BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

" because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in. "

My great-grandmother emigrated to America from Sicily in 1904. She died in 1968. She never spoke a word of English.

I don't think it's all that uncommon for the first generation of immigrants to be quite insular and not integrate all that well. It isn't really as easy and straightforward as "If I went to live in France, I'd learn French. If I went to live in Spain, I'd learn Spanish, etc...I think it would be arrogant and spoilt brattish of me to assume that *they* should learn *my* language." There are all kinds of issues around culture, education, the type of society one has emigrated from, etc. There's a big difference between a Brit, say, buying a gite or a Tuscan farmhouse and having the cultural sophistication and confidence to mix happily with the locals; or someone from what may well be an impoverished, small rural community where both education and opportunities to engage with the wider world have been limited. That's the kind of environment my great-grandparents came from. The isolation my nona would have felt was compounded by the hostility she experienced from white Americans, so she tended to "stick with her own", and her social circle was consequently drawn from other Sicilian immigrants: friends and family, and later on her 9 children, their children and grandchildren.

To be honest, I don't imagine that the situation is all that different for many immigrant communities today - it is often fear, and adherence to the familiar, and maybe a bit of hostility (perceived or real)from the outside, which drives insularity. That's the reason that, even now, you get ethnically-divided "neighbourhoods" in cities and towns. The important thing to understand is what happens AFTER that first generation: my grandmother and her sisters and brothers were Italian/American, but very much American. People do integrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:16 PM

"But imagine how you'd feel if the burger incident happened every single day, over and over and over, because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in. "

Sorry, but your statement is flawed. You are basing it on an assumption that the modern way of thinking is NOT to learn the main language of the country you choose to live in. I don't buy that and I would love to see concrete evidence to the contrary, besides some personal annecdotes.

You asked what would happen if the Burger King incident happened every day.   One of two things - either a) I would probably go elsewhere and/or b) Burger King would lose clientele.    The fact is, I have been there before and dealt with people who have a limited grasp of the language. I really do not have an issue with them, my orders are usually right.   The issue is, this is BURGER KINGS issue - not mine, not my countries.   

Lizzie, as you noted, you were generalizing in your note. Generalizing leads to sterotyping and false images.   While he hasn't admitted it, Bill's incident at the supermarket ended with the individual helping solve the problem and getting Bill the service he needs.   Yet the fact that there was a language barrier gives Bill cause for annoyance - and believe me, I understand why.   Yet in the end, it is how we solve our problems and how we go forward. The impression that someone does not want to learn the language is a HUGE assumption, and other than a group of altercockers sitting around moaning about changes in society, I do not see the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:32 PM

And what about the case of the bangladeshi man with a heart problem who might be trying to tell the paramedic that his pills are in his inside pocket but can't and so dies?

A society does require a basic level of communication to function usefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Monique
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

I agree with Lizzie about learning the language of the country you live in. I'm trying to teach literacy and French to Moroccan and Turkish ladies and they all want to learn how to call the emergency services, how to make an appointment at the doctor's or the dentist's and I insist on the fact that they must make themselves understandable. What if they're wounded in an accident and unable to give their relatives' names and addresses properly? What if they need to call the fire brigade? We've been practicing and you can't imagine how many times their houses would have burnt down because they couldn't say their address. How do they manage to explain what kind of pain they feel and how long it's been lasting? How do they communicate with their children's teachers? Should they stay like ever-lasting children, unable to manage by themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

Well, my great, great grandfather left Spain and settled in Cardiff. Not a clue whether he spoke English, Welsh, or Spanish. Not a clue whether he danced Flamenco a la Spain or a la Belgium. (see other thread) His descendants are still in Cardiff and other parts of Wales, a swarthy looking bunch of Spanish Welshmen if ever there was! I have his name in mine, as does my mother and her brothers, as did my grandparents. I doubt he was intimidated though, rather more of the intimidating was Antonio, I'd expect, having heard about some of his descendants. :0)

And yes, lox...I agree about the medical scenario you've painted there. I actually wrote something similar, but rubbed it out again, as mine was about giving birth, so I didn't want to put anyone off their tea and toast..but it was in similar circumstances, no interpreter available, as there literally weren't enough to go round...and a woman who can't understand what her doctors and nurses are saying to her, and vice versa. Very frightening.

I worked with many patients from the Middle East, back in the 70s and 80s. I understand hugely that you can converse with people with smiles and hands and laughter and facial expressions, but at times it was so hard to try and get patients to understand what was happening to them, what *exactly* was wrong with them. If an interpreter wasn't able to be with the patient, you were scuppered, and operations had to wait until someone from one of the Arab Embassies/Health Offices was available to help you out. Heck, it's scary enough having surgery when you speak the same language, but in a different country, a very different culture, then it can be terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

I agree Lizzie in such situations you have exemplfied in your recent post above ... but I disagree we need a common language to become a "one people"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:00 PM

I am not trying to say that a basic degree of language skills wouldn't be helpful. My great-grandmother lived on a farm her whole life, and always had one of her children or her husband (who did speak English) to interpret for her. It may not have been an ideal situation, but she looked after her family, and they paid their taxes, and contributed a lot to their local (Sicilian) community.

The point I am making is twofold: firstly, this is not a new situation, and has probably existed as long as immigration itself; secondly, that maybe a bit of empathy might be in order when trying to understand WHY people don't learn the language or integrate very well; this is usually particularly true for women, who tend to find themselves more isolated with their lives revolving around the home. I'm speaking also from my more recent experiences in Leicester, working with women from the Pakestani and Bangladeshi communities. For them, it wasn't as easy as simply having the common courtesy to learn the language; there were huge social and cultural issues as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

Of course, those scenarios could happen to ANYONE who travels to a foreign country where they do not learn the language. Medical emergenices for those who have handicaps and cannot communicate are equally horrifying. If you are unconscious, the same issues.

I don't think anyone is arguing that people who live in a country would probably find life easier if they learn the "native" tongue, but I would draw the line at having my government enforce a rule to make it the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

So we're agreed, both sides of the argument are valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

"So we're agreed, both sides of the argument are valid. "

It depends what "arguement" you are having. Frankly, I thought we were having a discussion. If it were an argument, I would have said something about nasty about your mother and her relationship with the local football team!!   

If you are asking me if there should be an "official" language, the answer is no - there is no valid reason to have one.

If you are asking me if people should learn the popular language of the country in which they live, I agree that all attempts should be made to learn it.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:28 PM

Depends on your definition of argument.

If you mean shouting match then no.

If you mean the advancement of contrasting viewpoints to establish a better understanding then yes.

Or we can call it a discussion - I don't mind - as long as we understand each other.

It seems we agree anyway.

Though I would have to ask, if there is no "official" language, then what do we do about roadsigns?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:30 PM

Ron ... when the Hispanic populace of the United States becomes the majority ... would you say Spanish would then become the popular language?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:38 PM

Road signs...it always comes down to road signs...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:40 PM

or fast food outlets, grocery checkouts.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM

bill, I was reminded of this...

bilingual road signs cause accidents?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM

Oh my god ... there is no end to this can of worms!

In true Mudcat tradition the conversation has landed slap bang in the middle of sectarianism.

Then again, why not - it is relevant in more ways than one I suppose.

Have fun - I'm off to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:25 PM

Hi Kids: Huh? Well. I suppose it all depends on the circumstances...

Reminds me of the time when the Lone Ranger and Tonto were surrounded by 5000 blood thirsty Apaches. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "Well, old friend, I guess this looks like we're finished..."

Tonto replies, "What do you mean WE?, white man..."

O.K., O.K. so the historical references are somewhat blurred. And those in the know realize that I "borrowed" that joke from some unsung comedian. Not like most of you have never used other people's material without credit. Yeesh. You know how you are...
BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:49 PM

Here's my response to GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz's "joke":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsYRxoQtCbo&feature=related

Native people (" Americans")
added to YouTube by thelight101 on October 01, 2006

This Discovery Channel video has the tags:
Native history people Indians tribute photo original crazy horse Cherokee Chief father art dancing tribal

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:55 PM

"Though I would have to ask, if there is no "official" language, then what do we do about roadsigns? "

Same as we have always done without an official language.

"when the Hispanic populace of the United States becomes the majority ... would you say Spanish would then become the popular language?"

IF that is the language that the majority of people speak, it would be the popular language.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:58 PM

keep in mind that it is estimated that only 10% of the population speaks Spanish. There is a difference between a Hispanic background and speaking Spanish as a native tongue.


"If you mean the advancement of contrasting viewpoints to establish a better understanding then yes."
That's not an arguement

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:00 PM

I usually look forward to reading Bob Ryszkiewicz's Mudcat post and if he were a Mudcat member, I probably would have sent him a pm about his message. But since Bob has chosen not to join Mudcat even though he posts here quite often, I felt the need to respond to his post on this thread. Fwiw, I don't think that Bob's borrowed joke is appropriate in the context of a serious discussion about cultural heritage or elsewhere. I'm aware that some folks may disagree with my opinion about this, and that's on them.

And for those who think that I don't have a sense of humor {humour}-about these kind of topics, you're absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:14 PM

Ron .... I also agree ... when Spanish becomes the majority, than that is the most popular language .... as I mentioned above, cultures are constantly evolving.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:16 PM

Absolutely. "Popular" and "official" are still two separate terms and do not mean the same thing.   If we evolve into a nation where Spanish is the prevelant language, I would still say that we do not have an "official" language.    The only change is that advertisers would pay more attention to their market.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:18 PM

Yes Azizi. I know that part too. Some bad things were done to Native People. But that joke surfaced in a much more innocent time(the fifties, I think) where guys like Milton Berle and Red Skelton were on stage. You can twist any topic and look at the dark side of things if you want. Can we not laugh at our foibles from time to time?

I happen to be a big fan of Indian Art and Culture. In fact, my earliest childhood memories of being here in Canada were of being in Caugnawaga(hope I spelled it right, but I think not) and having my picture taken with an "Indian Princess" in front of a teepee. She was beautiful. What a thrill and one of my fondest memories. I mean, when you're a kid and you get to meet a real Indian Princess.. WOW. I was, I think, 7. My Dad and I would go into the woods and build birch-bark canoes, light fires and cook outdoors. Still have a tattered piece of the beaded pincushion we got there. The beaded part is still good, the rest worn away after over 50 years of use. The Great Spirit has been with me..

Respect and Love to All...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:25 PM

I agree with Amos and others who think we need a common language. We need a common language as one of the glues that binds the country. This common language should be required for legal and civic activities.

I live in a community where there is a large proportion of Armenians and Koreans, and, not so many Mexicans, plus assorted Chinese, Indian and Thai. Many have been here for a long time, and many are citizens. The main thoroughfare is rife with signage in those languages, and, fortunately, English. I have my car serviced in Iran (Armenian), my wife has her hair cut in Korea, our house is cleaned bi-weekly in Mexico, and I get my (almost) daily donut from Thailand ...they all are recent immigrants and they all speak English well enough to conduct business, and even more. What they speak when they're at home or with their confreres, I don't care.

When Israel was absorbing the thousands of displaced European Jews in the late 1940s, the first thing they did was give them a crash course in the Hebrew language--most of them spoke Yiddish and the language of their country of origin, but could only read Hebrew for prayer without necessarily understanding what they actually sounded out, and maybe not even that. Israelis knew they needed a common language to integrate these immigrants, and not a polyglot of European languages mucking things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:35 PM

Bob, I'd have more to say to you about your last comment if I could private message you. But I won't since I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM

And remember, you are talking to a guy with Polish Heritage. Who among you has not heard or used a "Polish Joke"? You know, those "bowling shirts" and "Polka" jokes. Come on now...Fess up. How could you do such a thing to the same people who went up against tanks with swords while riding horses? And we cannot forget Pope Jean Paul II... Bless......As long as we can laugh WITH each other, and not AT each other, we should be fine...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:42 PM

Hang in there Azizi...Smile once in a while...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:44 PM

Israel is a country that basically restrict immigration to a people of a common religion ... it is unique in that aspect .... most other countries in the world today do not have restricted immigration policies as such ... case in point the country's of the European Common Union ... bascally it's members now have an open borders policy. People from these countries now migrate freely amongst each other ... language is not a barrier ... a hodgpodge of European languages and things are not getting things mucked up. Hell, they even have a common currency.

Cultures keep evolving ... governments cannot mandate an official language .... it's a new world out there.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

biLL-

I don't believe that your comment about the religious component of Israelis invalidates my point. They did not teach Hebrew for religious reasons, but for civic reasons.

While the European Union, may have less restrictive immigration policies, and I'm not sure that's entirely true...I'll check with my son...I would be interested in the immigration policies of Asian, Latin American and African countries before I could accept your premise.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

I see a lot has happened since I had to go tend to 'life'...ah, well...let me note a couple of things...


" While he hasn't admitted it, Bill's incident at the supermarket ended with the individual helping solve the problem and getting Bill the service he needs."

Admit?? There is little to admit....It is true that I got my groceries, but it required her to perform the operations for me! ....it is NOT true that I got what I needed- information about why the automated system didn't work, or more accurately, why *I* couldn't make it work. She could not frame a sentence and pronounce the words to tell me of MY presumed error, so that *I* could do it correctly and thus ease both our lives. Indeed, I said that *I* gave up using the auto-check/scan lanes (at least for now) BECAUSE I dread dealing with learning the button-pushing order...and dread having her try to explain it.

And, Ron, the first part of your post of 2:56PM is one long 'straw man' (the paragraph after "Let's cut to the chase.") You knock down claims no one is making! You invent scenarios that are not suggested, then explain how terrible they are!

Then: You end with more slogans:

"Our country was built by immigrants, and our current crop of diverse cultures continue to expand on those ideals. It is one thing to encourage communication, it is another to alter our freedoms."

which ignores my suggestion that changing times need changed approaches and adaptation to different demographics....Not wholesale dismemberment of the Constitution, as you seem to think I am advocating, but real, honest, practical OPEN discussion of what will make this country better for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:23 PM

JotSC ... citizens of the member countries of the European Common Union can immigrate amongst themselves ... my wife was on business last May to Portugal and she was astounded by the many different European workers in the office, all working cohesively amongst one another ... broken Portugese, broken English, broken Danish etc ... the business functions amazingly. If you have ever resided for a while in a foreign country ... you learn the basics of that county's language to get by as needed very quickly.

My son taught English in South Korea for 2 years ... within a couple of months he knew enough Korean to get by, knew enough to know when he was being taken advantage of, knew enough to visit Koreans homes to communicate with new found friends and their families.

In regards to Israel ... I saw a documentry recently which was on the difficulty of new immigrants learning Hebrew ... a majority cannot pass the mandatory courses, many get frustrated and leave.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:42 PM

"You knock down claims no one is making!"

That is not true.

Of course no one brought those claims up here in this discussion, but if you follow the story of the movement for "official language", these are exactly the claims being made. These are exactly the reasons why this has been shot down in practially every session of congress. Look it up. Check what the ACLU has been fighting for.

Bill, you only made ONE suggestion that I saw - an official language. That is not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:37 AM

One of the funniest (ha ha funny) I ever overheard was between a young Japanese woman and a young Frenchman, each in this country only a matter of months, trying to communicate in English with each other.

English was not my first language- I spoke a dialect of German. Given my experience I tend not to believe in the need for teaching in the little kid's language. I picked it up painlessly and swiftly.

I have/had a friend who had grown up the same as I and our daughters were born three weeks apart. My friend spoke the dialect to her daughter, I did not to my daughter.

When my daughter was three, I said something to her in the dialect and she returned, I'm not Wilma Anne, you know.

Even at that age she was aware of different languages.

I once worked at a resort where a good many of the staff were from other countries (Note the Japanese woman and the Frenchman). Two men were from Germany, one friend was an Americanized German and then there was me.

The only way all four of us could speak to each other in German was to resort to 'high' German. Our dialects were too different.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:20 AM

OK, a question, perhaps a tricky one.

Do you think the culture of the main nation should come first in that country, or, do you feel that all cultures should be equal and the main nation should have no priority in anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:11 AM

The official language debate would be better served i think if it were clearly made specific to the USA.

It doesn't seem unfair to me to accept that the official language og France is French, or that the Official language of England is English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:21 AM

Australia is a multicultural country. Second and third generation migrants become fluent in the dominant language and adopt many of the attitudes of the dominant cultures, while their elders remain strongly identified with their country of birth. In exchange, the broader group adjusts, reflecting the greater diversity of food, art, fashion, music and thought.

Cultural diversity can be painted as a positive or a negative by politicians. In Australia we voted out a racist government and I'm relieved to see the last of them.

Geneticist have proven that genetic diversity brings healthier, smarter kids, and creates a smarter, healthier society.

Many personal qualities vary according to cultural background, and cannot be discarded as if they were a pair of old socks.

Jeanne Tsai, an assistant professor of psychology at Stanford University, has done extensive research into the impact of culture on personality. It's interesting work and shows that despite wider social conditioning, ethnic groups hang on to psychological characteristics that reflect their preferred philosophies.

Now, if I were determining what all other people should do and think, I'd demand that the whole population should wear pink and read The Wee Book of Calvin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM

Amos, your premise is valid. In that same light, replace the cartoons, and 'Animal House', in your analogy, with misinformation in our 'news media' and a constant bombardment of commercials. What do you get? Reality?? 'Liberals'??? Neo-Cons??? Culture???????? or a mislead public who is too dizzy to think straight?
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Never mind the inherent multi-culturalism of any given society (irrespective of what balderdash Lizzie, WAV, or the BNP have to say on the matter), we are each and every one of us multi-cultural in terms of the influences that have defined and inspired every last damn thing of what we are. Our true cultural heritage is our subjective uniqueness which arises directly from how it was both acquired and perceived in the first place - and, indeed, continues to be enriched & inspired throughout our lives. It is this richness of idiosyncratic psycho-cultural complexities we ought to be celebrating - without sacrificing the essential individuality and uniqueness of that experience to a bunch of risible clichés which, according to their perpetrators, not only represent an overarching yet entiely bogus English Culture, but one we are somehow in danger of losing, giving rise to such specious bullshit as:

'ROOTS'is an inspirational song about England, about all that we have lost, which we have allowed ourselves to lose, through our apathy. It's very much about our loss of identity as well, for it seems that as a nation, we no longer seem to know who we truly are anymore. (from the Albion Heart myspace page)

As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers. (from Walkaboutsverse)

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago. (from the BNP Mission Statement)

*

My own personal Cultural Heritage is more important to me than any faux-Englishness which has fuck all to do with my life and I dare say the vast majority of people living in England today, each of whom have their own unique and equally valid experience as individual and cultural human beings. For the record, here is a catalogue of my own Cultural Heritage from my own Myspace Page - entirely subjective, and by no means comprehensive:

Medieval Art in general; English Misericords; Eccliastical Foliate Heads; The Herefordshire School of Romanesque Sculpture; Traditional Folk & Ethnomusicology; The Max Hunter Archive of Folk Song ; Le Sun Ra; Duke Ellington; Glen Sweeney; Richard Coff; Paul Minns; Third Ear Band; Peter Bellamy; Jordi Savall; Hesperion XX / XXI; Montseratt Figueras; Rene Clemencic; Rene Zosso; Oor Wullie; The Broons; Desperate Dan; Dudley D. Watkins; Anne Osnowycz; The Macclesfield Psalter; The Manband; Deke Leonard; Micky Jones; Martin Ace; Clive 'Clint' John; The Global Village Trucking Company; Robert Wyatt era Soft Machine; Robert Wyatt; Amazing Blondel; The Luttrel Psalter; Dave Cousins; Strawbs; Can; Henry Purcell; William Lawes; Gregorio Paniagua; Atrium Musicae de Madrid; Back Door; Spitting on a Roast; Les Baxter; Ron Baxter; Biddy Baxter; The Rasputin Reekers; Piobaireachd; Seamus Ennis; The Fall; Mark E. Smith; Daevid Allen; Christian Vander; Will Hay; Stan Laurel; Oliver 'Babe' Hardy; The Stone Tape; Magma; Rahsaan Roland Kirk; Frank Zappa; M R James; Karl Marx; Grouch Marx; Harpo Marx; Chico Marx; Zeppo Marx; Joy Division; New Order; Martin Denny; Ennio Morricone; Harry Partch; Jim Eldon; Don Cherry; Hatfield and the North; Matching Mole; Gong; The Nonesuch Explorer Series; Art Ensemble of Chicago; Ken Hyder's Talisker; Moondog; Davie Stewart; Dragon Ash; Groundhogs; Tony (T.S.) McPhee; Shirley & Dolly Collins; John Coltrane; Val Doonican; Rolf Harris; Scott Walker; Egg; Roger Nicholson; Jake Walton; Sarah Clitheroe; Hermione Harvestman; Sundog; Dr Strangely Strange; Incredible String Band; Robin Williamson; Duncan Williamson; Malicorne; Gabriel Yacoub; Alan Stivell; Lee Scratch Perry; Augustus Pablo; Burning Spear; Linton Kwesi Johnson; Joan Miro; Marc Chagall; Paul Klee; Edward Gorey; John William Waterhouse; Derek Bailey; Evan Parker; Han Bennink; Martin Carthy; The Watersons; Clamp;

I take this on board, and more besides, and continue to do so in the sense of a cultural wonderment that in no fucking way am I ever in danger of losing. The same is true of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

It's the same process--debasing and degradation of the human mind by feeding it junk data. And, I suppose, never training it in data analysis.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: 3refs
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:00 AM

In 1969, following the recommendations in the report published by the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, the Parliament of Canada adopted the first Official Languages Act. This act recognized English and French as the official languages of all federal institutions in Canada.

The province of Quebec has taken this to the next level with their own laws. All signs must be in French, or if bilingual, French must be larger(or more predominate)than English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM

"Do you think the culture of the main nation should come first in that country, or, do you feel that all cultures should be equal and the main nation should have no priority in anything?
"

I'm having a hard time grasping what that is supposed to mean. Culture coming first for what? A better spot on line? A good table at the restaurant? Discounts?

I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for - culture is culture. Everything wraps itself into it. People develop their own. Some people enjoy Animal House and see different reasons for watching it. Live and let live.

Where is the competition and what is the prize?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

"The province of Quebec has taken this to the next level with their own laws."

Not sure what you mean by "the next level" - the next level of what?

For the benefit of non-Canucks: the thinking among those who support the (pro-French-)language laws in Quebec is that the French language in Quebec needs special protection due to its minority status in a sea of North American English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

"Never mind the inherent multi-culturalism of any given society (irrespective of what balderdash Lizzie, WAV, or the BNP have to say on the matter)"

You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character.

Got it? Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

Somewhere along the way, someone got the idea that I am in favor of some sort of official language--I'm not. Most everyone who immigrates to this country realizes that in order to benefit from living here, they need English, and most learn it surprisingly quickly. I think we should leave it like that.

My neighbor and I were chatting the other day, and she mentioned that four years ago, she spoke no English. She teaches Calculus and such things at a local institution of higher learning, and expresses herself with the subtlety and nuance that one expects of someone with an advanced degree. It seemed odd to think that there was ever a time she couldn't speak English.

The kids speak English like the Americans that they are. It is very jarring to hear them exchange occasional sentences in equally good Russian.

Though many say that Americans don't know any language but English, in point of fact, as I pointed out above, there are a great many American homes where English is not the primary language. Estimates run to about 20%.

Often, the immigrant"s children speak English better than their parents, and take on a lot of the day to day family responsibilities at an early age. For them, letting go of the old language is important, because it meant the family had finally become assimilated--Their kids often have to learn the old language as adults, because the parents stopped using it in the home as soon as it was possible.

My favorite example here is Yiddish--in living memory, there were large districts in many major American cities where all business and social life was conducted in Yiddish--now it's a dead language.

So if any of you are worried about America becoming a Spanish speaking nation, it ain't gonna happen--the kids all speak English.   Too bad, in a way, because Spanish is one of the best languages--

PS-As to the quilt, I finally got it back, as well as the five dollars or so that I paid up front for the repairs in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

From me:

"You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character."

Right, (Insane Beard), I've got who you are now, from your Myspace page. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

In North Wales, most things are in...er..Welsh. I'm not sure how many of the Welsh themselves actually understand the signs. Even the graffiti's in Welsh. I bought a Welsh/English dictionary, just so I could find out what it said, as I kept seeing the same thing over and over..

It was about the English. :0) Uh Oh...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM

" Most everyone who immigrates to this country realizes that in order to benefit from living here, they need English, and most learn it surprisingly quickly. I think we should leave it like that. "

Precisely!!!   Water finds it's own level, attempts to divert it usually won't work.    I honestly believe that the issues that were brought up here might be happening more frequently then they were 10 or 20 years ago, but it is not a unique situation. It is unfair to categorize anyone who speaks a different language as "not wanting to learn" the language as generalizations are usually wrong too.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character

I'm not connecting you with the BNP, Lizzie - just pointing out that they, like you and Walkaboutsverse, hold similarly simplistic views about the vulnerability and preciousness of certain aspects of English Culture which (along with the vulnerability and preciousness of same) I personally regard as balderdash.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

Can someone explain, in a paragraph or less, exactly what the concern is about "losing" English culture? Specifically, WHAT is in danger of being lost?