Tech: Combining computer security programs?

Subject: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:53 PM

I searched to see if any old threads touch on this, but it was a tour of now-obsolete tech questions. Since nothing turned up, here goes. I'm on a Dell desktop XPS, up to date, using Win10 still.

This week in November of 2024 I have switched from Spectrum Internet to AT&T Internet. Spectrum offered a Security Suite for free to download and run on the computer and browsers. It has antivirus and real-time browsing features (such as F-Secure Browsing protection) as part of it.

Since I've switched from Spectrum (cable) to AT&T (fiber optic) I am changing the antivirus software in my computer to what is provided free to subscribers by the company. I was using Spectrum's Security Suite and F-Secure browser extensions.

AT&T offers a McAfee suite - I'm not fond of McAfee because if it's behavior in the marketplace, how it comes bundled in so many programs (you have to de-select it for some downloads) and preinstalled (my new phone, for example). But this is a regular security suite of stuff that AT&T offers free to users of the fiber services.

Meanwhile, I've paid for Malwarebytes for several years after using free for many years before that. It includes VPN and I have it on four devices with real-time protection, and some other stuff.

Spectrum's Security Suite didn't like Malwarebytes and anytime I turned on the computer it popped up and said it wanted to remove the conflicting software. I told it to not ask again and turned off the request. They seemed to work ok, and this brings me to this question:

Malwarebytes Premium Plus does a lot but it isn't a true-antivirus. I did some research to ask the Interwebs if McAfee and Malwarebytes can be used together and it seems like they're ok. I'm wondering if any of our usual techie folks have real-world experience or thoughts on this?

I cancelled the Spectrum account today (it's hard - you're battling a hard-core sales person who's trying to offer you incentives to stay - they should have said "yes" when I called last week and asked them to lower the price because they were unable to deliver the 600meg they said they upgraded me to - they never managed 500 that I was paying for - it rarely got over 300meg). AT&T is up and running and I set up their modem to passthrough so I'm using my existing router firewall and network setup, having turned off the AT&T Firewall and WiFi. And I uninstalled the Spectrum security software on my desktop and am now looking at McAfee. I don't want to pay for another program, I'll use this if it seems adequate and not likely to conflict with the Malwarebytes that I do choose to pay for.

Any thoughts or suggestions? (It has been a busy day - talking to the AT&T installation tech and his sidekick who arrives to "set you up" - except I made it clear he wasn't going near my equipment or selling me anything else to go along with the internet service. They back off when realize you've been doing this since before they were born.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 12:23 PM

It took sorting through their site to find the actual security they offer. For fiber or others it can be McAfee, but they target the fiber modem with something called ActiveArmorST. And it seems to want to only protect its own named network. It sees one "Device" that is my passthrough router that the entire network runs on. Does this bode well or ill for everything that comes through the router? I think I'm going to turn off the feature and look for a standard antivirus.

Talking to tech support is always more helpful than talking to sales people. It still seems that the apps on the phone are the main way to turn things on and off (I had to use the phone to turn off the ActiveArmor). She agreed I'd set it up correctly for the passthrough, so I think I'm good to go and will set up the separate ID I need to get their McAfee and see how that works on the computers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:48 PM

Still not there as far as being able to load McAfee, but enough time has been wasted today. I'll put in a free anti-virus for the moment just to have something and try again tomorrow.

It is looking like some parts of AT&T only want to talk to my computer via its own network (whether wired or WiFi) and not through my router, so I have to fiddle with that a bit before I try again.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 03:12 AM

I have McAfee and Malwarebytes on my Dell Inspiron Laptop. They’re fine together, never had any kind of problem. But mine’s a simple stand-alone computer, fancy schmancy networks might be a different kettle of fish…

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 03:33 AM

I'm wondering if any of our usual techie folks have real-world experience or thoughts on this?

I don't have any recent practical experience of Windows anti-malware so my thoughts on it are purely theoretical. I think running two products that use the same privileged deep access the operating system is a bad idea. Hopefully each of those products is tested with Windows and their authors are aware of changes and planned changes in Windows. But I doubt if they are tested in combination with each other. Microsoft certainly advise against running defender and another AV product.

Which products have 'privieged deep access' and which use normal user-level file access (albeit with elevated 'root' permissions) you have to judge. Malwarebytes was just a file scanner when I last knew it 15 years ago.

For the same reason, I would think twice before installing any non-microsoft 'security' software because Microsoft does not, I assume, test 3rd party products with each update to Windows.

I went looking for expert opinion. Not from the product suppliers themselves, or from sites that have an interest in these products' existance - for example they take adverts (computer magazines as they would once have been). Brian Krebs for example. I've certainly read opinions that 'security' products - even the fact that Microsoft provides deep-level interfaces for them - actually decrease security. But I didn't find anything recent.

My wife has just bought a Win 8 laptop to replace her 10 yo Win 10 Thinkpad. Investigating how to restore her backups to it I discovered that Microsoft had deprecated File History Backup since 2017! Microsoft wants us to use, and pay extra for, OneDrive storage. I thought File History was the best feature in Win 10 and she's used it ever since. But I discover it still works in Win 11 if you can find it. (They did something similar to the previous Windows Backup.)

I'm not even sure that Defender still exists as a separate thing. 365 seems to offer something in this area but I'm not sure what. If the AV features (eg signatures, blacklists) are included in Windows that's fine but Microsoft are deliberately(?) unclear - they want to see cloud services.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 06:53 AM

> But I didn't find anything recent.

There's yards and yards on the recent Crowdstrike quality-control snafu taking out a hefty percentage of the corporate MS-Windows systems, precisely because their AV software requested and required extreme-deep-level access. But that's not the case with Stilly, I presume.

Ultimately, we all have to trust *something*, and it's up to each of us to choose what we trust. This message will self-destruct in fifteen sec*FOOM*

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:22 AM

I've spent years avoiding McAfee like the plague due to its checkered history... but I'm still on Win7 Pro, so I just plug along with Avast and their regular attempts to sell me upgrades.
   I'm beginning to think that being a relative Luddite about new versions of Windows will suffice.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:29 AM

I don't know whether crowdstrike used an official MS-provided interface or whether it just interfered with Windows. I suspect, but don't know, that MS allows such products to work - rather than locking them out - for commercial reasons. But Windows uses a publicly available boot procedure (EFI) - which Macs do not.

Wirecutter in 2020 quotes Brian Krebs: "You Don’t Need to Buy Antivirus Software":
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/best-antivirus/
But the Krebs article referred to was from 2012:
Tools for a Safer PC
And this is interesting - but from 2010:
Anti-virus Products Mostly Ignore Windows Security Features
What's the situation in 2024?

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:00 AM

The interface in question is official, I believe, otherwise CrowdStrike would have to rewrite the hooking-in process for every last minor update of MS-Windows.* Methinks there's heavy padlocks on that back door.

That comment from Krebs reminds me of an occasion when one of our customers asked whether there was an anti-virus solution for Linux (as mandated by the University for all users' computers). One wag commented that he thought using Linux *was* an anti-virus solution, but with a heavy smiley.

* As do Nvidia with their out-of-tree drivers for the Linux kernel.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:47 AM

Good remarks, and align with what I'm discovering. I looked at turning on Windows Defender, but as long as I have Malwarebytes it won't do it's deep protection thing, though it will run regular scans. I played with it and gave it more information to pay more attention to other kinds of threats - my information on the Dark Web, etc., but I have a separate account (not loaded on the computer) to do that.

I didn't put in a free antivirus, I did the Windows Defender thing to see what was up with it.

In my various attempts to try to reach the AT&T version I followed a link to the McAfee site and it asked for my email address, but I couldn't get it to link to AT&T. McAfee sent an email this morning telling me my free trial is up and running - what bollox. Now I'll be pestered by the company until I get them to go away. I'll make one more effort to contact AT&T Tech support when I have a free hour later this evening.

I kind of miss the blue line that arrived on the screen any time I contacted a banking institution. You couldn't use another browser to connect to another institution at the same time, but that was ok. Only a couple of times did I have to backout of where I was and go refer to the other place before opening the secure browsing again. Yes, it's supposed to always be secure, and the green thing no doubt pops up any time the banking URLs give it the sign - but it did do something that seemed helpful.

Now to keep out the rest of the crap that's out there that Malwarebytes might not be set up for.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:52 PM

I see that Malwarebytes offer a free antivirus. It wasn't included in the premium plus package I bought for my devices. I'm reading reviews of that now. It would be the easiest approach; McAfee would have a lot of redundancies to what I'm already getting with the Malwarebytes-fee product.

Follow-up - it looks like the antivirus is not necessary with the rest of their program.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 02:33 AM

This new Windows 11 laptop I mentioned runs Windows 11 Home in S - 'secure' - mode. This turned out to mean that you can only install programs from the Windows Store. And you can't install Firefox - or probably Chrome: you have to use the Microsoft Edge browser.

It took me an hour to discover this and to switch Windows out of S-mode - it's deliberately confusing - you have to install something from the Store to remove the limitations.

Anyway, I came accross this FAQ my research:

Do I need Antivirus Software while in S mode?

Yes, we recommend all Windows devices use antivirus software. Currently, the only antivirus software known to be compatible with Windows 11 in S mode is the version that comes with it: Windows Defender Security Center. Windows Defender Security Center delivers a robust suite of security features that help keep you safe for the supported lifetime of your Windows 11 device.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 11:01 AM

My hair is still ash, not silver, but I'm not paying for antivirus. (I used the version that comes with the IP service.)
Why you don't need to pay for antivirus software anymore
Americans over 65 are twice as likely to pay for third-party antivirus software than those under 45. If you're still doing it, here's why you can stop.

How to protect your tech in 2024
Regardless of which device category we're talking about here, you're likely to be just fine with the default protection that's included as part of the platform. On a mobile device (iOS or Android), that means the app store that the OS developer manages. On a Mac, the XProtect antimalware technology has been around for over a decade and is effective against mainstream threats.

As for Windows? Well, Microsoft Defender Antivirus, which is included with every Windows PC, routinely aced the tests from third-party labs that measure the effectiveness of security software. The leveling-up process started about seven years ago, and the Microsoft solution has regularly scored between 99% and 100% since then, making it every bit as effective as third-party rivals, free or paid.

Even that result understates the case.

So I guess in that I'm set, no extra antivirus (not even the one from the company this time.)

The article below that one compares Malware and VPN offerings, different from anti-virus. Two companies, Bitdefender and Malwarebytes. It also somewhat contradicts the article above by talking about antivirus to consider. I got Malwarebytes for two years, four devices, 35% off the normal price so not that much more than Bitdefender. I'll make a note to revisit this in two-years time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 11:04 AM

While we're talking security, you might want to think about passkeys.

What are passkeys? Experience the life-changing magic of going passwordless
Here's how to take the first steps toward ditching passwords for good.

Passkeys are sets of two cryptographic keys: a public key that's registered with the online service or app, and a private key that's stored on a device, such as a smartphone or a computer.

That might sound complicated, but passkeys have been designed to be easy to use. In fact, to log in with a passkey, you use your face, a fingerprint, or a PIN in much the same way that you unlock your smartphone.

The advantage of passkeys is that even if a hacker gets their hands on a website's public key, your account is still locked because they don't have access to the private key on your device.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 02:59 PM

This article is good, and highlights the potential problems with getting people to adopt passkeys:

Will_passkeys_ever_replace_passwords?_Can_they?
Here's_why_they_really_should

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 04:11 PM

I have major trust issues: Go Figure.
I don't know how to trust passkey programs. So I have some antiquated but very hard to imagine passwords. And I have written them down in a notebook for my dotage and my heirs, in that order, I guess.

For online use I have Malwarebytes Free and AVG Free. They are both active and both try to sell me their pro versions which I may buy but have not yet. There don't seem to be issues with bad interactions between them. My overall understanding of what they do/ how they work is at a lower level than the crowd here, but it's an important subject so I'm trying to learn from you all.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 06:21 PM

Robomatic, what I've learned through this is if you simply turn on your Windows Defender you'll have some of the best antivirus in place and it comes with the machine (if you're on a PC). Not sure what to tell you about Apple.

Malwarebytes is somewhat different in how it works, but when I have it in there, Windows won't turn on Defender full time.

I'm not ready to try passkeys either. I stick for now with passphrases I've created that I can generally remember even as odd as they may look. I do also use a FIDO device and authentication software with 2-factor authentication. My phone has several apps that I've set up to use biometrics, my face or my fingerprint.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 08:19 AM

> Not sure what to tell you about Apple.

One thing I can say about Apple: *DO NOT* under any circumstances believe the urban myth that Apple kit is malware-proof. The bar stewards who perpetrate malware have long ago realised that users of Apple kit are high-interest targets, and started targeting them.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 10:25 AM

.... As I was going to continue before the grue in my laptop ate my text:

I've now read the article from ElReg linked above: considered balanced. My suspicion is that hardware USB thingies associated with passkeys will become cheaper once a big bank suffers a headline-hitting loss that it can't blame on the customer, despite 2FA, and starts taking user-access security seriously; then it'll be in security software writers' interests to make setting up passkeys a first-class citizen. Till then, we'll be stuck with passwords (at best backed with another auth mechanism), as passwords are dirt-cheap to implement. *Sigh*.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 24 - 03:53 PM

The power went off a couple of times this week, once in a storm, but the other day just randomly, except a breaker in the box outside didn't flip. The UPS was acting up, and last night I decided to check it out. It's a CyberPower unit that is addressable via a USB cable to the computer.

I opened the software and it said it was running normally so moved to the next tab and told it to run the self-test feature, and two seconds later there was a small explosion and the battery inside the device burst into flames. It was out in moments as I yanked off all things attached to it and lugged it into the yard. The replacement is the same thing, newer model (I read a lot of reviews before going with this again). Sine wave, AVR, and the battery is replacable. The ones in the old device were replaced (name brand) several years ago (my Amazon purchase history shows a replacement from five years ago - that seems a very long time for a battery to be in service.) I think the age of the battery was the problem - and something I'll need to make a note about checking more often. There is computer security and then there is computer security!

The new UPS arrived this morning and is charging now.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Nov 24 - 05:18 PM

That's rather alarming. I have a UPS - it's a small refurb APC unit which keeps the fibre internet and wifi alive for an hour. It's not enough to run a desktop. The lead-acid battery, which is about 4 years old, is a ~12cm cube and is supposed to last at 3 to 6 years.

My wife's new Win 11 laptop is set up. I fought off all attempts to subscribe me to Microsoft Office 365 and bought an Office 2019 licence for £25 on Amazon - which arrived in the post! File History turned out to be unable to transfer data from the old laptop, despite many how-tos which said it could, so I had copy the files via a USB drive. That wouldn't have been possible if the old machine had failed.

We'll revert to our previous backup strategy: File History backup at end of day, AOMEI (free) Backup every month, and occasional copies to a USB drive in case AOMEI's backup isn't usable (I've never tried to restore one). This is a cheap HP laptop so I doubt if it'll be as reliable as the Thinkpads - one of which dates from 2006 and still works, slowly, with 32-bit Linux.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 01:29 PM

I learned something new today (it probably should have been intuited, but for whatever reason, not) that having more than one adblocker program at time isn't a good idea.

I opened my browser a couple of nights ago and the renewal notice was there for AdBlock Plus; I keep a spreadsheet for these things to know when a year has passed and saw that that was the day to renew. So I did. Then in my email I saw that it had already renewed itself earlier in the day, so I had paid twice.

I found a "help" link and sent a short description of what had happened and included the transaction info from both. And today I got a very helpful answer. It seems that at one time AdBlock and AdBlock Plus were different companies (one was started in the FireFox browser but expanded out to others). I picked them up when they were developed but didn't change anything after the merger and such.

We don't recommend using multiple ad blockers (even our own). It can slow down your browser, create issues when you pause, display duplicate payment pages during updates, and doesn't provide any additional ad blocking.

To start with, they sent this article about the two programs I had running at the same time, and had actually renewed one of each. I decided to stick with AdBlock Plus Premium because in addition to Chrome, Firefox, and Edge (plus Edge Beta) I sometimes use the Opera browser that is included; everything else looked pretty equal as far as my needs.

I had an accumulation of extensions I haven't looked at in ages, and ended up removing three other ad blocking extensions in Chrome and a couple of others in Firefox. (One was Ghostery, that used to be kind of interesting in what it reported sites were doing.) I still have Malwarebytes in there, but everything else is cleaned out. And they're going to refund the second subscription (they said tell them which I was keeping and they'd refund the other. Very helpful support folks.)

I also hadn't really set up the Premium features I'd paid for - so I went into each browser and authenticated. This seems to be my computer cleanup season.

Subject: RE: Tech: Combining computer security programs?
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Nov 24 - 03:19 PM

In the beginning was AdBlock - an addon for Mozilla (not Firefox - that didn't exist). I used it on the Mozilla browser, which became SeaMonkey. That died and was taken forward on Firefox as AdBlock Plus (because Adblock still existed) by Wladimir Palant. I used that too, for many years. Full story here. By the time Google Chrome came along Adblock no longer existed so somebody took (bought?) the name for a Chrome Extension.

Wladimir Palant still writes on security of browsers and mobile apps - for example this recent piece.

A few years ago I changed to ublock origin on Firefox. It was a lighter version - originally called μBlock (micro block) - developed by Raymond Hill.

Some ad-blockers containing the word 'AdBlock' or 'AdBlocker' are spyware. Both AdBlock Plus and uBlock Origin are OK.

Google has made changes to Chrome to prevent ad blockers working. They still work on Firefox.