BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport (2007)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:20 AM

Too bad they didn't fork out a little money for some customer relations. People in Vancouver are disgusted and furious that such bad publicity would occur prior to the 2010 Olympics. What does it say about security? How safe will people feel when landing at YVR?

Most people employed by the airlines, the airport and Customs treat you like cattle even when you do speak English. Its very sad that somebody has had to die to call attention to it.

Yes, the RCMP were wrong to taser him but I think it will eventually come out that it was not the taser that killed him. When somebody puts all their weight on the head and neck of a man, what do you think would happen? Combine that with another guy putting weight on his lungs and you don't have much of a chance, whether or not you have been tasered.

The victim was not struggling. His movements after the tasering were involuntary. Its obvious to me that the RCMP are very poorly trained. There are far too many "accidental" deaths in BC as a result of RCMP brutality. I'm sick of it and both the RCMP and the Vancouver police should never be allowed to investigate themselves. Independent inquiries are long overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:10 AM

Independent inquiries should take place every time a cop draws a weapon. That includes batons, Tasers, firearms, blackjacks, saps, and anything else that can kill. A full-scale investigation should happen if a cop fires a weapon even if death or wounding does not result.

Such methods protect both the citizenry AND the cops.

But of course, most places in the US have citizen review boards...and not all of them rubber-stamp police actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: 3refs
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

I urge you all to look at the video closely.
When the Mounties arrived and confronted Mr.Dziekanski, he seemed to comply, and most importantly, his hands are empty. He moved over as directed, further inside the containment area. Mr.Dziekanski turned towards the glass. Then, he suddenly turned around which caused the officers in view of the camera to quickly jump back and take a more defensive posture. He is almost immediately hit with the taser from his left side. Have a look at Mr.Dziekanski's right hand. You will see that he had grabbed something. You can't really tell what it is, but there are no doubts that whatever it was, wasn't in his hand 5sec before!

What took place after Mr.Dziekanski was secured is of more concern to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM

Mr.Dziekanski was holding a stapler in his hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:34 PM

So much for arms length, independent investigation too, even the Coroner assigned to examine this case is an ex-cop.

According to a report that was on the CBC earlier, on average, 18 people a year, die while in police custody in BC. Unlike concern about this Province's image as a result of a possible death of a prospective tourist, arriving at the airport, there's never been much public outcry here about the alarming statistics regarding the usual ongoing casualties.

Perhaps because there are few pictures and the public seems to be able to dismiss those victims as just the usual human flotsom....just some drunken Indian, an annoying loonie street person, another junkie or crackhead....not worth much bother, even in death.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

Damn right. Shovel 'em under and forget about 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:36 AM

As reported on CNN this morning...
There are now special phone numbers to call when you see or are subject to airport abuse by TSA or guards, or if you are stranded on the runway for hours.
People are encouraged to video any or all the abuse that they encounter.

It is hoped that abuse will be less if the abusers know they too are being watched.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

Interesting if you live in the US Donuel, but that number would have no application in Canada, yet.

Because of international and local public outrage, the BC government has finally announced a full public inquiry into the whole event. Prior to this and despite the fact that the RCMP has a huge bootprint in this province and been involved in some very questionable incidents, the BC government has always maintained that it has had no juisdiction regarding the behavior of the RCMP here. It has always insisted oversight and investigation, regarding the force, was the responsibility of the Feds and the RCMP itself.

Maybe something good will come of it. The cynic in me is still not 100% assured.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:10 PM

I just came from a meeting where the police chief discussed the possibility of the city using Tasers. He said that the policy, which would be STRICTLY enforced, would be the same as that for using any other weapon AND that the Tasers (which have an electronic "logbook" built in) would be reviewed weekly.

He came here from Florida 40 days ago, and he said that the biggest problem they had in Florida was cops Tasering other cops while "grab-assing."

He isn't going to have that here...or other problems. He also said that he has no doubt that a death will occur, probably because the subject was on meth or cocaine.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:18 PM

Point to discuss:

IF the fatality occurs because the person being tazzed is using an ILLEGAL drug, and the use of the tazer is justified by the actions of the person AND the situation, what is the culpability of the person doing the tazzing?


What if the drug was a LEGAL one ( ie, medication prescribed by doctor)?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

the answer is in your statement. If use of the taser is justified by the actions of the person and the situation than Id say the use of it is justified..

put it another way with respect to illegal drugs, do the police have the right to shoot to kill someone using illegal drugs?

the drugs may be illegal but its not the death penalty.

(just like the kid in Vancouver who answered the door with a tv remote in his hand -.. the police who were at the door shot and killed him because they thought he had a phaser.) ok thats a different story..
but they went unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

"do the police have the right to shoot to kill someone using illegal drugs?"

BUT, if the reason that the person is killed is because he/she is on illegal drugs ( ie, if not on drugs, the ( justified) use of the tazer would NOT have killed them) is that different? Does the user have any responsibility for his/her use of the illegal drug aggrievating the situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM

If you are using drugs and acting in a manner that is life threatening to yourself or others I see no problem with using whatever means is available to stop you. That includes, in the worst case, shooting you dead.

The legality or illegality of the drugs being used is irrelevant. It is your actions that are causing the problem.

A friend of mine once smoked some grass and spent the next two hours staring at a faucet drip. No problem with his actions.

A local guy used some meth AND PCP and started a fight which ended when he shot a bystander in the stomach. He then got in his car and fled "at a high rate of speed." The police finally cornered him in a deadend street and he rammed two police cars. Finally, he killed his engine and the cops dragged him out while he was trying to restart the car. He's lucky they didn't shoot him, which they would have if they had to. BIG problems with his actions.

I take metformin. If this made me dangerous to be around, the police would be justified in taking the steps necessary to protect the public, themselves, and me. (Yes, I know that metformin doesn't work like that and mania isn't a side effect.)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Tasers can kill. They can kill perfectly healthy drug-free people. They should never be used except in circumstances when it would be justified to use a gun if a taser was not available.

Would you disagree with that, bruce?

If it is justified to use a taser, it doesn't become unjustified because someone dies, whether this is because of some circumstances that could make them especially vulnerable, such as a bad heart or some legal or illegal drug in their system, or because they are just unlucky.

But if it is not justified to use a taser, because it wouldn't have been justifiable in the circumsatnces to use a gun, it doesn't become justified just because it turns out that the person targeted does not die. It should still be treated as a criminal and disciplinary offence.

And this kind of reasoning should apply in the case of civilians using tasers. When they are used in criminal activities this should be treated as assault with a deadly weapon.

If someone dies as a result of being shot with a taser who would not have died if they had not been shot with a taser, the taser has to be recognised as having caused that death.

Or would it be right for a thief who shoots a shop worker with a taser to be able to avoid being convicted for murder when the victim dies, just because they turn out to have a mild heart condition that could have made them more at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

This would probably have worked better than a taser
a href="http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/p/57-Green-Laser-Stars-LaserStars-Holographic-Projector.html">http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/p/57-Green-Laser-Stars-LaserStars-Holographic-Projector.html

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

Better yet the police should have given the guy a hot dog and soda.

I'm serious!


Does wonders for blood sugar ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

to make matters worse, a Polish and Russian speaking man who worked at the airport wasn't asked for help although he was fired

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:40 AM

Not just in Canada - here's a pretty shocking story in England that has just emerged into public view. Diabetic in coma shot with Taser out of fear he was suicide bomber

It involved one Nicholas Gaubert, who fell into a diabetic coma on a bus was tasered by police in Yorkshire because he didn't respond to pilic echallenges, being unconscious at the time. He had a rucksack with him and "looked Egyptian".

"Mr Gaubert learnt recently, however, that neither the West Yorkshire force nor any of its officers was to be charged with any offences in relation to the shooting. The two officers on the bus have also not yet faced any internal disciplinary action.

Still I suppose he was lucky he wasn't killed like Jean-Charles Menezes a few days later.

It's impressive the way the authorities have managed to keep this out of the public view for all this time. The British police are pretty good at doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

Ours just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole.

In an interview, in which he defended the current use of tasers, B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police president, Gord Tomlinson, offered an apology to the family of Mr. Dziekanski, admitted that the public trust had been eroded (duh) and said he welcomed a full review, in order to restore confidence. (yeah, right)

Given the following admission, if past behavior is any indication, a review and recommendations by a civilian authority, that might interfere with how the boys think they should deploy their own toys, seems to have been summarily dismissed or ignored.

It was pointed out to Tomlinson, that a Review by a panel of experts commissioned by the BC government, had already done a Report on the use of Tasers and the Report, with its guidlines was sent to every Police Department in the Province 2 years ago.

The report stated that tasers were not to be used as a means to apprehend passive individuals, nor to be used for multiple hits and that when a person had been tasered, no weight should not be applied to the chest area, as it interfered with the individual's recovery from the tasering.

Tomlinson said he was not aware of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:50 PM

What pisses me off also, is that not only do the police here seem to ignore civillian authority, that report and its recommendations, made for very expensive toilet paper, courtesy of the BC taxpayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Mets, thanks for continuing to post the news from there. I hadn't posted before mostly because I didn't have much to say; just terribly sad and appalled at such stupidity and thinking about his mom and him having only a wall between them during all of this and not knowing. It's just horrible the way humans treat one another.

This esp. got me: ...tasers were not to be used as a means to apprehend passive individuals, nor to be used for multiple hits and that when a person had been tasered, no weight should not be applied to the chest area, as it interfered with the individual's recovery from the tasering.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:42 PM

30 people a year die riht after being tazed.

Last week a teenager here in MD died from being tazed twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM

What is still, if not more distressing is discussed in this video clip regarding why no CPR or help was immediately forthcoming, noted as More YVR Taser Concerns

Also note the cameras have started to go astray already.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:55 PM

"Zero tolerance" doesn't ever seem to be applied to actions carried out by the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

The christian group across the street believe in 0% for gays by removing them from employment by any means required, political action to deny marraige or civil rights and physical attacks when required. Tolerence itself is deemed the enemy.

I have a bad feeling about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:14 PM

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/nunion_dees.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:26 PM

Until every last terrorist is killed we can expect more of the same.

I think the next step will be people being taz3ed in the "privacy of their own homes". Perhpas during a secret search...
The Patriot Act's two most principle constitutional errors are an assault on the Fourth Amendment, and on the First. It permits federal agents to write their own search warrants [under the name "national security letters"] with no judge having examined evidence and agreed that it's likely that the person or thing the government wants to search will reveal evidence of a crime.

Remember that the British government permitted its soldiers to execute self-written search warrants. They called them "writs of assistance," and they were one of the last straws that caused American colonist to rebel. It's bitterly ironic that 230 years later a popularly elected government would authorize its own agents to do the same thing that when a monarchy did it, we fought a war of rebellion in reaction—which we won!

Not only that, but the Patriot Act makes it a felony for the recipient of a self-written search warrant to reveal it to anyone. The Patriot Act allows [agents] to serve self-written search warrants on financial institutions, and the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2004 in Orwellian language defines that to include in addition to banks, also delis, bodegas, restaurants, hotels, doctors' offices, lawyers' offices, telecoms, HMOs, hospitals, casinos, jewelry dealers, automobile dealers, boat dealers, and that great financial institution to which we all would repose our fortunes, the post office.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:48 PM

How to get tazered in your car... just follow orders.

video http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/23/intv.tasered.speeder.speaks.cnn

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:24 PM

Abuse of power by police forces (or certain individuals in police forces) has been a problem for a long, long time in just about every society I know of. It's not a problem that can ever afford to go ignored. I've witnessed it firsthand myself back in the 70s. What is most disturbing is when a supposedly responsible civil government, in the name of "national security" starts legislating away the constitutionally enshrined civil rights of its citizens. Then it is time for that government to clean up its act fast or get tossed out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:45 AM

This is another recent tragic result. A mentally ill man tasered and nearly dies in Halifax. Then he is taken to hospital but released back to police and dies in jail 30 hours later.
The spin is that it can't be the taser because of the time frame. The Halifax police have a video of the incident but have no interest in showing it to the public.
This illustrious force, a few years back, shot and killed a man for striking a squad car with a tentpole and were able to justify the action.
http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=83263&sc=89

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:31 PM

Yes, well, those squad cars cost money, you know...we can't lose sight of what is sacred now, can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:02 PM

One of the problems is that to recover from a taser, no pressure can be exerted to the chest or back.

Seems like the police are overlooking a not so minor detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:33 PM

And I am qyuite sure that the instructions given to police officers formusing tasers will include that kind of information, if only because the people who write those instructions need to cover their backs. Which means that police not following those instructions are in breach of discipline, regardless of whether that causes a member of the public to die.

That kind of thing was what I meant by the failure to apply "zero tolerance" to members of police forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:17 PM

They should have given Mr. Dziekanski a cigarette and a light. Screw the no-smoking laws. 3 Canadians in 6 weeks have died after being tasered. The UN has just declared that tasers are a form of torture. Then again, tasers don't torture people, other people do....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 04:59 PM

" . . . it would have been impossible to take this man to an office with a telephone and arrange for a Polish Translator to talk to the man. I believe that all that could have been accomplished within the first hour."

It would take about 15 minutes to find a person who speaks both languages. Page it out over the PA system.

A woman I know had a baby in Edmonton. About three hours after delivery, a nurse entered her room and asked if she could speak Italian. She said she could. The hospital needed someone to translate to English for a gal who'd just been brought in by ambulance. She went.

International airports are filled with people, many of whom speak more than English. As someone mentioned above, why the heck was this ppro fellow allowed to 'wander' the airport for 10 hours and receive no help?

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

Why? Total bloody incompetance and lack of basic commonsense or humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Something I've recently learned:

Convicts are teaching other convicts what to do if Tasered: drop and roll around.

The rolling around dislodges the Taser dart. That's why you would see cops pulling the Taser trigger several times until they get handcuffs on the culprit. Each pull of the trigger puts another jolt through the wires to which the dart is attached.

(Gad, the things I learn in life....)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Well, I heard they killed another one today...





I used to be in a Medieval recreation group.

I know how to knit a chain mail shirt - interlocking metal rings...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

BTW, "The Terminal" WAS BASED on real events - the guy was trapped in the terminal for months.. and eventually went insane, unlike Tom Hanks...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

Months? He was Mehran Karimi Nasseri, and it was in fact eighteen years. See here for the story.

The people in the Paris terminal weren't to blame, they seem to have behaved quite well - it was the bureaucracy outside. Maybe it was lucky he wasn't stuck in a Canadian airport with trigger happy Mounties on duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:37 AM

I meant years, sorry, too many Public Service flashbacks in the other thread.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:01 AM

my son, Andrew, worked in 'security' at the Van. Airport for awhile... that was about 7 years ago,(before 9/11).... he said that the attitude of his colleagues was arrogant bordering on racist, and that intimidation was common.... esp.toward people who were arriving as refugees. He would inform the arrivals, whenever possible, of their right to file a claim for refugee status while at the terminal.. and would just act in a humane manner, as these folks had left everything behind and were in a strange, new world.... many Roma were coming in from Eastern Europe, at the time, to escape persecution, once again... These 'travellers' were grateful for the kindness shown.. while his co-workers gave him ( and them ) a hard time.... he left that job after 2 years.... basically couldn't handle the bullshit.... too bad, one less real person at the gates of 'True North'

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

bankley, your son shared a similar experience to myself, when I was at YVR. I said I had hoped that it would have improved over the intervening years, but it sounds as if it was business as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

bankly, Your son is to be commended.
Its hard unforgiving work just to be nice and civil to people.
As a kid the condemnation came in the form of name calling like : niggar lover, jewish mother fucker, ad infinitum

but now as an an adult the code words are smoother and the retribution more insidious with a deluge of anonymous complaints to authorities and 2 AM telephone hang ups.

Tribal mentality comes out strongest in a climate of fear.
Sure every street has two sides but the first thing hateful greedy people forget is that there is only one world.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:04 PM

"A climate of fear" - including a climate of fear of losing your job if you stick out against the licensed hate-mongers, in a situation where workers in a de-unionised workforce are frighteningly vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

well, thanks, I'm proud of him.... he landed that job because of 3 yrs. service in the army... so, he's been around and is very aware.

There seems to be a lot of bad apples in the barrel. Rapaire's previous input was much appreciated. It's nice to know that there's still good ones out there, doing what they're really supposed to do. Protect and Serve.... the people....

besides, we're all immigrants. "Most of the ones that have been here longer don't know the name of the ship that brought their ancestors over".... got that line from a Mohawk lady.... R.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: bankley
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:36 PM

In related news: I've heard that a small airborne drone version of the Taser is set to be produced and sold internationally next year. It'll be able to send 50,000 volt bursts into crowds or at any 'suspect' on the ground. Doesn't sound like these saucers will 'come in peace'.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM

I was looking at a nature programme on TV, and they were traquillising a lion to transport them or tocarry out a meducal examination. And it occurred to me that if anyone were to propose using Tasers on animals, they'd risk being torn limb from limb by outraged members of the public. And quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

"2 AM telephone hang ups"

Ah - I finally snapped - got 'message answering' - the wankers who hang up as soon as I answer are happy, and now I'm happy too! :-)

I suspected that somebody was ringing just to check if I was at home, or 'somewhere else' - and I just got tired of killing nyself to get to the phone in a rush, only for some stalker, or telemarketing wanker!

Lots of telemarketers connect the call, and then play you music (whereupon _I_ would hang up!), or just just give you silence till they get around to allocating a person to talk... now they just waste their money, as the line just hangs up if they don't talk... :-)

For $6 a month, I get to tell people:

"This phone number has been registered with the Australia Govt 'Do Not Call' Register since inception. Don't bother to leave a message, as I won't listen to it. If you want to contact me, you'll just have to find another way, sorry."

All my friends have my mobile number, and the only 2 messages left so far have been both the recent Liberal and Labour party 'personal phone calls'... We have preferential voting in Australia, so I didn't vote '1' for EITHER... :-)

I mainly use the phone for dialup anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Canadians taser Polish man in airport
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:13 PM

Fox news had their typical argument over tazer use.
The pro guy compared them with shoes which kill a lot more people than tazers.
The moderator made fun of the UN for declaring that tazers are a form of torture.
And the anti guy was just told to shut up.