BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 May 08 - 08:13 AM

Maybe it is to keep an eye on Ken. All I said, am saying, is that I don't know...and neither do you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Phil
Date: 04 May 08 - 11:03 AM

Who would vote for a clown who charged you £25 a day to drive to work. Livingstone is a charlatan, end of story. Goodbye Red Ken, goodbye Gormless Gordon. Here comes a new start, at last.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:07 PM

At last a carefully thought out contribution deep in the understanding of the problems facing London and the country at large and even the world

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 08 - 12:26 PM

Under the proposed changes to the congestion charge, high emissions vehicles that emit more than 225g of CO2 per kilometre will be charged £25 to enter the congestion charge zone, while low emissions vehicles that emit less than 120g of CO2 per kilometre will be allowed to enter the zone for free.

Don't you think the statement "Who would vote for a clown who charged you £25 a day to drive to work" might be a little misleading? Though I agree people whose vehicles are high polluting might well have chosen not to vote for Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:21 PM

Well put DmcG, I guess this forum is not really the place to carry forward discussions with lots of often unknown facts

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: sapper82
Date: 04 May 08 - 03:49 PM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 May 08 - 08:08 PM

"Sapper 82 - don't you get it?"

Yes Richard, I do get it all too well. Perhaps YOU are the one who does not get it?
Was it "The Capitalist System" that denied able children from the Working Class the chance to make the best of their tallents?
After the way the English education system was built up from the mid 19th Century, initially with the assistance of philanthopic capitalists, was it not the socialists who destroyed the Grammar School System, forcing all children into the same "one size fits all" sausage machine?

Was it not the New Labour Socialists who, by their abolition of Advance Corporation Tax Relief, robbed pension funds of billions over the past 11 years whilst plunging their own snouts into the trough?

Yes, I do have a lot of doubts about the scale of globalisation, but still strongly feel that socailism is, and always has been a dead duck and that a strictly regulated Capitalist system is the better way forward..

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: sapper82
Date: 04 May 08 - 04:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: The Villan - PM
Date: 04 May 08 - 06:05 AM

The longest period of economic stability and growth - What a load of rubbish - Agreed. It was built on the back of the sound ecconomic situation the Tories left behind and is now running out of steam.


The highest spending on health - can't fault that, except that it has been totally squandered - And there is tha fault. Typical socialist thinking. "Ooh! We have a problem, lets throw some money at it and it'll be all ok."


The highest spending on education including the re-building or replacement of all secondary schools - squandered springs to mind - But why do the schools need rebuilding? The worst school buildings are those built in the '60s and '70s. The so called "decaying Victorian Schools" that still survive are actually much better buildings to work in and are only decaying because of the funds were swallowed up trying to sort out the more modern schools.



More children taken out of poverty than ever -not where I live - or where I live. Anyway, what is the definition of poverty?

10 years of tax changes that helped the economy and took many families out of poverty - and has put them back in it. - Again, what definition of poverty do they use? And have the tax changes REALLY helped the ecconomy? Robbing pension funds of billions has put MANY into poverty whilst our caring New Labour Socialists have had their snouts in the trough for their own pensions. Many people simply can not afford to pay sufficient to provide a meaningful pension because of the Socialist robbery over the past 11y.
A case of "We know what is best for you" and "Do as I say, not as I do."

The ending of the war in Ireland - 100% with that - But didn't John Major start the process off?

Crime down by 10% where I live -not where I live. - Or where I live!

You forgot Iraq - that has cost us a bomb in terms of lives, cost and an ex leader called blair who should b etried for what he and Bush did in Iraq.

Agree 100%.

Be proud and vote Labour, you know it makes sense. - New Labour luvvies need more time with their snouts in the trough.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 08 - 04:09 PM

"After the way the English education system was built up from the mid 19th Century, initially with the assistance of philanthopic capitalists"

Thank you thank you, doffs cap, but we don't want crumbs of education we want the bakery - it is our right.

Some working class kids went to Grammar Schools but most of us didn't.

In the 1950s around 2/3 of the population could be described as working class. Around 1/3 of those got to the Grammar Schools whilst 2/3 of the middle and upper classes got here.

"New Labour Socialists" you must be desperate for something to say.

"whilst plunging their own snouts into the trough"

I seem to remember all those City toffs with their snouts in the Stockmarket trough and piles of cocaine whilst unemployment went through the roof and generations of working class children left school with no chance of work.

I will give you this Sapper, most of us socialists can't agree on what it is or how to do it but if you think you can control gloab capitalism you are dafter than we are.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 08 - 05:15 PM

I think the grammar school I was in, was a one size fits all sort of sausage machine. It was only intereted in the kids who went to univeristy and, mid 1960's that was about five kids a year. It could be a pretty brutal dump as well.

having said that I think there were better grammar schools. I think, my wife attended one where the head was intent on serving a largely working class population. I think the staff at my school looked down on us as peasants. the Latin teacher used to call us 'clots and hobbldehoys' - which I think just about summed the place up.

Schools and eduation was always going to have to change and start serving society more closely - making better use of what kids there were. Rather than aping the public schools.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 04 May 08 - 06:13 PM

Opening post of this thread was posted by someone who professes to be part of the UK's legal profession.

Bottles? Rags? Petrol?

Now can any of you tell me why it is that it is always the looney left that immediately call for recourse for violence from the word go, then complain about lack of dialogue and reason when they get knocked flat on their arses.

Most other posts from the left relating to the subject illustrate that the "Luddites" are alive and well and are still just as misinformed and blind as they ever were.

Eleven years? Remember the ten election promises that were handed out in 1997 by NuLabour - OK all you Labour supporters, tell us how many, after eleven years of government, have they delivered on - hint try None, that will give you the correct answer "Education, education, education" my arse - plus the fact that everyone is a damn sight worse off now than they were in 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 04 May 08 - 06:51 PM

Well Teribus you've fair changed your tune.

Not so long ago, I remember you defending Blair's actions on Iraq in the face of all evidence that he and Bush had created a major disaster, both for the Iraqis and for the West.

Try to be consistent man!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:21 AM

"Making company directors personally liable for any tax avoidance by their companies"

Why? Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. A whole profession, composed of people called 'Chartered Accountants' is built upon it.

Unless, of course, by "Making company directors personally liable" you mean giving them even bigger bonuses proportionate to the amount of tax they save their companies from paying.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:16 AM

Oh dear Ake, everything has got to be so mono-chomatic in your world hasn't it? Go open another tin of "Chum".

Tell me what on earth has Iraq got to do with the absolute hash that NuLabour has made of governing the UK over the last eleven years? Give you a hint Ake - absolutely nothing.

Labour - Run out of money again, for no discernable improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:22 AM

Not in the BBC's opinion! (Teribus @ 6:13)

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:53 AM

Nice one DMcG,

the current economic problems are not caused by the British Government they are caused by American banks lending money to people who cannot afford to pay it back.

This is globalisation. Food prices are going up all over the world for all sorts of reasons that are nothing to do with Gordon. The"Market" response to global warming and oil shortages is to use food for fuel. Just what the poor need.

Now how can we control global capitalism? Short coherent answers please

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:34 AM

Get rid of Gordon Brown

Is that short enough?

I see he is now breaking wind and promisiing to make changes, the ones he should have done before the elections. Maybe the elections were a great kick up the arse and maybe he just might do something positive for once.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:45 AM

I am inclined to agree

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:25 AM

The question was 'How do we control Global Capitalism'.

Getting rid of Gordon Brown won't do that, it won't have the slightest effect. The UK simply doesn't have the political clout. So getting the current Tory Chinless-Wonder Brylcreem-Boy as PM won't either.

Brown was a good Chancellor who stayed too long, but anyone with more than half a working brain-cell could see that he wasn't PM material, and that his side-kick with the unmatching hair and eyebrows isn't Chancellor material. Square Pegs in Round Holes.

And anyone with more than half a working brain-cell can see that the young Tory Toff-In-Charge would be even worse. Show us some real policies - there, you can't because he hasn't thought of any. He's only good for jumping on his bike, and jumping on to the latest faddy trendy sound-byte bandwagon. We thought Major and Hague were disasters, but elect that lightweight and the wheels really will fall off.

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:39 AM

Compared with the challenges of climate change, Aids and globalisation the problems of the Labour Government and Lord Snooty and his palls is small beer

Best of luck world

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:17 AM

well ithink there has been some improvement from tory days. More people are working these days and that keeps people out of mischief.

You can sneer but unemployment is a big source of unhappiness to people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 08 - 12:26 PM

I can't wait for unemployment, wld. Four years to go, and counting the seconds! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:15 AM

>>Gordon Brown is expected to abandon plans to tax people for throwing out rubbish in a bid to revive the Government's popularity.<<

Now thats going to endear us to you Gordon.

>>MPs are secretly plotting to award themselves a pay rise of up to £15,000 a year, the Daily Express reports.<<

Ah, thats what we like to hear, if it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:52 AM

Hah...my education is now complete.
A lecture from Teribus on "Living with a monochrome thought process", by the man who wrote the definitive edition!!

Contrary to popular opinion, Teribus does like colours....as long as they're red, white and blue....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:56 AM

The Daily Express! The paper that carried two weeks of anti asylum seeker headlines including " Asylum Seekers ate my Donkey"

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:53 PM

Well thanks for that link on NuLabs record on election pledges DMcG.

BBC - the undoubtedly unbiased source that it is, or would have us think it is.

Amazed to read that NuLab has not put up taxes, yet everybody is a damn sight worse off now than they were in 1997. Of course the criteria that the Beeb were measuring against was "direct" taxation. Blair & Brown were great believers in indirect or "stealth" taxation, which has rocketted in the last 11 years. By the bye DMcG who was it that was going to dispense with the 10p Tax band, but had to wind their necks in as it would provoke a back-bench rebellion and lose the Government a vote in the Commons that would cause Gordon of Cartoon to go to the country?

Also amazed to see that the pledges relating to the NHS have been met, the Beeb must therefore believe that the NHS is better because of it. If they do they must be the only group in the country, apart from NuLab, that think that way.

Education the same

Defence the same

Foreign Policy the same

List goes on and on

What they have done is what most Labour governments do - they throw money at things without addressing the problem of what is actually wrong - recipe for disaster. Tony Blairs timing was perfect, he stood from under well before the cracks became too wide to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:06 PM

How many millions were unemployed in the 80s and how rich were the Stockbrokers?

It's interesting that throwing money thing - when we re-build or replace all the secondary schools its called throwing money at a problem.

When the rich have houses with more bedrooms than they have fingers and toes, cars big enough to invade Poland and send their children to schools that cost 50 times the cost of state education it's not throwing money it's a just reward.

The rich only respond to bribery whilst the poor respond better to poverty and threats.

House prices have gone up a lot then down a bit. Why do they go up - simple really it's the market stupid - house prices reflect the wages of those who seek to buy them.

Let me be clear the Government have made a number of stupid decisions.

The Lord Snooty and his palls have no policies, no answers and no ideas

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: GUEST,Crapaud
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:18 PM

"The Market response to global warming and oil shortages is to use food for fuel"

Don't think that's entirely true, Les.

The market's response to global warming is to offer "carbon offsets" for the terminally guilt-ridden.

The market's response to oil shortages (more strictly, to the increased prices which are only partially due to shortages) is to open new fields which were previously uneconomic (or exploit tar-sands ditto).

The market's response to subsidies on bio-fuel is to use food for fuel, but subsidies are the cause, not the market.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:33 PM

Fair enough Crapaud, I was responding like the daily Express.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:51 PM

You miss my point rather, Teribus. You are assuming I am a defender of New Labour. In fact, I don't think that the left/right split is a particularly helpful way of thinking about the issues. I fully agree, for example, that the 10% tax introduction and removal was inept, or opportunism, or more likely both.

What I was really getting at is that making subjective assertions that 'none of the promises have been fulfilled' simply opens you up to someone else making the exact opposite assertion, with neither side actually providing anything remotely like evidence. The BBC survey, whatever its faults, is more solid evidence than either viewpoint had provided up to that point. As to its independence: obviously no body can be truly independant but it is a least a survey that is not from a think-tank or newspaper directly linkable to either party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:33 PM

Point well taken DMcG.

"When the rich have houses with more bedrooms than they have fingers and toes, cars big enough to invade Poland and send their children to schools that cost 50 times the cost of state education it's not throwing money it's a just reward." - Les in Chorlton

Bit envious there are we Les?

Some points that of course should be obvious about your "Rich example":

1) The "Rich" use their money to buy the "houses with more bedrooms than they have fingers and toes". Are you objecting to their right to spend their money on what they choose?

2) The "Rich" use their own money to buy "cars big enough to invade Poland". Their choice and people work at building, maintaining and selling those cars so they (The "Rich") create employment.

3) The "Rich" use their own money to "send their children to schools that cost 50 times the cost of state education". I take then that the education of their children is not a burden on the state, therefore by doing what you object to they make sure that more state resources go to whoever requires it.

4) "it's not throwing money it's a just reward" - No Les it's called exercising ones choice in accordance with ones means.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:58 PM

I have private medical insurance, not becuase I can afford it, but becuase the national health is so crap.
I am unemployed but not claiming benefits, so I am not one of those rich gits.
Until the national health is sorted I will keep my private medical insurance as long as I can.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:08 PM

yeh I'm envious, even if he isn't.

course I'm bloody envious. I've spent my life taking care of my disabled wife and I don't have the option to choose any of those things.

And theres lots of other people like me, and they're envious too. And you won't make me ashamed of my feelings - which are totally justified.

there are winners in this society and for for some unknown reason (could it be the totally unfair distribution of wealth?) there are a hell of a lot more losers. this is despite most people slogging their socks off at shit jobs.

basically the only things the toffs can't fix for themselves is football, snooker and boxing. showbiz and the music biz. literature and the arts are almost completely the the preserve of the hooray henry types.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:35 PM

Being envious of what someone else has is a pretty pointless exercise.

If someone who is rich decides to spend his money on whatever takes his fancy that's fine by me. It harms no-one and puts money in circulation.

When the Government starts throwing money at a problem without direction and without addressing the problem, they are not fixing anything they are only perpetuating the problem, and what is more important Les and WLD they are doing it with your money - that's the difference

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:15 PM

It's about justice. I have a very rich life and I would like most people to have access to what I have.

I left school at 15 I have a Masters degree and lots of banjos.

People who have 100 or a 1000 times more wealth have very rarely worked a 100 or a 1000 times harder or more effectively.

And that's it really.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:18 PM

'I have a Masters degree and lots of banjos.'


that should ensure a certain amount of solitude

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:13 AM

Justice? Naw Les, typical British socialist politics of envy:

"He/They have something, I/we don't, lets take it away from him/them."

On the other hand some of those with 100 or 1000 times what you have started out with a damn sight less than you had and did earn every penny - you don't seem to differentiate to accommodate those people. You just lump them all together as being "Rich", and therefore all evil exploiters of the downtrodden working class.

Envy is what your dislike is about Les, justice doesn't even enter the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 May 08 - 02:17 AM

Put it anoher way Teribus

More food. Kill the bosses.

Its an idea whose time will come, even in England.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:13 AM

Trust Teri to dig up 'politics of envy'. As though politics of gluttony, pride, avarice, anger and sloth weren't a thousand times worse.

But Les and the rest, you're never going to inspire the masses with the slogan "We're not as bad as the other lot".

"Swallow hard and vote Labour", they told me, "Things could be a lot worse."
So I swallowed hard and voted Labour.
And lo, things were a lot worse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:13 AM

"On the other hand some of those with 100 or 1000 times what you have started out with a damn sight less than you had and did earn every penny - you don't seem to differentiate to accommodate those people."

Just a technical point but you don't know what I started with or what I have now.

I will grant you that point that when people have genuinely earned what they have they deserve it, no problem. But lets just remember that the really rich don't get most of their wealth from wages but from investment. If you start off rich you can invest and get richer with out actually working, not an option for the poor.

Yes I know investment is essential for world trade and industrial development but it is creating incredible differences in power and wealth. It is building factories in Asia where children make trainers and footballs for a few pence a day.

Many trans-global organisations have more power and wealth than most third world countries. This does not support democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:20 AM

Well Paul I am not going to repeat what I think we have got right and wrong again.

But I will repeat this:

You do nothing, start your own party or join one that exists.

and this:

The Lord Snooty and his palls have no policies, no answers and no ideas

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:26 AM

Les
Sorry to say, but you seem brainwashed and have lost the abilty to look at the real world.
Labour have done a really crap job and do not deserve to be in control.
Face facts.
Les

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:31 AM

Your are probably right Villian, I just think, we the exception of the war the Tories supported, we have done a better job than most people expected.

Will Lord Snooty and Mad Boris will do a better job?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:45 AM

What will you do if Boris doesn't cock it up?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:16 AM

Well, it's quite simple really, if Lord Snooty and his palls do a much better job they will be proved right, we will be proved wrong and they will get elected again.

That's democracy!

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:37 PM

Now I do like this one

Alexander stands firm in vote row

But Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond said something now "had to give".

He added: "The positions of Wendy Alexander and the prime minister are incompatible. This claimed agreement is clearly not there.

"Either she has to go, he has to go or they both have to go and I suspect he wants to stay so I think she's now in a very difficult position."

Wendy Alexander has said she will not quit as Scottish Labour Leader over her call for an early referendum on Scottish independence.

Her comments came after Gordon Brown earlier failed to explicitly support her stance during question time at the House of Commons.

Why doesn't Brown Bugger off to Scotland and lets have an English Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: autolycus
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:57 PM

Roo much of my posts on this thread get ignored (no blame) to make adding more feel specially worthwhile.

However, I notice Teri returning to a familiar point, the supposed 'politics of envy'.

Just to point out that this is another good example of 'projection'.

The right don't like to acknowledge their own greediness, which is one of the fundamental driving-forces of c*p***l**m. So they try to unload their discomfort onto the left.

It's just avoidance.

if we weren't encouraged to be greedy, a major motivation to keep buying would go, and THEN where would we be?

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:18 AM

Exactly so Ivor, without the "politics of envy" the whole Capitalist system would implode.

Capitalism will of course have to be abandoned ultimately, due to environmental and social issues. Globalisation will also be consigned to the dustbin, and for the first time in thousands of years we will be obliged to try to survive as a species.

Perhaps everything does work in cycles.

I sometimes wonder about folks like Teribus....Do they really think that we can continue laying waste to our world for ever?
Do they ever really THINK?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:41 AM

Why doesn't Brown Bugger off to Scotland and lets have an English Prime Minister.

Because the Prime Minister is not the Prime Minister of England?

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:50 AM

Well he should be, after all the rest seem to have their independance and subsidies from England.

Subject: RE: BS: UK local elections: here comes poverty
From: Rasener
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:28 AM

Anyway the dust seems to be settling and Brown will probably just sit back and do very little, other than break wind.