If that's the way they're going to be...

Subject: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,Penelope
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:47 AM

I am coming the opposite way of most folk here I would guess. I frequent rec.music.folk, and just learned about Mudcat through the so-called "Duffers" thread. Someone named Helen (there is also a Mudcat "member" listed simply as Helen) started another thread about the reaction to Abby Sale's post here on Mudcat.

Someone in that second thread then came in mocking some people who are apparently Mudcat regulars, and of course, some people who appear also to be Mudcat regulars have entered the fray.

Without wanting to start a crossposted cyberspace flame war, may I ask just what is going on? Is there some competition between the two forums or something? I admit to only lurking here yesterday, to see if I could get a sense of things. It is true there seems to be a lot of enmity between your members and your guests, and that this is not an on-topic for music sort of place. And that there is some disagreement among Mudcat posters about the quality of the forum and the accuracy and usefulness of the DT. But I don't see any sort of discussion of rec.music.folk going on.

So, rather than post in what clearly has a potential to going to a flame war, I thought I would stick a toe in the water and ask here instead. Is there some competition between Mudcat and rec.music.folk?

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: IanC
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:04 AM

Penelope

Not that I know of, but I think some people who are members of both forums are just playing out their little games.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:15 AM

maybe someone could set up a forum specifically for trolls, flamers, -ve guests; so they could compete with each other in a regular sniping session

it might be called, 'kick the cat'

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: paddymac
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:34 AM

Penelope - I don't think it is accurate to say that 'catter's don't like guests. After all, we all started out as guests, and guests regularly make great contributions to the content and quality of the myriad discussions we get into. It may be more accurate to say that we seem not to be overly fond of those occasional trolls and related troglydites whose only interest in coming here is to vent whatever nastiness seems to possess them at that moment. Putting up with such sick people is just part of the price we pay to maintain an open forum, and the trick that we all eventually learn is to just ignore them. I would encourage you to become a member here. The family is filled with good and decent people from many places, and kindred souold are always welcomed with open arms.

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: paddymac
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:36 AM

Typing never has been my forte. "Souold" was meant to be "souls."

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:40 AM

Penelope:

Hi! Welcome to the Cat.

What has happebed is that two people have unintentionally fomented all this ra-ra by posting half-baked remarks which served as troll bait par excellence among those readers of both forums who are a little short in the "Real Life" department.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:44 AM

I appreciate your desire to set me straight Paddymac, but I didn't say "'catters don't like guests".

I said "there seems to be a lot of enmity between your members and your guests". I based that comment on a huge (250+ posts) thread titled "An Open Letter from Max to Guests". I would have thought the statement "there seems to be enmity between members and guests" to be a pretty precise summation of that thread.

The culture here appears (to me as an outsider, looking in) to have a lot of enmity between guest posters and member posters. I haven't a clue as to why that is, nor am I concerned about it. I was just wondering if there was a history of enmity between rec.music.folk and Mudcat which brought on the flurry of posts about Mudcat in rmf.

Or is the enmity between members and guests spilling over into rmf--is that what you meant, IanC?

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,Penelope
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:46 AM

Hey! That's me up there. Why isn't there a prompt for me to fill in my name? Was there one when I first started this thread (I'm embarrassed to say I didn't notice, can't remember or both!) I can't recall ever seeing a log-in that didn't require you to fill in the username?

Penelope (sheepishly crawling back in the hole now)

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:51 AM

Amos,

We're not short in the 'real life' department.

we just find this quite amusing, especially how some members 'explode' when you press a tiny button.

They, if anyone, are short of 'real life'

This a website for christ's sake...

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: IanC
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:02 AM

No, Penelope, that's not what I meant. Just that there are a few of people - guests, members (only a preference for how you declare yourself) - who appear to like playing games with each other and winding up as many other people as they can.

Stay out of it and come & play with us (or with rec.music.folk). This one is capturing our attention at present and this one. Or perhaps this one ...

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,Penelope
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:02 AM

Hi Amos, and thanks for the welcome. The main reason why I came here myself to check things out is that, in my couple years of mostly lurking around rmf, Abby Sale has always been one of the most knowledgeable and gentlemanly of posters in the group. So I'm afraid your description of him doesn't match up to the impression I carry of him in my head.

Do you know Abby?

Penelope

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:12 AM

A GUEST is just someone who hasn't logged in as a member -maybe they haven't got round to registering, maybe they are on a computer where they can't log in as member, and there are other sensible enough reasons.

Most of the time when people come in as GUEST they put in a name of some kind, the way Penelope did just there at the start of the thread, which makes it easier for other people to respond to a post. Sometimes it's the same name they might use as a member, sometimes it mighty not be.

Noone so far as I am aware has ever showed any kind of antagonism towards GUESTS who do that. Sometimes people will disagree with what's said or how its said, but that's nothing to do with whether someone is a GUEST or a member.

However it is also possible to log in as a GUEST without putting in any name, and that has very often been associated with trolling and flaming and general unpleasantness. So when people post without names it tends to seem unfriendly, and more often than not it seems pretty clear that that is how it is meant.

But once again, aside from that, there is no antagonism towards guests as such. And none towards any other net forums that may exist. If some people over-reacted over that harmless enough crack about duffers, isn't it's always the case that you feel protective towards something you are fond of and value? And inevitably there likely to be trolls around who would love to stir up that kind of discord.

And have a look around Penelope, there's a lot of music related threads, and the general design of the site is great for moving around, once you get into it. And I doubt if we've got a higher proportion of pillocks around than anywhere else.

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:50 AM

The reason that trolling at Mudcat is so much fun is that Mudcatters like McGrath of Harlow are always quick to respond with 100+ posts of how wonderful Mudcat is and how evil trolling guests are. On any given day, there are always more than a few of these threads going.

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 May 02 - 12:19 PM

Penelope, pay no attention to the slug that just posted. We are very happy to have you as a GUEST or as a member. These people, like most of the flamers/trollers in other sites, are low on self esteem and get their kicks out of baiting some of our members who just can't keep themselves from responding. These trollers/flamers then sit there and congratulate themselves on how they can make the puppets dance, and their poor lives have meaning. I used to get upset about it until I realized that we are just doing a public service for the less fortunate among us. Heck, I even participate sometimes.

There is no enmity between the sites, just a different direction in the two. One is supposedly more rigid in what it allows. This one takes the tack of being a site that talks about many issues that spawn music, as well as the music itself. There are those that just don't like that. An example would be the "Back Home In Derry" threads where we talk about the music and the issues that spawned that music. Another would be the "Why We Sing" thread. A great one, maybe the greatest, would be the "Spancil Hill" thread. To be sure, we go down many roads here, and there are many levels of musical competency and reknown that inhabit these precincts as well. It is not a music site in the strictest sense, rather a site that has blues/folk/music in general, as the glue that holds it all together.

And we are very happy you asked. Stick around, we are better for your presence.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 02 - 01:16 PM

Penelope..if you'd like to be a 'member'..(which means you have access to several other features..like private messages and NOT having to type your name each time) you'd have to allow a Mudcat cookie...click on the "memebership has it's rewards" button and sign up. No obligation, and all Mudcat cookies do is recognize you when you show up...

We are a community here...and you may participate to any level you choose...

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 02 - 01:48 PM

Penelope:

Not personally, but (s)he has always been courteous and knowledgeable here, as well, for the greatest part. No disrespect intended. I believe Abby's original remark would have passed by as a transient snipe except for someone else bringing it over to this forum and asking if it were "true" -- an illogical question -- and then all kinds of storm-in-a-teacup noise being started up.

I guess it takes all kinds, but idle carping is not the sort of communication this community is built on, really, although it shows up from time to time (usually from anonymous sources).

Glad to see you around!! Come back often.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,Penelope
Date: 27 May 02 - 02:43 PM

Folks, I thank you for your graciousness and your patience with me. It speaks very well of your group.

However, the guest information being shoved at me is WAAAY more than I want to know about Mudcat. In fact, I deeply regret mentioning it at all, because it wasn't the reason for my original post. That was to ask if there were some enmity between the two groups.

I guess I agree with what Jeri in the other thread said just now--it looks like someone took offense over something Abby said which was never intended as an insult, and brought it here and presented it as if it were, hoping to get a reaction. I'm really not interested in that sort of thing, so I'll just bow out now, thanks.

Nice visiting with you all!

Penelope Penelope

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Jeri
Date: 27 May 02 - 02:53 PM

Bye Penelope, and enjoy r.m.f. You also might want to look at uk.music.folk as they usually tend to nip trolls in the bud, so to speak, and there aren't very many flame wars there these days.

We do have a tendency to not recognise them, or let them go on and on here.

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 May 02 - 06:54 PM

I didn't see Abby's post, but she has always been one of the best around here. I would be very surprised if she meant it to be anything other than an observation.

Nice visiting with you, Penelope. Stop in and chat sometime.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,National Enquirer
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:11 PM

Big Mick performs sex change on Abby Sale!

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: GUEST,Penelope
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:26 AM

Thanks for the invitation to return. I'll do my best, but I'm afraid rmf is more my speed. Mudcat is just too much for me! What do you have, like a zillion posts per day? My eyes would never recover, and I wouldn't get anything done in my life if I was a regular around here!

Even though I'm a lurker, I do prefer the on-topic discussion forums, as places like Mudcat take a lot of time to read, sort through, and find things of interest. I usually only have a short time each day (and oft times not even that) for internet leisure surfing.

Jeri, thanks for the suggestion of ukmf, but musicially it isn't my thing, which is American folk like Arlo Guthrie, John Prine, Christine Lavin, Allison Kraus, Emmylou Harris, Bonnie Raitt, and Steve Goodman. I don't think they would be interested in folks like me joining their group, shall we say? ;-)

Nice visiting with you all.

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:33 PM

Will some kind soul please put me out of my misery and give me a blue clickie to Abby's famous post? I can't find it anywhere!!! I've looked at his recent messages via the forum search and can't see a thing that would upset anyone - in fact they all justify the high opinion he has earned among Mudcatters.

But Penelope refers to "Abby Sale's post here on Mudcat" and now everybody's talking about it and I can't find it and I feel left out and nobody loves me and WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

Subject: RE: If that's the way they're going to be...
From: Helen
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:16 PM

Just to set the record straight - it wasn't me who posted to the rec.music.folk. When I first ventured out into the big wide world of the Internet I had a look at that list (around 1996) but I haven't been back there since then because the type of music is not my preferred type.

I think that this is the thread we're referring to:

Duffers on the Mudcat Forum

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=47953&messages=103

Helen