BS: The flaw in Christian Theology

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:41 AM

M. Ted - no offense meant to Joe or to you. I was commenting on Joe's statement, "Many people have died opposing injustice, opposing what's wrong with this world..."

I can definitely see statements like this being used by any terrorist group. Isn't that what the so-called jihad is all about?

Don't get me wrong, that is exactly why I like Jesus. He was willing to die for his cause. I'm just saying that Christians do not have exclusive rights to that train of thought.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:21 AM

There are a couple of ways of dying for what you believe in. According to the story, Jesus told people to love one another and he protested against injustice. For this, he was arrested on Thursday evening, had about the speediest trial in history, was convicted of being "troublemaker," and was led to execution around noon on Friday. I don't think that's quite the same as wrapping explosives around your body and blowing yourself up on a crowded bus or hijacking a commercial airplane and flying it into a building.

Jesus harmed no one. He killed no one. Quite the contrary, if the story of Lazarus is indeed true.

Same sort of thing happened to Gandhi. Martin Luther King. Some other folks. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:23 AM

Diana, I think you're reading something that isn't there. Certainly, there are those who give their lives (or take the lives of others) for causes that are not just. And of course I don't have much good to say for them.

On the other hand, many people die as victims of injustice, or because of their opposition to injustice. I think that at the very least, the world owes them honor and gratitude.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:13 PM

Joe:

Thanks for as thoughtful and insightful description, much appreciated. Even if this IS an Internet forum!:)


A

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

"On the other hand, many people die as victims of injustice, or because of their opposition to injustice. I think that at the very least, the world owes them honor and gratitude."

Thanks Joe. You said that well.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:39 PM

For me, the point of the death of Jesus is...

#1 That in truth there IS no death. (That "death" is not the end. That a man is not his body.)

#2 That anything is forgivable when you fully realize #1 at the deepest level.

#3 That we would do well to follow his example, realize that there is no death, and forgive both ourselves and others for whatever painful things have occurred in the process of living Life here as we know it.

For me, Jesus is not to be worshipped...he is to be emulated in one's own outward conduct and one's own inner self, to the best of one's ability. He (among others) was the living demonstration of the Way, the Truth, and the Life, also called the Tao and various other words in other cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:45 PM

Once again, Little Hawk scores a bingo! Well said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: number 6
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:57 PM

Bravo Little Wing!!

So very well said .... "Jesus is not to be worshipped, he is to be emulated..."

To be a true Christian, is to forgive. That is very difficult, but one must strive for that. Jesus was crucified between 2 convicts. He forgave them.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: number 6
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:58 PM

Oooops ... Little Hawk .... my apologies

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 04:30 PM

No problem. Little Wing is a lovely name, and the title of a beautiful song by Jimmie Hendrix too.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,wdyat12
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 04:42 PM

Creation theories vary from culture to culture. I particularly like the American Native belief of the turtle.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: annamill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:30 PM

Little Hawk,

I may be an atheist, without the belief in a higher power, but I am a believer in the teachings of Christ and totally agree with your statement "Jesus is not to be worshipped, he is to be emulated...".

I do believe he lived and was a great teacher to be emulated. I do try to include many of his ideas and concepts, as we know them, in living my life.

We have to take care of each other.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:34 PM

Jesus was executed because he was becoming troublsome to the ruling elite of his day.
Then, as now,every action by man has to do with power.
In Christs day, if someone upset the authorities...Orthodox jews in his case,they convened a "kangaroo court" and executed them.
Nowadays they usually stop at character assasination on people who protest too much or rock the system.

The higher authority ,(the Romans) were quite happy to keep the religious /political status quo ,so didn't intervene in what they saw as a minor squabble.

The supporters of Christ expected some major event to take place, in which the forces of authority would be crushed and the "Messiah" triumph.

When of course this didn't happen, the Christians...just like the Democrats, tried to put the best possible spin on it.
This spin involved the promise of "everlasting life" if one put aside reason and swallowed the fable....an excellent tactic given mans egotistical desire to evade a natural death.

Its all very simple really...   Just read the bloody book!!

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

That's true as far as it goes, Ake, it just doesn't go far enough.

What interests me about Jesus is not why he was condemned (which, as you suggest, is obvious)...no, what interests me about him is what he taught and demonstrated to people.

The Christians later made up all kinds of bizarre and convenient stuff in order to turn him into an idol, and they borrowed a whole bunch of old ideas from previous religions too...like the notion of a "virgin birth", for one. They did that because they thought it would work well to promote the new religion in the culture of that time, and it certainly did!

But I am not much interested in religion. I'm interested in ethics, and in the development of consciousness. Jesus taught and demonstrated a lot about that. The Christian churches have been trying their best to water down and subvert those teachings ever since, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

The difference between Moyers and Limbaugh is that Moyers is a real journalist and not a propagandist. All anyone has to do is catch past episodes of his show "Now" to see that. He has had many guests on his show such as Grover Norquist that disagree with him but Moyers has managed to keep an open mind and a constructive flow of dialogue allowing for those that disagree with him uninhibited expression of their views. Limbaugh has never done that. He suppresses everyone who disagrees with him by out-shouting them.

The King James version of the Bible was written to appease the differing factions and sects of it's time. The scribes chose their language in translating from Aramaic and Greek carefully so as not to offend and retain the status quo. The Bible has always been used as an attempt to control the laity although it's original purpose may or may not have been for that reason.

It has and is being used as a propaganda tool for political purposes and maybe for religious ones as well.

This doesn't invalidate its lessons if taken as metaphors rather than facts.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

I agree completely LH.
I see Christ as philosopher, far ahead of his time, whos ideas were used in a way which he never intended.

These ideas have made a lot of people very rich ,down through the centuries ; and helped in the massacre of many innocents.

The way forward? Forget organised religion, all the spirituality we need is right here on this planet.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM

Amen, bruthah! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:08 PM

The flaw in Christian theology is dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:14 PM

Yeah. That's the flaw in most theology. It's petrified thinking, usually based on a holy book and a set of hallowed traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM

Dianavan, I think maybe your anti-dogma statement is too dogmatic itself. I think I'd say, "The flaw in Christian theology is dogma, taken dogmatically."

Within any system of thought, you have to have some basic principles that people agree on, otherwise there's no basis for sharing ideas. Most organizations have some principles, myths, writings, or stories they hold in common. Christians have the Old and New Testaments and the Creed as their founding documents, and they've served well for nearly two millennia. These basic documents have been augmented by the teachings of wise people through the ages, and some of these teachings have been officially adopted by the institutional churches because they have a certain universality - these officially adopted teachings are dogma, and they deserve a level of respect from the members of the denominations that hold them.

Where you get into trouble is when you accept such teachings without question; or when you view the teachings from a very rigid perspective, whether that perspective be positive or negative. Many Mudcatters seem to be very dogmatic in their condemnations of ideas and belief systems and teachings that they know little about. If a group has held a teaching sacred over a number of centuries, most likely there's some wisdom to it. I wish Mudcatters could be a bit more open to considering ideas, and a bit slower to condemn - but I suppose Mudcatters are a reflection of the world and its prejudices. Heck, maybe if George Bush would be open to the writings of Rumi and Hafiz, the world wouldn't be in such trouble today. Maybe it wouldn't hurt a few Mudcatters to read the Sermon on the Mount with an open mind...

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 04:28 PM

The Sermon on the Mount is a marvelous example of spiritual teachings, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM

Joe - I agree with what you say except this part, "If a group has held a teaching sacred over a number of centuries, most likely there's some wisdom to it."

Not necessarity so. Who defines what is sacred? Is it wisdom that defines what is sacred or is it dogma?

At least scientists have the grace to say something is true only until it is proven otherwise.

I have no problem with what you choose to believe but please do not condescend to tell me that they are sacred or wise. I do not adhere to a set of beliefs dictated by a group of men that isolate themselves from the rest of the world, shrouding themselves in the cloak of Christianity.

If you want to give them more power, go right ahead. Its your choice. Just remember that you are one of the people that give them the power to dictate to women how their bodies should be used, the power to commit sexual abuse of children, the power to help conquer Native people and the power to convince common people that they are sinners.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 10:23 PM

Actually, Dianavan, I am one of the people who fights against those who wish to dictate to women and abuse children and conquer aboriginal people. Not all Christians, and not all Christian men do those awful things. In fact, Christians like that are and were a minority and don't really fit the usual definitions of "Christian." The things you describe are aberrations - they are not and never have been central aspects of Christian thinking. I am appalled by the fact that they certainly did exist within Christian churches - but I certainly have never approved of them, and a majority of modern-day Christians do not approve.

And yes, if a group has held something sacred, then it is sacred to them and should be respected as such - within reason. I respect Islam and Buddhism and Native American beliefs - why shouldn't they respect mine? As for who decides whether something is sacred - much of what decides is time. Beliefs that are truly sacred are not imposed. They are held by a people for their history, and generally deemed to be sacred. And yes, I think that many of those beliefs have the profound wisdom that comes from generations of reflection.

To compare on a smaller scale, we might look at how we value our ancestors, and how they are sacred to us. I'm sure my grandparents had faults, but I hold them sacred in my memory because of who they were to me when I was a child. To me, they were wise; and to me, they are sacred.

I do have a question about people of European ancestry who espouse Eastern or Native American or Sufi Islamic beliefs. I find wisdom and sacredness in all of those belief systems and traditions, and I look on those beliefs with awe and respect, and I try hard to learn from them - but I know that I will always be an outsider, that those beliefs and practices can never truly be part of me because they are not who I am. If I were to try to expouse those practices, I would forever be playing a masquerade, playing the wannabe eastern mystic, or whatever.

So, yeah, I don't think we should be so quick to condemn, to be so quick to see others as demons. There have been many wise people in this world, now and in the past, from all cultures and belief systems - and we need to learn from all of them while remaining true to ourselves and who we are. I'm a Catholic Christian, but I'm open to the beliefs and traditions of all. How about you?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 11:08 PM

If you think it is sacred and wise, Joe, it is sacred and wise to you. I hope you understand that my concerns and questions are not aimed at you or any other individual but are oferred as an explanation as to why I am not Christian.

From a non-Christian perspective, I would like to say that it is not easy growing up in a country where it is assumed that you are Christian. When people find out that you are not baptized or that you don't believe what they hold sacred, they make you feel like a heathen. Quite frankly, the arrogantly, self-righteous have become the norm in America and it is easy to see how Bush exploited that attitude. Anytime a group of people believe they have God on their side, you can be sure someone is being persecuted.

Anyway, Joe, whether or not someone is Christian, makes no difference to me. It seems to make a difference to Christians, however. Beyond that, I am sure there is a whole lot of other stuff we can agree on.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 11:14 PM

dianavan, your post is an unfair generalization. You speak for whole groups of Christians as if they were monolithic. They are no more a monolith than any other group. You make the point that you feel judged by us, then you turn around and judge us.

In the circles I run in, you wouldn't be made to feel anything such as you have described. I wonder how much of these feelings are of your own making based on an encounter with a twit?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:04 AM

Mick - As an adult I do not encounter what I encountered as a child because as a child I was defenseless. As an adult I can defend myself. Its taken a lifetime to arrive at my personal beliefs, it wasn't handed to me on a silver platter or shoved down my throat. I found Jesus as a friend not someone to be worshipped.

Christians have a history. Don't forget that. Christians have to bear the burden of attrocities committed in the name of Christ. It isn't quite as easy as sitting back and saying, 'It wasn't me, it was those other Christians!' Christians must hold other Christians to account before any positive change will happen.

It is Christian theology we are discussing. Not Christian individuals. The theology holds that you are a born sinner until you are baptised. I disagree completely. I can point out many flaws in Christian theology (which is the title of this thread) but many of you have been brainwashed since birth and immediately go on the defensive. I understand that Christians are individuals but when talking about theology, we are talking about a group of people who share a common belief system, not individuals.

Like I said before - If we stay away from the topic of religion, we would probably get along fine but don't ever try to tell me that Christianity is humble and innocent or that Christian theology is anything but another way to manipulate the masses.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:40 AM

In another thread, Don Firth linked to this piece written by a Congregationalist (UCC) minister. Here's a quote:

I'm tired of people thinking that because I'm a Christian, I must be a supporter of President Bush, or that because I favor civil rights and gay rights I must not be a person of faith. I'm tired of people saying that I can't support the troops but oppose the war ...

I've never had a fundamentalist thought in my life. Why do people keep insisting on lumping me with those damn fundamentalists? There are many, many Christians who are open-minded people who seek to learn for all traditions and schools of thought. It's an outright insult to class us progressives with the Fundamentalists; just as it's insulting for non-Americans to condemn
me, a life-long Democrat, for the actions of George Bush.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Peg
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 12:03 AM

Interesting thread.

I really liked the part where people were actually making a serious effort to elucidate the differences between Bill Moyers and Rush Limbaugh.


Rather like comparing apples, and ugli fruit.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 12:42 AM

Some wonderful, kind and thoughtful contributions to this thread, from all sides, and all much appreciated.

Joe, do you think there is a living entity or spiritual being who answers to the name Jesus, was the owner of the body crucified on Calvary, was the incarnate son of the Creator if the Universe, and who reaches into the affairs of men and women, answering prayers, sometimes appearing in visions and drafting an occasional miracle?

I am not trying to be arrogant, but I am curious about the nature of the doctrine which I have never quite come to terms with. Thanks.


Amos

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:59 AM

Hmmm. Fair question, Amos. I shy away from dogmas and definitions, and keep matters of faith to bare basics and lots of watching and pondering. The stories of Scripture, the life of Jesus, the faith experiences of people from many different ages and creeds and cultures - all of these have deep meaning to me - but more as poetry, rather than as a rule book or a behind-the-scenes exposé of the Lives of the Divine and Omnipotent. If you'll forgive me for getting flowery, it's poetry that gives music to the dance of life.

You talk of a God "who reaches into the affairs of men and women, answering prayers, sometimes appearing in visions and drafting an occasional miracle." I'm not so sure of all that; but I'm not ready to deny it, either. I think more of a God who is active in the essence of the universe, not one who drops in from time to time to intervene. The First Letter of John says God is Love. I Corinthians 13 has a poetic statement on love that ties beautifully with the passage from John and gives it deeper meaning. But while I think that is wonderful, I think the essence of God goes beyond even that, beyond all the ideals and dreams and good words you can imagine. And when all that wonderful God-stuff becomes incarnate, that's where Jesus fits in - somehow.

All the theology and doctrine and tradition and liturgy and sacred writings and moral codes and all that are important - if they are put in their proper place and not made into gods unto themselves. To experience the presence of the divine that surrounds us, we have to let go of everything, especially our preconceptions, and just watch and listen and ponder.

Like I've said, words don't work in all this very well - they tend to limit God to our notions, to build a God in our image and likeness. But yeah, there's a God I can touch, who touches me back. The best I can describe the experience of God is something most of us have known - the "click" that happens when we're singing together and we reach a point where we lock together and sing in harmony as one. I think there's a taste of the divine in that experience. There's something beyond all of us when we reach that point - and we wish it could go on forever.

So, that's my attempt to say what I feel about it. Others deny it or haven't experienced it, or define it in other terms - but that's what it is to me. It all sounds pretty foggy when I try to put it into words - but it works for me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:55 AM

You didn't ask me, Amos, but ...

yes.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM

If one changes what dianavan says just a bit, what is our take on it?

"Man has a history. Don't forget that. Men have to bear the burden of attrocities committed in the name of their ruler. It isn't quite as easy as sitting back and saying, 'It wasn't me, it was those other men!' Men must hold other men to account before any positive change will happen."

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:31 PM

I think that Ebbie was referring to mankind, without regard to gender - or was it just us male-men you were talking about, Ebbie?

Or you could say, "Humankind has a history. Don't forget that. We all have to bear the burden of atrocities committed in the name of our rulers. It isn't quite as easy as sitting back and saying, 'It wasn't me, it was those other people!' People must hold other people to account before any positive change will happen."

Or, taken to a ridiculous extreme: "And my dog has to take responsibility for all the misdeeds done by his master..."

I suppose you could also say that pagans should be responsible for previous pagans who did human sacrifice, and atheists should be responsible for the actions of those godless Communists.

But yet, it's true. To the extent that we take pride in being part of a community or group or family, we must also take reponsibility for the misdeeds of that group and do what we can to correct our group's misdeeds. We all need to take responsibility for what's wrong with the world, because we're all interconnected. It's not just Christians who share common bonds and common responsibilities - we're all in a tightly interwoven web.

But leave my dog off the hook, willya? He's really a very nice dog. The only bad thing he ever did was when he was a pup, stealing 14 shoes from the doorsteps of various neighbors. He never brought a mate for any of the shoes, and we never found where the shoes came from. He's an old dog now, and we have new puppies to make mischief.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM

Joe...I find it very hard to make sense of your posts.

What you seem to be saying is that you dont take any of the "supernatural" side of religion seriously.but that Christians are bonded together by a common faith.
It seem that it is the bonding which is important rather than the message, which could be any message no matter how bizarre.

So if you dont believe the magic, what makes Christianity any different from a folk "community",or any other type of club..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:10 PM

Yes, I was, JoeO. I had written 'Man' but it got unwieldy so I changed it.

There's a thought I like, in regard to child raising: If I have to take blame for some failings of my child, I also get to take credit for some of his/her successes.

But my point remains. If "man" has and is wreaking havoc on our planet, for instance, it is up to man to take responsibility for it and to remedy it. If "man" is on a power trip, because s/he/it is the only entity that has that power, it is up to mankind to recognize the damage it has caused.

The religion(s) that mankind adheres to is only one of the methods and rationales used by man to harm. But the religion(s) that man adheres to is also one of the methods and rationales used to do good. Wisdom consists of knowing the difference.

Don't mind me. I've already said more than I know.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

Joe:

Thanks for a kind, sensitive and thoughtful answer.

I am intrigued about your perspective on the nature of God, as I am sympathetic to it myself; but my question about Jesus, who seems to be addressed by most Christians as a separate enittiy, you did not answer, and I assume this is because you do not want to drift into dogma. I applaud this. I would be interested if you wish to answer, though.

Jim: thanks for also answering. Do you think His spiritual nature, which clearly transcends the life cycle of his body, is also shared by human 'souls', if I am using the word correctly?

A

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:19 PM

Assigning collective responsibility to all members of a particular group because of the actions of a some of it's members, especially if other members of the group disapprove of those actions, is the foundation of prejudice and bigotry.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:47 PM

Hi, Ake -

Christianity is founded on a rich and wonderful tradition, amplified by the wisdom of many generations of believers and thinkers. If you look around you can find believers for whom the faith really makes a difference - you can see their wisdom and serenity - and humility. Too often, we look to the leaders of religious groups and define faith by the practices of the Ruling Class of Religion - but faith is often far away from the Ruling Class. The title of this thread is misleading, because it implies that there are flaws in Christian theology. Theology is an exploration, and it goes up many dead-end paths - but that is the process of theology, exploration, not answers. The flaw occur when the Ruling Class decides to take a theological exploration and codify it as Truth, defining it isn terms that are most often oversimplified and open to misunderstanding. Any time you try to put matters of faith into words, it gets really complicated - and then people try to simplify all that stuff and miss all the nuances.

Most people, including most people who call themselves religious, haven't gotten to that point yet. Some are honestly seeking, but many have found or constructed a plateau they find comfortable, and they stop looking. Oftentimes, instead of finding God, they tie themselves to a hodgepodge of half-understood religious verbiage and empty slogans. Then they use all their energy to try to prove themselves right and others wrong.

Faith is a relationship with God, not a pledge to buy into a bunch of words. Faith is profoundly simple the interaction between the human and the divine. It certainly is supernatural, and it is beyond the power of words to adequately describe it. We don't acquire faith by listening to words - we get it by seeing people of faith, and how their faith made sense to them. For me, it was my grandmother - the kindest person I have even known. God was part of every moment of her life, but she didn't make a big deal of it. It just made sense to her. She gave me a start, but many others have carried me along the way.

The beauty of the Scriptures is that they show how a people lived a life of faith. You see it in individuals in Scripture, and you see it in the community of those who called themselves the People of God. One most important thing to see is that their path was crooked - even for Jesus. There were no slogans and doctrines and easy answers. They lived life as a journey, as we all do - but people of faith make that journey is a (sometimes uneasy) relationship with God.

The doctrines and moral codes and traditions are all necessary to help us understand and explore that journey - but we have to remember that the faith lies in the relationship with God and all of God's creation. All that other stuff is only words. Useful words - but still only words. I have to say that in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures and in many other sacred writings, the words have taken on a life of their own because they have been pondered for generations - so yeah, those words are more than mere words. For me, the words of Peter in Acts, the four Gospels, and the struggling and conflicting thinking of Paul have special meaning.

So, yeah, if you want faith, watch for people of faith. You'll find people of faith in all creeds - pagan, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, atheist. You'll find they're all on a journey of exploration, and they won't have ready answers for you. But if you watch how they make their journey, you'll start to understand.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:17 PM

Amos -
I think that if people want to understand Jesus, they need to read the four Gospels. Each one should be read in its entirety, from beginning to end, without stopping - and it should be read as a story, not as some sort of defensive document that's meant to prove something. They need to be read without preconceptions - just as a story to be enjoyed. When they're read that way, a person comes through - a person, Jesus, who was somehow able to make sense of a journey of life in a constant, intimate relationship with God.

I'd suggest that Luke or Matthew might be the best story to read first, and John should be last because it is a reflection on the meaning of Christ. Probably, it would be good to read Acts before John, to see how early believers responded to their reflection on the life of Jesus. Peter's statements in the first half of Acts are particularly powerful.

Now, there are lots of basic beliefs that I hold, but they're not things that was I want to defend or to preach or to force upon an unreceptive audience. I think that the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures are full of wisdom for all - believers or not - just as I seek to explore and understand the wisdom and sacred writings of creeds that are not my own. For me, the Hebrew and Christian writings and traditions have special meaning, and I do teach and preach to those who share that meaning. I do believe in the power and love of God, and I do believe that Jesus was and is somehow divine - but don't ask me to explain or defend that to somebody who doesn't share that belief (and don't expect me to condemn or refute or to fail to respect anybody who doesn't share that belief). I also believe that when Christians receive communion, they somehow receive Jesus in a particularly intimate way - but please don't ask me to explain or defend that, or to think less of anybody who does not hold that belief.

Does any of that make sense? Faith is something I live, not something I preach. If the way I live makes sense to others, then maybe they'll explore what makes sense to me.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:42 PM

Thanks for taking the time to compose that post Joe, it proves you are sincere in your belief,but Im sorry it doesn't convince me.

Were all on a voyage of discovery, from the moment we're born till the day we die, whether we have a religious faith or not.

I too have been inspired by others, who have for the most part been atheist or agnostic.   Goodness is not confined to practicing Christians.

Without the magic, religious faith seems to me meaningless, and the magic is what more and more Christians are finding harder and harder to explain or justify.
I read in the papers not long ago, that alarge number of the clergy no longer believe in heaven, hell, the virgin birth,or even a supreme being.
If the leaders of a religion have difficulty justifying its basic beliefs, why should anyone else be convinced.

I can understand why some people might need such a faith, and maybe someday I may need it myself, but at this time it all seems to fly in the face of reason ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

Ake, perhaps the "basic beliefs" of a religion are not things like a geographic heaven or hell to which one goes in an afterlife, nor the gynecological and obstetric details of the conception and birth of Jesus, mor even the concept of a personified "father figure" as God. Perhaps, by calling these things into question, some religious people, including some members of the clergy, are peeling away another layer of the onion and getting closer to the real basic beliefs.

Theology, contrary to popular belief, does not provide a lot of pat answers. It asks questions.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:39 PM

Thanks, very much, for another thoughtful reply, Joe. I understand. Actually, I think you are a fine example of faith personified.


Amos

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: GUEST,winterbright
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

Why don't y'all just go syng a hymn!

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 05:29 PM

Don ..As far as I can see theology doesn't provide any answers,but asks a lot of questions about "religious" people, as opposed to "spiritual" people.

As I have said before, take away the magic and all you've got is a cosy little group of enthusiasts, which is very nice for them, but hardly earth-shattering. Surely its all just a way of making human existance seem more important that it really is.

I repeat,without humanity the world would be a much better healthier place.
Without the humble fungii the world would be a desert.

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:13 PM

Rather grim outlook, Ake.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

Joe is doing a good job of giving one man's answers to how it is for him, but the subject is usualy covered in several sub-subjects, such as Moral Theology, Ethical Theology, Christology, etc., within a framework of Systematic Theology that looks at the various facets of one's faith. HERE is an outline of what's involved in Systematic Theology. There are various texts that give one a more or less rigorous study.

A group Hardi and I lead takes another approach-- working with a group of people over time who study Scripture and other texts, and who then engage each week in refelcting together on what they have read, in light of culture, personal experience/position, and possible individual action. Without that process of theological reflection, whatever information is studied tends to swirl around one's pre-existing opinions. A little reflection with others who are honestly reflecting tends to let in a little more light.

Another discipline, APOLOGETICS, seeks to provide answers to the problems most folks have with Christianity. Another definition, from the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church:

1. to show that it is more reasonable to have a religion than not;
2. to show that Christianity can give a more rational account of itself than any other religion;
3. to show that it is more reasonable to profess orthodox Christianity than any other form of Christianity.


CLASSIC APOLOGISTS:

Aristides (Air-iss-TYE-dees)
2nd Century writings discovered in 1891        
Defended the existence and eternity of God

Justin, Martyr
c.100—c.165        
First to address categories of faith and reason; before his conversion, he sought for truth in pagan philosophies

Tatian (TAY-shun)
c.160        
Student of Justin, Martyr; a rigorist

Athenagoras (Ath-en-AG-or-ess)
2nd Century        
Influence on Marcus Aurelius; philosophical defense of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in the face of atheism (Socrates)

Theophilus (Thee-o-PHY-lus)
Late 2nd Century        
Bishop of Antioch, championed the doctrine of creation over pagan myths of creation; developed the concept of the Logos and emphasized the Trinity

Minucius Felix (Min-OO-shuss)
2nd or 3rd Century        
Author of Octavius, a discussion between Octavius and Caecilius (a pagan), in which pagan objections to Christianity are refuted. (from Africa)

Tertullian, Quintis Septimus (Ter-TOO-lee-un)
c.160-c.225        
Most prolific writer; tended to be a rigorist; attacks pagan superstition; argued against Marcionism; debated the practice of infant baptism

The collective challenge to classic apologetics was twofold:
(1) meet the pagan society and philosophy, and
(2) address Jewish objections to Christianity

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:44 PM

Don...I dont think its a grim outlook.
I feel if we as a species could finally get a grip on reality,and our true place in the zoo, maybe we could start to make ours and our childrens lives here on earth, happier and more meaningful.

I find the "crutch" of religion ,of any denomination a real distraction. All that energy could be used to more purpose,if we applied it to protecting the whole of our environment.

The grim outlook for humanity is continuous destruction of the planet for money,and wars between psuedo religious ideologies. Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:56 PM

I'm sorry susan ,but it just looks like a whole heap of excuses for why people need a psyshological soft landing.
There's nothing complicated or scary about life and death, we've been doing it for thousands of years. Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

Saw a cartoon the other day in the paper.
It was a line of Christians waiting to be admitted to heaven,in the corner was a little devil with a pitchfork tossing all the atheists and agnostics down a hole into a fiery hell.
One Christian in the line turns to another and says "Dont look so bloody smug now ...do they"?

Says it all ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The flaw in Christian Theology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:15 PM

Apologetics is very fashionable among conservative Roman Catholics. It has its place as a rational, systematic exploration of the concepts held by faith. Unfortunately, it often gets used as a tool that attempts to prove that one side is right and the other wrong.

A systematic approach to theology tends to be less defensive (and less aggressive). I have to say that I tended to fall asleep during my systematic theology classes. I earned the name "Total Turtle" because my head tended to bob during systematic theology classes. Studying the faith through scripture and ritual works for me. I can stay awake through that because there are stories involved, and stories never fail to fascinate me. The other approaches are far more abstract. I find abstraction very relaxing - so relaxing that I zonk out.

Ak, all I can say is for me, the stories and the people and the meaning are what's important - the magic is not. I think that God is intimately involved in the universe through the marvelous process called nature. I don't see God doing magic tricks. Maybe it happens, but not in my experience.

-Joe Offer-