BS: Damned cyclists

Subject: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 04:12 AM

Driving into London is now a nightmare - ridiculous 20mph speed limits, road humps galore and don't even get me started on notifiable cyclists.............London has been taken over by a infestation of cyclists who appear from nowhere riding very dangerously, 1000s of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 04:18 AM

I have driven in London precisely twice. I worked in Covent Garden for a while and got a company car with it. So my first drive was to get the car out of Central London and the second was to return it when I moved to another job.

Given the public transport systems in London, I would - personally - never choose to drive. To begin with, going a distance in London by tube is far faster. When I lived in Hatfield, for example, to get to Cecil Sharp House I would drive to and park at the end of the Underground line then travel in by public transport.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 05:07 AM

I can't see why you would want to drive in London - it's a great place to walk and has a far better public transport system than anywhere else in the UK. Amsterdam has the right policy for cars.

The problem we have with cyclist out here in the Yorkshire countryside is that they go out in packs, riding two or three abreast on narrow country lanes and not moving. I've nothing against cyclists as such - I'm one myself - but I do object to this antisocial behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 05:07 AM

I always park at Stanmore and get the Jubilee Line. Driving in London is for the terminally insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 05:13 AM

Unfortunately my wife is disabled and cannot walk for more than 5 minutes without severe back pain, so public transport is not an option for her. We can only get to gigs where we can park very close by, which we were able to do last night for Human Cargo at Kings Place. My wife spoke to a very helpful man in Islington Council regarding blue badge holder parking in that area - it does vary accross London of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 05:35 AM

theleveller, it's the same here in Norfolk. Large groups cycling two or three abreast, or close together in a line, so that overtaking them is difficult. Also, with the many tight bends on our single-lane country roads, I worry about a motorist suddenly coming upon them and mowing them down.
In Norwich they often just go straight through red lights. I've never understood this, as it's so dangerous for them.

I do know London quite well, and agree that trying to drive there is much harder than either walking or using public transport. And I should imagine that finding parking for one's car is a nightmare!

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:31 AM

Senoufou wrote: In Norwich they often just go straight through red lights. I've never understood this, as it's so dangerous for them.

The slower a cyclist moves the more wavy his path. The faster, the more stable. A cyclist is at his/her slowest as he/she starts to move. You don't have to be an urban cyclist for long to realise that the most dangerous thing you can do is start to cycle as a car alongside starts to move. You are weaving from side to side and the driver may not even be aware that you are there.

It's much safer to get as far in front of waiting traffic as possible when lights are on red. At UK traffic lights the stop line for cars is set well back from the junction. At some lights there is a green box in front of the white line for cyclists.

There are three advantages to waiting in front of cars at lights. First you can be seen, and second, by the time other traffic catches up you are past that first wobbly bit and moving in a straight line and third, you avoid being run down by cars turning left (in the UK) as you are trying to go straight ahead.

The safest place to wait is as far forward as possible. In this position the cyclist is able to see if these is any traffic approaching the lights in all directions. If there is no approaching traffic it is safest for the cyclist to start as soon as possible before other traffic moves.

Here in the UK it is not uncommon for pedestrians to cross a road when there is no approaching traffic. The motorists can't see what is coming around corners. The cyclist can see and makes decisions based on that. It is a sign of the lack of concern for the safety of cyclists that motorists complain about cyclists going through red lights. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: DaveRo
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

There are dammned motorists too. My son cycles to work in London. Last year he was knocked off his bike - cracked shoulderblade, dislocated collarbone, cracked ribs - and he was lucky. Several trips to hospital and many lost days at work. We cancelled our holiday to help look after our grandson. The (elderly) driver was convicted for careless driving but neither he nor we got compensation for his moment of inattention.

He's back on his bike now, but frequently he tweets as he did last week:

Another horrible close pass on the bike yesterday. Getting the clip off the camera today, I see they're also speeding and in a bus lane. How are these idiots allowed a license?

(He did send the clip to the police.)

So please drive carefully - and keep cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:44 AM

May I apologise for the 'Get over it' bit at the end of the last post. I've no wish to be confrontational over this. I used to commute by bike in Manchester before I retired. I just wish to point out that what other people see as dangerous is, in fact, a safer option.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:51 AM

There are dammned motorists too ...for his moment of inattention.

Last year I was send on a speed awareness course, having been clocked at 34 mph in a 30 mph zone. In legal terms, that was speeding. But in reality it was much more 'driving without due care and attention': I was simply unaware that the limit had dropped for a distance of some 300m from 40, to 30, then back up.

In truth, I am far more worried about that lack of attention than I am about few mph too high. Lack of attention is the killer in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: DaveRo
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:09 AM

I've done a speed awareness course - same reason. I found it interesting and valuable - I'd recommend it ;)

My employer was taken over in the '90s by an American company who wanted an IT business. They required everyone who had a company car to attend a safer-driving course - which was both classroom and on the road. How to spot hazards, where to position the car to avoid others' blind spots - that sort of thing. I still consciously use some of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:15 AM

DaveRo - sorry to read of your son's accident, I hope that he has fully recovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:25 AM

Well, going through a red light and crossing a junction is against the law apart from anything else. I don't think the Police would see it as 'safer'.

We're always extremely careful of cyclists when we're driving. My husband overtakes them only when he has a good,long view ahead, and gives them a very wide berth.

But of course, here we get horses being ridden or driven, mad swans walking down the middle of the road with their cygnets, huge agricultural machinery (combine harvesters and so on) massive animal feed trucks and goodness knows what else. So we always 'proceed with caution' while trying not to poodle along annoying the folk behind us.

Sorry to hear about your son's accident DaveRo. Nasty thing to have happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:36 AM

I once described Lundun(innit) as "rush day". To which my converstionalist opined "rush week!"

The traffic is worse than when that conversation occurred.

The only thing worse than cyclists is impatient motorists who give them a wide berth, regardless of oncoming traffic. It is hard to use a bicycle as a murder weapon. Cars - ideally suited and used with threats ever bloody day! By far too many motorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM

Well I commuted to work on my bike in London for years. I worked in Walthamstow and a couple of miles of each ride involved either the North Circular or the hellish road up to Chingford past the old dog track from the Crooked Billet roundabout. I never had altercations with motorists. The keys to being safe in city traffic are to give yourself space (no riding in the gutter), don't allow motorists to overtake if there isn't room, take off from traffic lights as fast as you can (making sure that motorists also waiting for the lights can see you) and to move fast. Fast is safe on a bike. You need to practise looking behind without wobbling. You shouldn't break the law at traffic lights. If you face a long wait, or if the junction is staggered or complex, you can always dismount and walk your bike across at pedestrian signals. There's no shame in it. If you are being reasonable and staying within the law but drivers still get cross with you, that's their problem. They are bring a hundred times less environmentally friendly than you so you have the moral high ground. But always know when it's just best to get out of the way. And I never, ever wore Lycra. My Sam Brown belt was always with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 10:43 AM

Where I live the lycra louts insist on riding two or three abreast on narrow mountain roads. They act as though they own the road. A pox be upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 11:02 AM

Stanron, on behalf of my cycling husband-- THANK YOU.

I'm reminded that most cyclists have driven cars and therefore understand the world and the mindset of the driver. Apparently far fewer drivers have logged many hours in the saddle, dodging the lethal weapons which are automobiles. So of course, misunderstanding runs rampant.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 11:09 AM

The Tour de Yorkshire seems to have given club cyclists the idea that they have the right to race or practice racing on the public roads whenever they feel like it. I was driving through our local small town recently, down a narrow street with cars parked each side and only room for one-way traffic, driving below the 20 mph speed limit, when a gang or them decided to overtake me on both sides of the car and when I objected they gave me various obscene signs.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 11:19 AM

As a motorist I have a responsibility to drive carefully aware of other road users, I did this in my motorcycling days as I was aware that some drivers are oblivious of two wheeled transport.

However ........ responsibility works two ways ....... the number of stupid actions I have seen by cyclists is truly astonishing.

This week alone I have seen three cyclists riding down the wrong way down a one way road. This in the middle of a small but busy town.

On one occasion the owner of the bike hire shop was even watching him!!

Beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 02:03 PM

It's my reasonable educated guess that many of those irresponsable inconsiderate complete chopes
who are a nuisance and hazard on bikes,
are exactly the same, but far more lethal to other road users, when they drive cars...

As a lifelong cyclist until arthritis buggered my feet and knees,
I laugh at ludicrous lycra and uncomfortable [false sense of safety] helmets...

What sort of dick pays over 2 grand for a bike, and hundreds of quid for the full lycra fancy dress,
to pretend to be a champion race cyclist on dry weather weekends...???

The sort with a fancy company car, and 4 wheel drive for the mrs to do the school run and tescos.........???

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 03:58 PM

My husband wore his Lycra long shorts and an England football top to the supermarket today. He has very well-developed muscles and looks extremely tasty in spite of his age.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:00 PM

The only trouble with cycling is all the damn cars in the way.

What are those selfish swine doing using the last drops of our world's precious fossil fuel to drag their unfit bodies around? (I except those who are disabled.)

As for "cycling two and three abreast", it's very easy to imagine that people are cycling three abreast when in fact it's a perfectly legal two. And it's much safer for drivers if people cycle side-by-side than if they cycle in a single line.

A lot of places are now allowing cyclists to go through red lights when it's safe to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 06:34 PM

I'm very surprised to hear that Thompson. Which places are those? Because I thought that ALL vehicles had to obey traffic light signals, under the Road Traffic Act 1988 and the Traffic Lights Directions & Regulations 2002.

And I may be elderly but I can still count, and we've often seen three cyclists abreast around here.

Living as we do in the sticks, far from any town or shops, we jolly well have to use a car, especially to transport all our groceries. There is no bus service at all anywhere near our village.

We are careful for the lives and safety of all road users, including cyclists. It would be nice if they had the same respect for us motorists too.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:45 PM

Who started this popularist antagonistic cyclists versus drivers bollocks.. was it Clarkson...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 07:46 PM

we all want to get home safe and alive...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 03:28 AM

given club cyclists the idea that they have the right to race or practice racing on the public roads whenever they feel like it.

Hmmmmm - ever driven in a big city? Let alone Lundun (innit?). Not just the taxis, or whitevanmamn, about 20% of cars too - they know where they are going and know the law. They ignore one of those. And then there are the pimped-up cars, at least you can spot them unless they are tail-gating.

Hmm ever driven on rural side roads? - same scenario with 20% of the width!

To brandish all drivers is extreme, but when you don't know their brand - best to assume they are the 20%** until proven otherwise.

** make that 50% for BMWs

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM

The chief hazards of cycling are drains sunk 3 inches into the road surface and broken glass which means you've either got to stop or swerve out potentially into the path of twatwagon drivers who think 3 centimetres is a good enough clearance.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 05:46 AM

Which is why I said not to ride in the gutter. By the way, Mr Red (may I call you Eric The?), make that 82.5% for Volvo drivers and 88.9% for Audi drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

Well, this Audi driver (and ex-cyclist) pulls right out to overtake cyclists, when it's safe to do so - and slows to a complete crawl in the presence of horses.

Happy to be in the 10.1%...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:44 AM

That would be 11.1%, Will. I'm more generous than you think...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: goatfell
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:53 AM

It would be a better place if drivers would slow don and obey the rules of the road instead of trying to kill cyclists well some drivers

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: goatfell
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:59 AM

There are some drivers and cyclist that they own the road but they don’t as I’m a cyclist myself

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:37 AM

I've never tried to kill a cyclist on the roads (or anyone else, for that matter). I have, however, seen plenty of cyclists trying to kill themselves on the roads, and my dog and I when they come flying up behind us on footpaths with no 'audible warning of approach' fitted to their death-trap machines the way they are required by the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:39 AM

Senoufou, this piece on red lights is from three years ago, I think a lot more cities have followed through now; the concept is called the Idaho stop.

The reason for someone on a bicycle going through a red light is quite different, usually, from the reason someone in a car does it, and the dangers are radically different.

More women on bicycles are killed by trucks, because women typically obey red lights; if a woman on a bicycle sees a truck moving up beside her, she'll stay where she is, and move off when the lights change. A proportion of truckers will ignore their blind spot and turn, and will crush the woman to death.

Men on bicycles are more likely to calculate the risk of going through the lights to get away from motorised traffic, and choose going through when it's clear, so they are less likely to be "T-boned" by turning cars, vans, buses or trucks.

When drivers go through stop lights it's for a different reason: they "catch the lights" by whizzing through - often nose-to-tail in a stream of several cars - after the light has turned red. This is really dangerous, because people who are coming the other way - on bikes, in cars, etc - say quite logically "Oh, goody, the light is green, I can go through now", only to be confronted by a stream of fast traffic, often turning.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 10:02 AM

I used to cycle in London back in the 60s before there were any cycle lanes. Stayed alive by keeping off main roads and finding alternative routes through back streets.

And my daughter cycles a lot around Edinburgh: she was knocked off her bike by a back seat car passenger opening his car door without checking behind first. The car in question was illegally parked in an active bus lane! Hardly the cyclist's fault! Fortunately no serious injuries beyond a few bumps and bruises and a skinned finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 10:36 AM

The worst offenders when we drove home from London were a number of cyclists with no lights who appear from nowhere on the inside - impossible to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 05:28 PM

Raggytash's
three cyclist going the wrong way down a one way street

is decidedly disconcerting.

Some towns do actually have this officially but it has to be really well marked, or it feels "wrong".
> 2nd pic here
https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/contraflow-bus-system.html

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:38 AM

"Lack of attention is the killer in the end." Indeed. "Speed kills" used to be the slogan. True enough, but it doesn't cause accidents. What causes accidents is stupidity, inattention, driving inappropriately for the conditions. You can be 10 mph under the speed limit & still be driving far too fast.

And Stanron, one of Sen's later comments confirms what I thought when I read your first post - you completely missed the point when composing your lecture! ;-) The issue isn't cyclists who get themselves to the front of a queue; I don't think any reasonable person objects to that, motorist or not. They may go in front of a red light to do so, but they still stop & wait for it to change. Indeed, an increasing number of lights now have a "cyclist box" painted on the road for them behind the light, but in front of vehicles. Officially, they're termed "Advanced Stop Lines", I believe.

But there are many cyclists who simply ride as though red lights don't exist or don't apply to them & don't stop. That's an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM

I counted 24 cyclists who defiantly rode over red lights last Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 08:17 AM

A petrolheaded "Top Gear" culture of hostility towards cyclists leads to more injured and dead cyclists...
A knock on effect is more pedestrians injured on pavements
as a generation of unskilled clueless young adult bike riders
have grown up too frightened to cycle on roads...

If the cycling proficiency test still exists [passed mine at school - age 11]
I'd sincerely hope it now teaches essential road survival strategies...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 08:44 AM

an inevitable solution...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 08:50 AM

Cyclists should be taxed and insured and Lycra should have a VAT rate of 10,000%

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:18 AM

LOL, pfr, I love that. I've fantasized about having a grenade launcher mounted to my handlebars for retaliation whenever a drunken springbreaker or a rubbernecking snowbird swerved into the bike lane and came within a fraction of an inch of knocking me ass
over tea kettle.
I don't understand this aversion some folks here have to spandex (or lyrca). On a long bike ride you wouldn't want to wear anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM

I've done a hundred-mile bike ride and a four-day, 320-mile trip from Radcliffe to Bude and cycled 6000 miles a year with ordinary trainers-plus-toeclips-and-cages, baggy cycling shorts and cotton t-shirts, not a hint of Lycra in sight, sitting on my well-oiled Brooks B17 leather saddle. In the good old days, I hasten to add. When you get off your bike to go into a shop (walking normally) you look like a normal human being. I can absolutely tell you that Lycra is not a cycling essential unless you're some kind of racing nut.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:47 AM

You must have a tougher hide than me Steve because I won't be without spandex shorts for any ride that's gonna last more than about an hour.
One of the dumbest things I ever did was leaving a well broken-in Brooks saddle on a Fontan when I traded it in for a new Fuji which had a leather seat which never got right no matter how much I worked it over.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:53 AM

I wore/still wear baggy cycling shorts with a chamois insert. Occasionally, the girls you meet coming head-on get a glimpse of a bit more than they bargained for, but there's nothing like proper ventilation...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:58 AM

Beware of "Upshorts".

It wasn't a Fontan it was a Gitane.

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

I hadn't thought of that. Those head cameras upshorting me as I issue my unwary, cheery "hellos" to the cycling ladies...

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:13 AM

I grew up with cycling as our family's only privately owned form of transport...

[an uncle on the estate did drive a transit van for dodgy dealings
out in the countryside...]

So I've only ever cycled in my normal day to day clothing...

In my 20s I even took on my dad's old national service demob long overcoat, and cycle clips...

At 49 I was cycling in baggy cotton trousers and steel toe cap boots,
and still beating lycra clad wannabes
on short sprint race challenges from traffic lights...

That was a deliberate defiant 2 finger salute to youth and faddish bike culture fashions...

My secret weapon was core body and leg muscle built over years of gym weight training..
and a lifetime cycling for transport rather than weekend sport & lycra fashion parades......

Subject: RE: BS: Damned cyclists
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:15 AM

btw... I'm still googling for any photos of bike wheels with fitted chariot scythe blades..