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

You were right Capn

She missed me eyes

got me on the nose

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:08 PM

It's not the prissy fingerpicking that troubles me, it's the little knitted caps and the button-down sweaters. And the argyle knee socks! Argh.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM

In my post at the beginning of this thread, I said that I didn't understand what was meant by the phrase:

…… The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc……..

Having viewed the YouTube link, "Rough Guide to Fingerpicking", provided by Will Fly, I find that clawhammer is pretty much the style that I play, although I have never heard it referred to by that term.

Prompted Will's comment on Ian Fyvie's original reference to this style in the "Why folk clubs are dying" thread, I went there and read:

……True, I'm really unimpressed with the clawhammer stuff -……

Let me hazard a guess -   Ian, you can't do it, can you?


DC

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

Oh bugger! Why do I keep losing my cookie?

DC

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:57 AM

In answer to the thread question. imo, no. However, prissy nosepicking sure is.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:45 AM

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

"Some people seem to be referring to playing with the fingers as contrasted with "thumb-strumming" or playing with a pick. This would, of course, cover everything from "Burl Ives Basic" to Andrés Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne.

Others seem to be referring to Travis picking and it's clones and variations ("alternating bass").

Could folks pin down what they're really talking about? I think that might help."

This is pretty much what I mean when I talk about finger-picking. It's picking with the fingers, with or without fingerpicks and a thumb pick rather than strumming or using a flat pick.

I've never bothered too much about this style, that style, what Merle Travis did, what Joseph Spence did, etc. I just don't care. Other people do, and it's great if someone wants to really study the different styles and techniques.   I like to listen to all of these different guitarists, but I prefer to practice other things. The idea is the same whether it's _Freight Train_ or _Flow My Tears_.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:54 AM

Actually, I think the main difference between Renaissance and Baroque style polyphonic lute and guitar music and folk, blues and country fingerpicking is that the former doesn't commonly use fixed patterns, repeated over and over, and the rhythm often has more pauses. When fingerpickers vary what they play and especially when they play a melody, it comes much closer to the older styles. At a certain point, the distinction ceases to be meaningful.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:01 AM

finger picking clawhammer sounds pretty good in open tunings too,using modal chords,for traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: GUEST,Will Fly, out gigging
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

Don Firth

P. S. I'm going to have to investigate the rest of the stuff you've put on YouTube!

Don - I hope you find useful things there. The main purpose of my YT channel is to either demonstrate fingerstyle technique in fairly straightforward arrangements, or to provide instructional vids. And there's some fun stuff, of course! If you go to my website (there's a link on my YT channel to the URL), you'll also find free sheets containing SN, tab & chords for many of the arrangements, plus free audiofiles of some of the pieces. My YT philosophy is, basically, after benefiting from the generosity of other guitarists in my early days, now I'm in my 60s - it's payback time, i.e. time for me to try and help others!

Mind you, it's not all easy - take a peek at "Ragtime Charleston" and "Fingerbuster" (60 seconds of hell)... :-) Will

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

"I hope you find useful things there."

I'm sure I will. I've played classic for years, so working out accompaniments from dead simple to pretty complex is fairly easy for me. But long ago I heard the "alternating bass" or "clawhammer" style and tried to figure it out without much luck until someone showed me a couple of patterns. I was able to work out Freight Train, Railroad Bill, and a number of others. But I've never been able to just haul off and do it as well and as cleanly as I would like.

I'm sure your videos are going to help me smooth over a lot of rough spots. Thanks a million!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

as you all know I'm not biased.

However it seems to me that fingerpickers are the spawn of Satan. One day God will smite them unto the tenth generation and they will be cast out of the folk world for ever.

When I hear Seth Lakeman and his shakey egg 4-string guitar and fiddle accompaniments, I know we have been redeemed.

Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:18 PM

I've seen you fingerpickin' Al! :-)