BS: US's strongest ally.

Subject: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 03:40 AM

.....is France.
There is " no stronger ally or friend"

Not in terms of fighting any recent wars obviously.
I suppose the main fact in their favour is that they are not British.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:52 AM

"No stronger" means all the others are either weaker or equally strong. The latter must have been suggested by Obama with respect to other NATO countries, to stick to the rules of diplomacy. Probably he wanted to say "We neither have a better friend nor a stauncher ally". There can be a strong friendship to a weak person.

When politicians speak about friendship between countries, they actually mean particular governments in a particular moment.

Diplomatic bla-bla has nothing to do with ordinary people and should not be allowed to affect their emotions.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM

Definition of UK's special relationship:

Britain lays down with legs spread and nods when it can taste the tip of the US baseball bat in the back of the throat, introduced from below.

It's all a bit of a one-sided contest, especially when viewed from the Wikileak's data perspective. Only confirmed that which all but most hopeful of politicians knew anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 07:58 AM

"Probably he wanted to say "We neither have a better friend nor a stauncher ally". "

Obama may not have supported the last Iraq war, but he can not deny that Britain was among the allies of USA, and France was not.
In Afghanistan he must know that Britain has many more of its people fighting alongside US troops than France has sent, and that many more British people have died fighting there than French people.

So by what criteria is Britain not "a stauncher ally"?

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Silas
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM

Do we really WANT to be a "stauncher ally"?

Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:12 AM

Well, I think America and France were on the same side (at times tacitly rather than officially so) during some of the Napoleonic wars, weren't they, and France helped out a bit against the English in general in the North American continent at about that time didn't they?

Otherwise it seems a bit of a stretch from "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" and renaming "French Fries" as "Freedom Fries" to this.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:19 AM

Only the ignorant thought french fries were french.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:31 AM

Or ever called them Freedom Fries.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

Ever since the War of 1812, we have had the British as our allies and friends. We are still a little pissed about the redcoats burning Washington, but everybody has issues in their relationships. Now the French, despite Lafayette, are another story. We love their wines, movies, and style, but we just don't trust them. If the Brits are the cranky uncle who is there when you need him, the French are the wayward cousin who everybody hopes will eventually come to his senses and make something of himself. We don't tell the Brits how much we love them, because they would just blush and look uncomfortable. It's the French who need that sort of constant approval.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:03 PM

sheesh Talk about ambivalence. Or perhaps even hypocrisy. We hear a great many comments about how awful the US is and then thee are squabbles as to who is the US's best friend? What makes you care?

As far as I'm concerned, the 'best friend' is Canada. Not that they don't moan about the big, bad wolf but they know where their lot lies and they are mostly comfortable with that.

I think.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:04 PM

Not quite, Eej; the long and winding road of British-U.S. diplomatic relations was also very bumpy until the 1871 Treaty of Washington, which (among other things) demilitarized the Canadian-U.S. border and settled the claims arising from the sinking of the CSS Albama.

At that time, "demilitarized" meant that Canadians and Americans could visit each other without benefit of passport. I guess the border is "re-militarized" now.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 12:45 PM

probably Iran - where would your industry be if you didn't have to keep making weapon systems to keep them in check?

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:16 PM

China, they provide all the funds to do whatever, and make just about everything the USA uses.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

I think that France was seen as the USA's best friend and strongest ally right up to the end of WWI. Then Great Britain supplanted France as the number one American ally and has remained so since (if you don't count Israel).

There were a number of reasons why Americans felt close to France in the pre-WWI era. One was that the French gave very significant help to the Americans during the American Revolution. Not only with Lafayette and his troops on the ground, but the presence of the French fleet (which had defeated and driven away a large British naval force) made certain the American victory at Yorktown, the decisive battle of that war. So France was seen as a great ally against the British, and remained so for some time.

It was only the rise of the modern state of Germany under Bismark's brilliant guidance that changed that situation...eventually driving the French and British into one another's arms, as it were, through their common fear of Germany's imperial ambitions.

I know that during Mark Twain's life, for example, the French were seen as the natural ally of Americans, and were much admired, while the British were regarded with some measure of hostility.

Another reason for a close relationship between Americas and French was that the French, like the USA, had rejected monarchy in the 1700s and turned to a republican form of government. That was a very significant political issue in the 1700s and 1800s, and it was another thing that made Americans like France better than Great Britain, despite sharing a common language with the English.

All that changed during WWI, and the USA and Great Britain became staunch allies from that point on, while the American affection for France dwindled to some extent...possibly due to French intransigence at the Treaty of Versailles, and later due to the early French surrender in WWII and various unfortunate incidents where the Anglo-American Allies got into combat with Vichy French forces in North Africa.

The French Army was long seen by many as the finest army in continental Europe, possibly in the world, but they lost that reputation gradually with their catastrophic defeat in the Franco-Prussian War and subsequent weakening of the French position in Europe.

It was really the rise of Germany which ended the primacy of France in western Europe. The Germans were more populous than the French, and they proved to be superior in the art of war.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:17 PM

Many people think that the French determination to permanently weaken and humiliate the Germans after WWI mandated a more militant Germany and caused WWII.

The US had the wisdom to pour huge amounts of aid into both Japan and Germany after WWII. The US raw materials and technology helped those two countries become Top 10 players on the world stage and two of our closest allies.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:38 PM

Yes, pdq, I would agree that it was the punitive French actions against Germany at the Treaty of Versailles that made WWII inevitable and led to France's greatest historical defeat, among other considerably worse things. They should have known better.

I think the USA's wisdom in helping to re-build Germany and Japan after WWII was pragmatically aimed at one basic objective: confronting and containing the Soviets. They were already planning for the next great confrontation whilst cleaning up the wreckage from the last one. ;-) That is what military empires do. Some of the advanced German technology (and personnel) proved very helpful to both the Americans and the Soviets as they armed to face off against one another.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

Keith A,

So by what criteria is Britain not "a stauncher ally"?

I didn't write that. My point was that a strong friend or ally is a friend or ally who is strong, whereas a group of persons with whom someone has a strong friendship and alliance is a good friend and a staunch ally.

So this was what Obama wanted to say: France is not stronger than Britain, but it is now, other than some years ago, as reliable an ally as Britain has been for a long time.

Actually both Sarkozy and Obama have changed their countries' foreign politics substantially.

Now my own opinion:

Countries cannot be friends, governments can (to some extent, and subject to revocation). Countries don't start wars, persons in power do, and soldiers have to fight them, more or less enthusiastically. If you are lucky, you can elect your government according to your interests, but you should never let them govern your emotions, or you are on the losing side even if your government wins.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 06:50 PM

The pigheadedness of Australia PM (for the racist white Australia Policy - which many other nations, including especially the USA were keen to let the Aussies be the fall guy) alienated Japan (and others), and led to the destruction of the League of Nations, and the militarism which led to Japan trying to take over as much as it could grab.

But Australia was only a short while ago the staunchest ally of the USA... and if we kicked them out of here with their nuclear ships in our ports and spy bases, and satellite monitoring stations for both military and NASA, it would hurt the USA critically in (attempted) world domination. And our Special forces were only a short while ago praised as the best in the world, and at the beck and call of the USA...

Australia, the almost 51st state ...

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 11 - 10:30 PM

Poster is GUEST,DonMeixner
I wish we would separates governments from people. I am not always proud of my government's activities but I am always proud of my country.

If there is a Tsunami(Indonesia) or an earthquake(Haiti) we will stop what we are doing and do the humanitarian thing. I haven't a clue what the comparison of aid is but I'd like to see what the Iraqis, Saudis, Kuwaitis, or anybody else with significant oil wealth contributed to the world need for aid over the last 50 years. I suspect it doesn't compare favorably with the aid sent by the US, Canada, or Great Britain.

D

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 12:04 AM

54/40 or Fight, Charmion! You and me at the next Getaway,twenty paces with loaded 6 strings! You know as well as I do Lethbridge rightfully belongs to Montana!

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 03:34 AM

Ebbie asks why I care.
Is it not an insult to an old and loyal friend?
Diplomacy is supposed to avoid insulting any other nation.
Many or even most of us may not want us to be a stauncher ally of US, but the fact remains that in NATO, in UN, and in the expending of our blood and money, we have supported you when France has not.

Subject: RE: BS: US's strongest ally.
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Aw EJ, you fellas don't really want Lethbridge, or the rest of Palliser's Triangle, do you? That's our very favourite dustbowl waiting to happen again! You should also consider giving back the Aroostook territory -- you're obviously not taking care of it, as anyone can tell from from a day's driving on Route 2 in winter.

My mother once had a pair of tabby kittens named Tippecanoe and Tiger Too, but we could never quite figure out how to name a cat after either the Oregon or Alaska boundary disputes.