Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:21 AM

Salford, Salford, Salford, Salford SALFORD.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:24 AM

and the Sydney version.. (I live just down the road from Newtwon)


I scored my drugs - at the Bank Hotel
Saw a band at the Sandringham,
I snorted speed off a toilet seat
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Dogs are crapping on the street
Queens are prowling on their beat,
Springs a dyke, on a motor bike
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

I had a wank, down at the Hub
Had a lash, at the Hellfire Club,
I played some tunes, at the Carlisle Pub
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Gonna shave my head, gonna pierce my tongue,
Get a celtic cross - tatooed on my bum
Gonna shoot some smack, gonna dress in black,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown,
In dirty Newtown, dirty Newtown.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:46 PM

It was about Swinton near manchester but it didn't rhyme so he used Salford instead ;-)

Anyone mentioned that nothing else in the song rhymes either!!

Spot (from Swinton)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,rogthedodge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

As above Salford! and it's not a suburb it's the RC half of Manchester - it has it's own council, cathedral and an RC Arch Bishop (Manchester having a proddy one)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Nickthejack
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

The Song 'Dirty Old Town' was witten by Ewan MacColl and first performed by him so the Pogues version is just a 'cover'. It is of course about Salford, his birthplace - and mine.
Salford is a city in Greater Manchester but was formerly in the county of Lancashire. It is mainly separated from Manchester by the notorious river Irwell and is a city in its own right with its own council although it now shares some of Manchester's resources such as police and transport. Salford has a fine univerity, hospitals and lots of municipal parkland. The famous development of Salford Keys is situated in the city on the site of the Old Salford Docks, as is Old Trafford, the home of the great Manchester United soccer club.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

I was at Salford University in the mid 60's. In fact it became a University while I was there.

The third verse was sometimes sung locally as

Heard a siren from the docks
Saw a train set the night on fire
Smelt the smoke on the Salford wind
Dirty Old Town.

The song for me still conjures up images of Salford as it was at that time when there was still a lot of terraced housing about. Much of it seems to have gone now.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

I'm sure it's about Saint John, New Brunswick (Canada).

biLL :)

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Betsy
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:36 PM

If you can't find the answer in the 100-odd previous postings - I just don't know - I feel sure it was a shit hole near Manchester where I lost my driving licence - Salford - but One percent of me ( although he was singing about Salford) believes the poetical says sulphured wind .

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Brakn
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

I was told it was about Broadheath, Altrincham (they say, the first industrial estate) but I knew it was really about Salford. It is Salford!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:21 AM

Peggy give 'smokey wind' in the Ewan MacColl songbook, but there was never any doubt that he wrote it about Salford (The Venice of the North), he said so himself often enough.
He was quite proud that so many people from different areas of the globe identified with it enough to claim it as their own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

If you really want to you can drive down the M602 and at the end you can find the "Gas Works Croft" - a bit of waste land by the gas works. The last time I was there it was a derelict used car lot. Nearby is also the Manchester Ship Canal and the disused Manchester Bolton and Bury Canal (closed just prior to WW2). There are also plenty of railway lines where the glare from an open firebox door of a steam loco would certainly set the night on fire. I'm quite happy with Salford being the inspiration but you can apply the spirit of the song to many old industrial towns. Just as long as you don't present it as an Irish song by the Pogues which is what most pub bands seem to do. I've actually heard it sung in a Salford pub by a local guy in a cod-Irish accent.............

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:01 AM

such an iconic song has through time and oral transmission
far trancended its specific intended localized origins..

wha hey.. F@ck me.. did i write that !!????


i reckons it was writed down on paper about Bridgwater in somerset..




or if you want to get really dirty..



Highbridge..



basically its a song for any old school working class grammer school boy/girl

any where in the UK who was born back in the days before colour televisions and fitted catpets..

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,planktwatrockery
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 12:09 AM

"carpets"

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:05 PM

and 'Grammar'

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:12 PM

Salonika.

Oh, no, that was that other song...

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,GUEST, Johann Von Schmutzig
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Much more about the political twists of this fascinating life may be found in a new book by
Ben Harker: Class Act: The Cultural and Political Life of Ewan MacColl (London and Ann Arbor: Pluto, 2007).
excerpts here, including bits from James Henry Miller's military file:
http://www.balladofaccounting.com/ewanmac.php
Enjoy,
Johann

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor Mckwar
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:50 PM

OK. I've just come across this by accident as I was reading up on the old man(Ewan) as I come from Salford(I actually was born in Leith, Edinburgh, but moved here aged 3). The interesting thing about all this is just how much shite a lot of people here have written about this subject. Firstly, the song is written about Salford! Secondly, Salford IS NOT a borough of Manchester, we are a city in our own right!! It is true that geographically we are as siamese twins and due to the proximity we share a great deal socially and culturally, for example, Manchester United has always been considered to be a Salford mans football team, but we are still two separate cities with separate Councils and Courts. Furthermore, Greater Manchester DOES STILL EXIST and it covers a vast area which includes Salford, Manchester, Oldham, Bolton, Bury, Haywood and the list goes on and on. We all used to be Lancashire but they came up with the idea of Greater Manchester in the 70's and old Lancashire(which was vast and covered places from Liverpool to Blackburn) was simply split up in bits.

I know this was a bit of a rant but I'm tired and needed to put a few things straight as I appear to be the only person on here from Salford.

One last thing, in terms of people thinking there is a Celtic link to the song, that is understandable as MacColl was a Celt and a vast amount of people in these old North West Of England Industrial Cities have Celtic roots as vast amounts of people from Scotland and Ireland flooded here during the industrial Revolution. After all, as the crow flies we can only be about 200/250 miles away from Scotland and probably only 100/150 miles away from Ireland(that is a tired man's guess but it can't be far wrong) You only need to see the amount of Scots and Irish that turn up at Old Trafford on a weekend to get the idea!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:22 AM

There's quite a few of us from Salford here Gregor. It's such a good place top come from. It's about 120 miles to Scotland, 150 miles to Ireland (or 25 if Ireland begins at Knotty Ash), and 25000 miles to Yorkshire (the sensible way).

Glasgow, Glasgow, where are you?
180 from Salford.

Apologies to Ivor Cutler.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:42 AM

All along Regent Road there were shops, even 2 deparment stores! I remember being amazed at the overhead wires where clerks sent bills and invoices whizzing across customers heads in one of them. Can't remember what it was called though. wrote Dave Polshaw in 2004.

They had that sort of rig in Master's which was however on Broad Street. We used to get school uniforms from there- they had the monopoly, and were far too expensive for anything else. Most other stuff came from BHS on Regent Road. Don't forget that the shops ran right from the Woolpack at Pendleton Church though to Regent Road baths and beyond.

There was a railway from Windsor Bridge to the docks that ran through a tunnel right underneath St. Joseph's school playground- my dad taught there for some years. It was known as the Funda- because of the noise when a train went through it.

If anyone from that small part of the world which is not Salford would like to understand a little more of the environment McColl sang about, you could do a lot worse than get hold of Robert Roberts' books "The Classic Slum" and "A Ragged Schooling", both of which my father, from Salford though not Hanky Park, recognised as close to his own experience.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:01 AM

he (like many other Scots-born writers) had changed his name from Jimmie Miller to Ewan MacColl

I suppose that would explain how 'he' got so much work done...

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:30 AM

Oops - that last anonyGuest was me.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:24 PM

He might have written about Salford but I think he was heavily influenced by the time he spent in Cleveland barracks!!!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:01 PM

Just reading the sleeve notes on a recent compilation I have with Mr Mc himself singing 'Smelt the spring on the smokey wind'. Doesn't tell me when he sang it but one bit of alarming information did come to mind - Even Rod Stewart has recorded it! I always thought he was a closet folkie. The leopardskin tights were just to put us off the scent:-) And, yes, I do know Rod the Mod has also recorded other folk songs - even trying to claim Wild Mountain Thyme as his own!

Dunno if anyone is interested but I was quite proud of my little self recently when I re-wrote it here to reflect Salford as is. Full story behind it by following various links.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor Mckwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:42 PM

As I previously said, I was guessing about the distance to Scotland and Ireland. It was very late and I grabbed some very rough figures from my tired mind but surely you get the point I was making? Furthermore, I was sort of right on the Ireland guess, It's just that I was way off on the Scotland guess, which I should have really got as I was born there.

I'd just like to point out to some people, that unlike myself, Mr MacColl was born in Salford, not Scotland. Although he was a Celt, being from Scottish stock. Also, did he write 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' of Roberta Flack fame?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:09 PM

Yes, he did. Your question suggests that you're new to all this, so it might be helpful to establish what you mean by 'Celt'; the term is much misused and misunderstood. Are all people born in Scotland, or descended from people who were born in Scotland, 'Celts', in your opinion? Are people born a few yards across the border 'Celts' too, or are they something else? The term is meaningless except linguistically and archaeologically, so it really is best not to use it except in those contexts. It only leads to arguments.

MacColl, né Miller, came from a Scottish background, but there's nothing particularly Scottish about the style he used for this song, or for many of his others. The Scottish side of his heritage is something that he didn't really begin to exploit until later in life.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor McKwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:33 PM

One last point I'd like to make in terms of MacColl and his music, into which I believe I may have a small amount of insight.

Like myself, he was a Scot(a celt) brought up in Salford and like myself from the beginning his home life will have been full of the life of Scotland. From the language used, the music listened to, the cultural references, the stories told and re-told, The Scottish Celtic upbringing is vastly different to the Anglo-Saxon upbringing of most of my friends(weather they be Of A/S stock or 2nd/3rd generation Irish or Scots or Caribbean). I'm sure this stuck with MacColl for the rest of his life, as it has with me.

This can be seen in the structure of some of his songs ' The Manchester Rambler ' for example, sounds indicative of Lancastrian folk music, Five Penny Piece could and I'm sure have sung this. Nevertheless, ' Dirty Old Town ' In it's structure and melody is a Celtic folk song. I was brought up with a hundred songs that have the same feel to them as this and I'm sure he must have been. Therefore, Although the song is about Salford, It is a Celtic folk song, written by a Celt. I Thank You.

It's late again and I'm rambling, but you get the idea!

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Gregor McKwar
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:38 PM

Only a Anglo Or a Bloody Anglo-Jock could have made that statement about the use of the word ' Celtic '
You do know that we all hate your kind and we are getting Independence no matter what you say. I won't waste my time with this subject anymore.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:59 PM

I'm takin' a wild guess here...

Blind River.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:05 AM

That's dreadfully aggressively put, Gregor. the point Malcolm made was a genuine historical and ethnographic one- Scotland is a land of mixed origins, and not purely 'Celtic'. The Lothians were Anglo-Saxon overlying Brythonic, the southern lowlands of the West were the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which crossed what is now the border to include what is now Cumbria. The Western Isles and Galloway were colonised by immigrants from Ireland in the Dark Ages. There was a large injection of Norse all around the coasts. And that's putting it simply.

Independence won't change any of that. And neither will "racially" abusing opponents as "Anglo-Jock". Or are you going to ethnically cleanse unacceptable elements after independence?

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:31 AM

and to further complicate issues the Celts were invaders anyway, just as the Romans after them and the Saxons after them. As far as I am aware the earliest known settlements around all three current countries of this Isle were Pictish. Just as the Romans pushed the Celts to the outlying regions, the Celts did so with the Picts. I am not sure what the Irish were originaly but of one thing I am sure. As Ireland seems to be the furthest north west that the Celtic people went from their home in the south east, probably in Africa, Ireland would have been one of the last nations that the Celts colonised.

Yes, btw, Ewan did write 'the first time'.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:35 AM

Oi watch it Dave, the Picts are not mentioned by history until the 3rd century AD, and it's now thought they were a coalition of Brythonic tribes. It's also unclear whether "Celtic" means physical people, adoption of a fashion, or a combination of both. DNA is helping a bit, but only if assumptions are made about the genetic makeup before presumed migrations,particularly as regards the Y chromosome haplogroups. And Ireland may well have been infuenced more by seaborne contacts from the south- Celtiberia- than from mainland Britain.

As said, it needs simplifying if you aren't to write a book about it.

Of course, one widely adopted simplification, especially in Ireland, Scotland, Liverpool and the Salford of my youth was Catlick or Proddydog.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Well I never - You learn summat new everyday:-)

I was always told that the earliest settlement around these 'ere parts was in Eccles - And that was bronze age and Pictish! Just shows what bollocks these 'ere pseudo historians tell the gullible public!

Thanks for putting the record straight, Paul. What about the other thing re picts - The peak district was a corruption of the pict district. More spherical objects?

Anyroads - I can tell you something that is true that you may not know about pre-history. Bronze age huts all had a groove in the doorway. It was speculated on for years - was it architectural, religious, cultural, what? When the bronze age village was re-created for TV some years ago they found that the chickens used to gather in doorways and create grooves. Not sure if this was the only reason but it makes you think dunnit?

:D

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:22 PM

I'm astonished that there is still doubt that a) 'Dirty Old Town' is Salford or that b) there is still a question as to whether he deserted. The answer to both questions is YES!
A Socialist / Communist for all his life, a great singer and interpreter of the traditional songs, a great song writer but not neccessarily a person I would have wanted as a friend.
Read the authorised (by Peggy Seeger) biography written by Ben Harker and published by Pluto Press (see Johann Von Schmutzig post), which appears to be a 'warts and all' story of his life and it confirms both 'questions'.
He avoided call-up for as long as he could and then when 'caught' he was too 'soft' to stand all that every other male of his age in the country had to experience, deserted and was hidden away by Littlewood and his friends in the their Theatre movement for the entire war.. He was arrested after the war and for some reason (unfathomable to my mind) the authorities let him go without pressing charges.
I had always suspected the desertion to be case and was sorely disapointed in the man to find it was true...

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:50 AM

We all used to be Lancashire but they came up with the idea of Greater Manchester…….

Sale was in Cheshire, as was Stockport.

According to Wikipedia, the areas south of the Mersey and Thame were in Cheshire, the Saddleworth area in Yorkshire and parts of the south-east in Derbyshire. Back before the Romans, Wigan to Stretford was settled by the Celtic Brigantes tribe with the Cornovii south of the Mersey. You don't have to be from Scotland or Ireland to claim Celtic origins.

DC

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:00 AM

This thread should have ended 4 years ago with one word SALFORD. It's now a totally pointless discussion.

eric

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 08 - 04:02 AM

Peak ain't from Pict- it's from the Pecsaetna, the Anglo- Saxon tribe (mentioned in the Tribal Hidage I think) that inhabited (hid in?) the Peak District, and probably were Saxons mixed with Brigantes. The Dark Ages is a funny bit of history, but no one has recorded Picts that far south except on working holiday (see under Hadrian's Wall).

And yes Doug, prior to the Romans everyone was Celtic, and no one called themselves Celts.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Stu
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:39 AM

"Because some English people forget that they live in Britian and that the union jack is the British flag and also 'God save the Queen/king' is the British national Anthem."

Well, not me (or the English half of me). A thousand years under the Norman Yoke is enough without adding the artifice of the British Empire to the burden of the working men and women of this country. So she isn't my Queen and I don't owe my allegiance to the Crown, its government or its crappy flag and national anthem.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Bousingo
Date: 09 May 08 - 12:53 PM

You're all a bunch of dinks. The song was written about La Puente, California. During the folk music revival in the early sixties MacColl had the displeasure to appear at a most disappointing venue: Johnnie's No Bone Restaurant. He was cheated out of his pay at the end of the night and the local police sent him on his way.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"This thread should have ended 4 years ago with one word SALFORD. It's now a totally pointless discussion."

Exactly!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ewans Da
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:40 PM

"One last thing, in terms of people thinking there is a Celtic link to the song, that is understandable as MacColl was a Celt and a vast amount of people in these old North West Of England Industrial Cities have Celtic roots as vast amounts of people from Scotland and Ireland flooded here during the industrial Revolution."

I see the Welsh get ignored ay? lol. I wouldn't use the term 'Celt' to describe the indigenous peoples of these Islands as they are not 'Celts' according to genetic research. It would seem they only adopted or incorporated 'Celtic' custom and culture.

I would agree that though 'Dirty Old Town' was written for Salford, it also describes many many places in the industrial North, or should I say the pre-Thatcher industrial North lol.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 08 - 05:10 PM

Who was 'ere before them cunning Celts then? I need to know these things!

And if this thread had ended 4 years ago, Charlotte, you would not have the opportunity to make a yet another smartarse comment.

Discussions are usualy interesting, often educational and very rarely pointless. Apart from to people who are not interested and would be better keeping away from them anyway?

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:50 PM

Pre-Celt not a lot was being written down, which makes it a bit hard to say. I think the Picts were pre-Celtic; what they spoke we don't know, but it may have been something like Basque.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:31 PM

My understanding is that the Northern Picts spoke a non-Indo-European language, and the southern Picts spoke a P-Celtic language closely related to Gallic. Anyway, I don't usually fill in the race bits of questionnaires as they don't have a box for Picto-Norse.

Did someone mention the Famous Eccles earlier? Wouldn't be out of place.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:20 AM

Aye - I mentioned Eccles. Famous for it's cakes, church and wakes. Also now part of Salford. Well, the town is, not the famous goon character...

:D

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:49 PM

They had that sort of rig in Master's which was however on Broad Street

Just found out, courtesy of Mum P, that the shop on Regent Road with the same 'rig' was Landes. So, Landes and BHS were the two stores I can remember. The Masters I remember was actualy off Oxford Road - Facing where the Ritz is in Manchester and under a railway arch. They had a pneumatic tube system for their 'cheques'. There could have been a Masters on Broad Street but we don't remember it. There was, however, a Manners on Chapel Street with overhead cables and all - Remembered by Step-dad Frank. We never got as far as Chapel Street because we always turned down Cross Lane before we got there!

Did you used to get the same 'clothing company cheques' as us Paul? Another one of the dirty old town losses I'm glad to say - The 'tick' man!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:10 AM

Could have been Manner's- it's a long time ago, but they definitely had a Broad Street branch. And we were far too Middle Class to use clothing czechs, which was why MY school uniform (middle of family) was always hanging in rags. Jimmy could have clinched it for the uninitiated by mentioning getting bridged on Trafford Road.

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:25 AM

:D That De La Salle upbringing again, eh Paul? Joys of Middle class-dom. Still -must have done you good coz you know more about picts that me:-)

Aye - Being 'bridged indeed. Again, we didn't get down as far as Trafford bridge because we turned off Broad Street to go down Cross Lane and then off Cross Lane to do Regent Road. Funny thing is I am currently working a stones throw from Trafford Bridge! They have built another bridge at the side of it which I am sure is a fixed structure so I don't thing Trafford Bridge will ever turn again.

I don't remember this either but my friend Dave E. reckons his grandad used to make money putting ashes and cinders down on the frozen cobbles near the cattle market so the horses wouldn't slip.

And who'd think we'd all be here today drinking Chateau de Chatelet...

:D

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST,Ewans Da
Date: 12 May 08 - 11:57 AM

There is genetic research which connects the 'Basques' and the indigenious Briton's/Welsh/Scots and Irish. But the connection is still being debated.

It would seem the debated connection has reached one conclusion. That conclusion is, the native Britons and the Basques are the original settlers or aboriginal inhabitants of Europe.

Britain and the Islands are not Celtic or Franco-Germanic (Anglo-Saxon), but Indigenous British/Scots/Welsh/Irish who adopted absorbed immigrant culture.

:0o

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:47 PM

Ooooh - Thanks Ewans Da. Funnily enough we were discussing the Basques at work today and someone else told me that they were not Celtic - Although they do apparantly have their own bagpipes. Something of an enigma apparantly. All I knew before was that you shouldn't put all your Basques in one exit...

I'll get my coat.

:D

Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:56 PM

freedom come all ye is about the speech by Harold McMillan had made in Westminster after visting South Africa, and it is an answer to his winds of changes speech which has nothing to with Scotland except it's written in Scots.