BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy

Subject: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 04:45 PM

British politician has ruffled a few muslim feathers by stating that he would rather muslim women didn't wear their veils when talking to him. Anyone out there got any thoughts on the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:02 PM

It is very disconcerting not to be able to see the face of the person you're talking to. I also find it threatening in these days of terrorism, it could be a man under there, with a bomb strapped round his waist. Difficult one to call, but I'm on Jack Straw's side on this one. Not a thing I thought I'd ever say!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:09 PM

A gutsy statement, and I think one with merit for the reason Giok states. It also inserts the separation of church and state to a small degree by setting aside an essentially religous custom for the purposes of public discourse.

Of course it will ruffle Muslims, who (for some good and some not so good reasons) have shown over the last few years that they can be very touchy about their customs and beliefs, even when offence is accidental, imagined, or insignificant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:16 PM

Hyped up nonsense, being seized upon by people with agendas to bang-on about.

I think it's a question of good manners on both sides - the polite thing to do is make clear your own preferance, but to defer to the wishes of the other party. Which is evidently what Jack Straw does. Whjat's there to fuss about?

Wearing a full veil is purely a cultural thing, like wearing a kilt is, there is no kind of religious requirement involved.

But stuff about "it could be a man under there, with a bomb strapped round his waist" is nonsense too. Suicide bombers can after all come in either sex, and are probably a great deal more likely to wear western clothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

I'm well aware of the fact that there are female suicide bombers Kevin, but the majority are still male. Anyway if it were woman under the veil then it wouldn't BE a disguise would it?
I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with all this 'Right On' PC stuff, and as for the kilt, not many people going to ask me to take it off so's we can talk are they?
I don't fancy their chances of being picked out from a book of police mug shots either!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:50 PM

The point is, a full veil, like a kilt, is a cultural and traditional thing, not a religious observation. But unlike a kilt a full veil does get in the way of conversation and communication, and good manners would imply removing it in a conversational situation. However good manners by definition have to be a matter of free choice.

But bringing bombs into this is a nonsense and a red herring. Your actual suicide bomber is far more likely to be wearing a fleece or a donkey jacket than any kind f traditional Islamic gear. I'd feel pretty safe actually, standing next to a lady in a full veil in a queue.

And that's nothing to do with "'Right On' PC stuff", it seesm like common sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: skipy
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:57 PM

You can't wear a crash helmet in a bank or post office and expect to get served!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:06 PM

or even a hat in some bars.............

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:12 PM

You know what? I am uncomfortable speaking to people wearing clothes. I would prefer women to stand before me naked. After all, it is purely a cultural thing to wear clothes. Yep, I think that your logic is sterling.

This is not just about a custom. This violates a very important tenet of these women's faith. You are asking them to violate a deeply held belief. You don't have to believe, but a little respect for their beliefs is in order.

Giok, the bomb thing is reaching a bit, buddy. I would say Straw would be well within his rights, if he felt threatened, to ask that they be searched. But, like this silly stance, he will have to be prepared for the consequences.

I am not any kind of religious fundamentalist, but this seems to be stretching it to me. No damn wonder there is so much strife, when people are so intolerant of one anothers beliefs.

Am I missing something here?
Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM

It's an odd call though, certainly as to who makes the concession. If you were to go to see an imam at a mosque, would you respect his wishes and cover your head and remove your shoes, or would you stay as you are and expect him to accept that?
My own feeling is that Straw is making a valid point, but that his timing is crass and opportunistic (given the pending battle for the deputy leadership of the Labour party) and that the right-wing media is going to hijack the issue whatever Straw's personal wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:22 PM

I know exactly what I would do, Gervase. I would honor the custom of the mosque. I would cover my head, and remove my shoes. Seems to me that is the respectful thing to do.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

My reaction is "well said Jack Straw". There is too much timidly tip-toing around "sensitive" issues and pandering to the PC brigade. What he said was really just about good manners. He asked them to remove their veils, but did not insist.

A Quote from our local evening paper.

...Dr Daud Abdullah, of the British Council of Muslims said he understood. "This [the veil] does cause some discomfort to non-muslims" he said, adding that Muslim opinion was divided on the wearing of the veil.

Personally I find women walking round in black robes even without their faces covered up discomforting in a way that is not the case with women of Asian origin wearing their traditional dress. Similarly, I did not find it discomforting when I visited the Gulf many years ago. After all, it was part of their culture. It was well known in those days the wives and daughters of the wealthy were only too glad to discard their veils when they visited the West.

As far as I can observe this wearing of of a full veil seems largely confined to the Arab world and to one or two other countries. In many Islamic countries women do not seem to cover up, though they may well wear a shawl or scarf over their heads.

I remember some years ago, before all this blew up, an Egyptian woman who lives in Britain saying what has been said earlier that it is cultural. She added that the Qu'ran did not require women to be veiled, simply to "dress modestly".

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:05 PM

If he doesn't want to meet with women in veils, simple solution-- don't meet with them. A man trying to control what a woman shall do so that he can be more conmfortable wiht the discussion? Never mind the culture/religion angle-- who does he think he is?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:13 PM

He's not trying to control anyone. He's making a simple request pointing out that in out culture the face is a very important part of communication. As to showing respect, I don't feel that in Western culture one ever need respect someone else's choice. ie their religion, politics, social views etc. One had to respect those things that are not chosen, ie race, disability, injury, illness etc.
Choices can and should always be up for discussion and challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:41 PM

He was right. After all if we go to one of their counties we have to follow their customs and traditions. They can come to Britiain, live with their traditions, moan if the government of our country says something against them. No doubt some do gooder will call me racist, if their traditions are so important to them why leave their country and live in a country which is so wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Micca
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:45 PM

If you are at Rome live in the Roman style; if you are elsewhere live as they live elsewhere. [Lat., Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; Si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.]
Author: Saint Ambrose
Source: a version of the advice given to St. Augustine, quoted by Jeremy Taylor "Ductor Dubitantium", I, 1,

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:48 PM

Susan - he is an MP - people come to see him by their choice to discuss any problems they have that he might be able to assist them with in that capacity. It his his contention that to cover the whole face is a deterrent to the important communication that is essential if he is to offer that kind of help

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM

... people come to see him by their choice to discuss any problems they have that he might be able to assist them with in that capacity...

Then IMO it behooves him all the more to be gracious and open to people AS THEY ARE-- not to make them jump through any hoops to gain his attention and assistance.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 09:58 PM

There must be an election come up - or it's a calculated distraction from other uncomfortable issues currently facing the Labour Party.

Politicians lead - would anyone seriously have thought of the terrorist angle if he hadn't introduced it? Now people are looking at women in veils and thinking - terrorist. The same could be said of pregnant mothers - perhaps there should be a decree - all pregnant mothers to stay home, just in case thy're actually hiding a fake bomb in their belly.

Yet another reason to scapegoat women. single mothers, foreign women - all to be hated. I'm sick of it.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 10:35 PM

I'm with Jack Straw on this. The veils make a mockery of face-to-face communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 01:14 AM

Hang on Freda - I don't personally like many of Jack Straw's principles but HE never introduced the concept of "terrorist". He did however point out that this dress, which is NOT decreed by any religion, is a very extreme form of "seperation" both physically and socially. In fact many women in this country wear head covering and modest full length dress and our schools, unlike those in France, do not insist on banning such displays of "faith"
I have fought for equality for women and hope to continue to do so but I would say the same about men who adopted this mode of appearance.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:56 AM

it is well established that human communications are about 75% (pick your statistic) non-verbal. Some of that is intonation which is not carried well with a second accent. The rest is visual, and I have heard it said, particularly by deaf people, that beards get in the way of understanding.

I always quote the story of an engineer working for me. He (a Sikh) went to India to find a wife. When he started complaining that his wife had back trouble and the doctor was not very good I said he could change doctors easily under the National Health. He replied it was not that easy because they chose one that spoke Irdu, at which point I told him emphatically I had no sympathy if he would not let/insist his wife spoke reasonable English.

There are are always gains and losses in such obvious statements like the veil. It affirms someones religious fervour and shows that a multicultural society is tolerant. It also is a firm statement of segregation and has to be accepted as such. If we should not be so insensitive as to denegrate the veil we should not be told to draw a veil over the obvious downsides.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:10 AM

Whatever he may have said in other situations, this time Jack Straw said nothing whatever about terrorism: that's a misrepresentation of the issue.

As a non-Muslim male, I am not free to choose what I wear. It would raise no eyebrows if I went to the beach 'topless'. It would be at the border of acceptability if I went along the high street similarly undressed, and would be totally unacceptable if I turned up at a business meeting like that.
In summary, what I am permitted to wear depends on three factors:
a) What I wish to wear
b) What those I encounter find acceptable
c) The social context, which modifies both a and b.

That is true in all situations. We do not make exceptions as such for religious wear; it is simply that the social context means we are almost always prepared to accept religous wear. But even here, like the Sikh knife (kirpan), we can and do insist on changes in situations in which it is socially unacceptable.

The debate is being presented by one side as if 'a' is all that matters ("I can wear what I like") and by the other as if 'b' is the important factor ("People wearing the veil make me uncomfortable".) But that the debate is taking place is a good thing, since it is an exploration of all three factors.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:33 AM

(Actually from DMcG daughter)

The point i think that has to be brought to attention is the stress on the fact that Straw asked the women-not demanded. It is important i feel, in order to acheive a multicultural society,that discussion itself of subjects such as veils or indeed any other kind of religeious statement does not cause any kind of controversy and is accepted within a group, not a matter to causiously tip toe around.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:44 AM

What pisses me off is that the issue of whether wearing the veil is "right" or "wrong" is incidental - what is causing the controversy is that the man dared to venture a personal opinion, which seems not to be allowed these days.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,Wibbly Wobbly
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:24 AM

How would you react to being confronted by a youth in a hood and balaclava? He could claim it was cultural attire. Besides, why should I respect medieval superstitions?, especially those designed to subjugate women.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:27 AM

Freda, Jack Straw did not bring up terrorism, I did in the context of this discussion in order to provide a possible scenario, and I wish I hadn't becuase to certain people the word is as a red reg to a bull.
It is one of those buzz words which when they appear in an article seem to render some readers totally blind to all the other words on that page, a bit like Ireland, or Liberal you might say!
This common courtesy thing appears to be a one way street, and while we quite happily allow people religious freedom in our country, many of the countries that these people originate from, do not return the compliment. Mosques have sprung up all over the UK, while I see no churches being built in Iraq or Saudi Arabia for the use of the Christian minorities that live and work there.
Where are all the PC brigade regarding the treatment of women in some Arab counties? As a man said today, I will feel more equal when my girl friend can leave the topless beach, jump in her car, and drive to a bar for a glass of beer, in Saudi Arabia.
Yes it overstates the case, but it does point up the inequalities of tolerance on both sides.
In other words , 'Why does it always seem to be us who make the concessions?'
There is a self imposed apartheid being allowed to creep in in this country, which does no good whatsoever for integation, or the politician's buzz word multiculturalism.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:15 AM

On a slight thread drift I feel that it is necessary to divorce "cultural practices and preferences" from the freedom to practice any World religion. The tradition of female genital cutting is banned in the UK, even on elective surgery undertaken by mature women, although this is not so in all counties.
In attempting to avoid "Western cultural imperialism" I feel we are sometimes in danger, of being unable to discuss issues that are important to a country of many and varied cultures; or, even worse, reducing genuine attempts to the butt of satire in the same way that the initial concept of using language that was not deliberatly demeaning of any gender, race or creed resulted in the insistance on non-use of such words as manhole cover!

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:25 AM

Freda's right, the question is a red herring.

Straw is making his pitch for the deputy leadership.
Why do we never get wise to the ways of politicians? Maybe we really DO deserve everything we get.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:21 AM

me and my big mouth. my point is that whatever we say (you, me & the dingo) is just an opinion. but anything a politician says has more power, by virtue of who they are. and yes, i think his motive is purely political.

no, i don't support genital mutilation, jehova's witnesses or fox-hunting.

women in veils cop a lot of discrimination - they are sworn at, spat on, etc. they are the public face of Islam. and they are more likely to stay home to avoid that treatment - comments like jack straw's just provoke the worst type of people into hassling muslim women.

cultural changes happen over generations - it's unlikely that the first generation of women will willingly change. but judgements from politicians are much more likely to force people to hang on to their traditions than to abandon them.

i remember what a hoo-hah was caused when boys started wearing long hair at school (quite a long time ago, as you can guess). this is a bit the same - bitching at all those long haired boys just made it all the more fashionable.

freda (running out quickly!)

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:24 AM

ps I think men with beards should shave them off - i can't see their faces. particularly folkie men with beards. it's very unsocialble and they scratch when you get close.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:40 AM

Well whatever the motivation, I'm glad the issue has been raised. Like many people, I find facial expression part of a conversation (or what makes it more worthwhile than a telephone call) and additionaly, I would feel distinctly uncomfortable holding such a conversation with a person whose face is covered up.

We also live in a society where others are expected to show thier face because of concerns, eg. a motorcyclist may be expected to remove his helmet before paying for petrol - something that can cause a fair amount of inconvenience, particularly on a cold day, "hoodies" have caused concern, etc. and I consider it perfectly reasonable for a muslim to be asked to remove this optional full veil.

(Which I gather is more than Jack Straw is reported as asking - I believe he asks them to consider removing the veil).

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:42 AM

Freda, you are throwing in a complete red herring. The same problem would exist if it was men, not women who wore this veil. It is about covered faces and nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:47 AM

guest, for you its about covered faces. for me its about politicians fingerpointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:51 AM

and in this case, pointing to an issue of concern to many of us. The covering of a face.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:53 AM

and the covering of an identity, guest. why do people do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

No, the covering up of an identity was not the issue Jack Straw raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 06:59 AM

wooooooosh!

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:00 AM

This violates a very important tenet of these women's faith.

It doesn't, Mick. Modest dress, yes, and that is often interpreted to mean a headscarf. But a full veil covering the face has never been a religious requirement for Moslem women anywhere, though it has been and often is a social expectation.

It would be completely wrong if Jack Straw had been demanding that woemen should put aside their face coverings - but to say that you would prefer something is not the same as a demand. (Leaving aside the situation where the request is a veiled demand, which doesn't apply in this case.)

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:01 AM

Does that mean you acknowledge throwing in guest postings at Mudcat was another red herring of yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: The Walrus
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:09 AM

Okay, I know it's probably a first move on the Labour Pary leadership/deputy post, but that aside:

As I understood the matter, Jack straw asked women at his surgery to remove their veils during interviews (ensuring that there was a female member of his staff present at all times), and that these same women had the right to refuse - the business about his aversion to the veil generally came out as a result of newspaper and radio interviews.
I'm sure someone out there will correct me.

One point, I wonder how his female constituants would feel if, on their refusing to remove the veil, Straw were to pull on a ski mask or something similar, just to put them on an equal footing? (and before anyone jumps down my throat about it, yes, I do know it's a ridiculous idea).

W

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:12 AM

Shelves of Herring [Frederic Schroers of Portland, Oregon]

It was a fine and a pleasant day,
In a supermarket I was faring,
And I walked for miles
Up and down the aisles,
As I hunted for the shelves of herring.

Shopping trolleys few
And the lines were long,
And the people, sure they took some bearing.
There was little kindness And the kids were many,
As I hunted for the shelves of herring.

O I took my catch to a ten-item line,
And at me the cashier sure was swearing;
For I'd a hundred cans of the silver darlings
That I'd taken from the shelves of herring!

Now for six long months I've been eating fish,
And my house it sure could use an airing!
And now I know, never again I'll go
For to hunt the shelves for tins of herring!

(As posted on folkinfo.org)

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:20 AM

I think that you'll find Freda means, that your complaining about people hiding their identity while you post as a Guest, is a bit of an own goal on your part!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:21 AM

10 February 2004
Balaclava Ban for two Brothers Aged 11 and 12
"Two brothers aged 11 and 12 have been banned from wearing balaclavas or other face coverings under an anti-social behaviour order obtained by Manchester City Council.

It is the first time in the city that youngsters of this age have been subject to such a ban, which covers the whole of England and Wales and lasts indefinitely.

Ryner Blakeborough and his older brother James, of Newcliffe Road, Blackley, had been seen in a gang of youths wearing balaclavas to hide their identities outside a house in Crosslee Road in November, according to evidence presented to Manchester magistrates court. The gang was shouting abuse and running in and out of gardens."

Apart from disguising their identities the face coverings were regarded as threatening by residents!

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:22 AM

it was a veiled allusion..!

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:25 AM

balaclavas are associated in Oz with hold ups of petrol stations, banks & all night shops. so i can understand why people would be threatened.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:33 AM

Nonsense, giok. Identities on Mudcat have nothing to do with what Jack Straw said. Please don't let obessions over identites over Mudcat get in the was of the fact that the feminist i9ssues are red-herrings.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST, as a veil/masque substitute
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:37 AM

I've only worn a veil very briefly, when I got married. I did it for cultural reasons, which mainly involved pleasing my mother.
However, I have worn a mask. At first I felt very self-conscious, but then I found it very liberating when I realised that (apart from people who knew me and were used to masks, and who would know me by the way I stood and moved) no-one would recognise me or be able to identify me later.
Maybe people wearing veils feel the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:38 AM

Thats a very good reason for stopping it Guest

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:41 AM

I must say that I feel uncomfortable with "the veil". Interestingly, when Muslim women - who insist on wearing the veil - visit/emigrate - to Britain, it's amazing how their religious "rules" are "relaxed" to allow them to reveal their faces to passport control, and thereby gain entry to Britain. Being pragmatic, it might be that Western culture will never be able to fully embrace such "alien" cultural/religious practices.