Two Bouzouki Setup Questions

Subject: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: TIA
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:53 PM

Thanks to some of you very helpful folks who steered me to books, websites, etc., I've made a good start with a new bouzouki.

I have two setup questions though...

1)
One book teaches in GDAD, Mel Bay's is in GDAE. As a tenor banjo player, GDAE would come very quickly to me (with some serious finger stretching!), but am I missing out on some special bouzouki capabilities if I do this? It almost feels like cheating, but is it really?

2)
I have a Trinity College, and it came strung in octaves on the lower strings. Is this the "traditional" (I say this with trepidation of course) way? I have been listening to a lot of players (by CD unfortunately), and it sounds like most are strung in unison.

Everybody's last bit of advice was so good, I'm back for more.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM

It all comes down to personal choice really. I play GDAD double (unison) strung, but then I play to accompany singing and tunes, mainly. GDAD gives some really easy but effective chord patterns, but you are playing in an open D (sort of) tuning, and you need a capo to be as effective in (most) other keys. I don't play a lot of tunes on bouzouki so I'm not the guy to tell you much about that side of bouzouki.

It might help if you told us what you are hoping to do with the bouzouki and then people can give more structured advice. But for accompanying stuff - well, I'm very happy with my setup.

In the meantime, my advice is - play ofetn and experiment!

Good luck, Les

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: TIA
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:48 PM

Thanks LfH.
More details. I play mostly with a three-person group. Oldest daughter on flute or guitar, middle daughter on violin or mandolin. I play tenor banjo, and guitar, and am now adding bouzouki. Violin, mandolin or flute (or me on banjo) usually have the melody (although we double it a lot), so I think I'll be doing mostly accompaniment, but for some ballad-y type stuff where banjo just doesn't sound right, we have found that bouzouki actually sounds pretty good on lead (I just pretend it's a giraffe-like banjo). No singing accompaniment - we're all jackass-voiced. Bottom line - it'll probably be a mixture tilted towards accomp., but hell, I don't know enough to say for sure -- we are really just hacks who enjoy it, and get the occasional gig in very understanding settings.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 05:34 PM

The Bouzouki in its Greek form (where it originated) is tuned as the top four courses of a 12-string guitar - DGBE - with octaves on the D and G courses.

Whilst this makes it instantly accessible for a guitarist, I find it of little practical use - you might just as well use a 12-string, because it sounds better!

Some people use cittern-style tunings such as DADA, DGDG or CGCG, which have a lot of advantages in the 'full' sounding chords you can play along with a melody, but you also need a capo to be effective in different keys as suggested above. These tunings use unison tuned course rather than the Greek octaves.

Ain't life complicated?!

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 06:07 PM

I use the unison tuning GDAD for playing melody and double stop and chordal accompanyment in D and G and some modal stuff on Octave Mandolin. I use a capo for most other keys.
I have never owned a bouzouki, but did borrow one for a while and played chords with it tuned in banjo tuning, DGBD, with octave strings on the two lower courses. On this instrument I used mostly closed chords and it worked well. I found the scale too long for melody playing.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 06:27 PM

I play GDAD unison strung. Unison strung is better for tunes than octave because the tune's pitch gets confused when going on to the lower courses. I also prefer it for accompaniment as it gives a fuller sound. GDAD is great for playing in the folk friendly keys of D and G. With this tuning I find that I can play chords and suggestions of the melody simultaneously or chords with linking note comprising the melody. I think GDAD is popular with Irish bouzouki players and is the tuning of choice for James Fagan.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:54 AM

GDAE unison strung, because I'm not inclined to change my mandolin/tenor banjo/fiddle (ie, fifths) fingering instincts. I don't personally like octave strings on the zouk because they trespass a bit on the range of higher instruments, especially anything carrying the melody, and as others have said, a 12 string can do that job too (& I've a decent 12).

If you change from one stringing to another, the nut slots will need changing, and maybe a general set-up will be required. Any instrument with octave courses needs some consideration for the fact that there will often be different strings in a chord at the same pitch, and due to intonation variables, maybe not closely tuned. Some like that sound, others not.

To work on that stretch issue, capo up for a while, but slowly start capoing down until the open position stretch feels okay.

In a perfect world, get multiple zouks and have every option available.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Grab
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:56 AM

Octave-strung for the lower strings is standard for folk, but then it's more usually used like that for chords.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: clueless don
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:00 AM

In my experience, GDAE is the tuning to use if you want to play the tunes (i.e. the melody), GDAD if you are going to play accompaniment. To a great extent, GDAD is for the bouzouki player what DADGAD is for the guitarist.

My bouzouki teacher used to play tuned GDAD, and would capo at the seventh fret when he wanted to play melody. This never worked well for me since I found the frets to be too close together up there on the neck to play effectively, but my teacher was (and is) a much more skilled player than I. For mandolin players, the close frets would probably feel just fine.

I never had much luck using a capo "on the fly", so I played all keys without a capo. Key of G worked almost as well as D, though key of A was rather limited for me. This was Irish dance music, so I didn't have to play in "exotic" keys.

Don

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:15 PM

Something else to consider (implied by Mooh) with octave strung is that the intonation on the smaller string of the pair might begin to sound wrong as you go higher up the neck.

Ultimately, it depends on what sound you like. Again, as Mooh says, the setup is different for octave and unison. Converting octave strung to unison is not too difficult, going the other way is more radical.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: TIA
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 09:19 PM

Thanks to all. After a few weeks of experimenting, I have settled on unison strings in GDAE. It's a big reach for some semi-melody playing, but I have found that the stretching exercise of playing the bouzouki has improved my tenor banjo playing. Now I am extremely mediocre!

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:04 AM

I used to tune GDAE but found melody playing too much of a stretch for my stubby fingers, and got my zook for accompanying anyway, and after seeing Andy Irvine live I retuned to GDAD. I play Irish traditonal mainly but find myself playing some English stuff on it too, and the D give a nice drone underneath the bass notes.

Unison strings are better for these bass runs, and work very effectively in GDAD tuning.

Sometimes though, I'd just love to pick out the odd melody. Does putting the capo the 7th fret turn a GDAD zook into a GDAE mandolin?

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: oggie
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:48 AM

I have small fingers and usually play mandolin but when I take the 'zouk out of hibernation I use GDAE for chord work and capo at 7 for tunes, effectively creating a DAEB mando and shifting tunes down a string. It's a cheat really but useful on occassions.

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 06:40 AM

As Stigweard says, you get lots of beautiful drones and suspended chord sounds, especially when playing in the keys of D and G, that are just so right for folk music with the top courses tuned to D and that will be missed entirely by using GDAE. I would suggest if you want the more resonant sound of a bouzouki but the ease of playing tunes, then an octave mandola would be a better choice. The recent workshop I attended, we mixed tunes and accompaniment without any problem. The stretch or having to think about that D course could be a problem, but it's like all things, once you get used to it, you stop thinking and just do it.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:44 AM

Yeah, GDAE is not a bouzouki tuning. It just becomes an octave mandolin at that point. GDAD or ADAD give the sound you want.

Mick

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:44 AM

Proper set-up is at 20 yards with the instrument upright and the gun loaded with number 3 shot through a full choke barrel. Final set-up is best done with a splash of gasoline and a match.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:58 AM

There is no correct or incorrect tuning for a bouzouki used in Irish Folk music.

One tuning that has not been mentioned is ADAE. I learned this tuning from Joe Foley and find it a good compromise for both playing tunes and to acompany songs.

Joe strung my Bouzouki with matching pairs of strings.

Barry

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

That's absolutely true. For any instrument that you can alter the tuning of, use what works and sounds best for you. The discovery of CGCGCD for my guitar (similar to ADAD as mentioned above for bouzouki by Big Mick) has been a liberating experience for me. I'll give ADAE a try sometime, but when I get my new bouzouki, I might use FCGC (GDAD down a tone) with some heavier strings and, inevitably, a capo!

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM

Is this the "traditional" (I say this with trepidation of course) way?

The thing is, the Irish Bouzouki is not a traditional instrument. That's not a criticism, it's a great instrument and it works spelndidly playing traditional music. But a question like "is this the traditional way" is meaningless.

I like ADAD myself.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:43 PM

Hence the trepidation. At what point does an instrument become "traditional". As an example, the banjo is decidedly not of Irish, nor American origin. So it is probably not a traditional Irish instrument to some. But is anyone going to argue that it is not traditional American? I bet some would! The only truly traditional instrument might be a log...or perhaps a rock.

Subject: RE: Two Bouzouki Setup Questions
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:37 PM

You might want to run over to the YouTube perma thread and go to my post on the Bothy Band to see an excellent video of Donal Lunny, all the way back in 1976, accompanying Triona on a song. Donal should be considered one of the founding fathers of this instrument in Irish music.

Mick