BS: Shotgun Cheney

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:15 PM

When I hunt (or shoot targets), I keep both eyes open. Took me some gettin' used to when I was twelve or thirteen, but it's become a life-long habit. Increases my field of vision by 100% from 90 degrees to 180 degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:20 PM

I thought you did not use a shotgun, Peace. You shoot rifle sights with both eyes open? Scope?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Don't use a shotgun worth a damn. Shoot open sight or scope with both eyes open. Have done so for 45 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:22 PM

Well, well, then. Lets listen to people with gun training and experience in the field:


Cheney Violates Cardinal Rule of Hunting
By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON -

Vice President Dick Cheney apparently broke the No. 1 rule of hunting: be sure of what you're shooting at. Cheney wounded fellow hunter Harry Whittington in the face, neck and chest Saturday, apparently because he didn't see Whittington approaching as he fired on a covey of quail in Texas.

Hunting safety experts interviewed Monday agreed it would have been a good idea for Whittington to announce himself — something he apparently didn't do, according to a witness. But they stressed that the shooter is responsible for knowing his surroundings and avoiding hitting other people.

"We always stress to anybody that before you make any kind of a shot, it's incumbent upon the shooter to assess the situation and make sure it's a safe shot," said Mark Birkhauser, president-elect of the International Hunter Education Association and hunter education coordinator in New Mexico. "Once you squeeze that trigger, you can't bring that shot back."

Duane Harvey, president of the Wisconsin Hunter Education Instructors Association, said if Whittington had made his presence known "that would have been a polite thing to do." But, he added, "it's still the fault upon the shooter to identify his target and what is beyond it."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_hunting_accident

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: number 6
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:45 PM

Latest update on shoot 'em down Dick ... he was hunting illegely, as he did not have his $7.00 permit ... but don't fret my amigos, he gets off on a warning.

If anyone hears that he is coming up to New Brusnwick (Canada) on a hunting trip will you please warn me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM

Maybe he forgot it was quail they were after, and thought it was turkey season?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: leftydee
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM

Accidents happen, but .... I've spent 1000s of hours (literally) bird hunting and have never shot anyone , been shot or, for that matter, ever knew anyone that was. Regardless, if it's an accident it means it was a mistake and I can live with that. However, the resonsibility remains with the shooter. Part of field hunting etiquette requires that you know where your companions are. Another part means respecting the working dogs and shooting that low is questionable. Plus, good ethics require that you're properly licensed. It looks to me that Mr Cheney ain't quite the sport that the media reports. My biggest complaint is that it appears that he tried to pull a Ted Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:04 PM

Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bert
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM

We have a Vice President who can't use a gun properly and a President
who can't use a microphone.

We don't stand a bloody chance!

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:11 PM

And, of course, there were no automobile accidents or any other "accidents" in the world today. Jaysus... youse are twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:11 PM

Yes, we do. The one with the microphone could quack like a duck and the one with the shotgun . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:20 PM

Dick "Death Blossom" Cheney.

I just read that term this morning--death blossom. It apparently refers to the tendency of Iraqi soldiers in combat to simply begin simultaneously shooting in every direction--friends, enemies, bystanders, nobody, anybody--simply shooting non-discriminately in every direction at once.

Ol Death Blossom Dick!

Someone ought to make up a Western wanted poster.

Anyway, I believe the general consensus here is that the shooter is ultimately responsible. After all, someone could shoot you and claim you stepped in their line of sight. Their has to be an assumption of guilt on the part of the shooter. Otherwise no tellin what some yay hoo might do if'n he feelin ornery.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:29 PM

Their has to be an assumption of guilt on the part of the shooter.

While I have no doubt about Dickie-wad's guilt in general, I'm afraid the assumption of guilt as a first premise s not used in this country, for good andsufficient reason. Tempted though I am, I have to say incorporating -- even for someone with as much blood on his hands as Cheney -- is a very bad idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:33 PM

gnu, you're making a lot of assumptions as to whether those of us who have posted have been trained in gun safety or not.

Growing up in the West, learning how to use a gun SAFELY was commonplace when I was a kid. Even then, idiots would come out for hunting season and shoot mules/horses/etc. "by mistake" one of which was decked out completely in orange. Now, it still happens, though it seems they shoot each other more than other critters, which is fine with me.

Bertdarlin'...wouldn't make any difference if he DID know how to use a mic, he still doesn't make any sense:

Bush Explains Medicare Drug Bill

Verbatim Quote

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: "I don't really understand. How is the new plan
going to fix the problem?"


PRESIDENT BUSH: (Verbatim response)

"Because the -- all which is on the table begins to address the big
cost drivers. For example, how benefits are calculated, for example,
is on the table. Whether or not benefits rise based upon wage
increases or price increases. There's a series of parts of the
formula that are being considered. And when you couple that, those
different cost drivers, affecting those -- changing those with
personal accounts, the idea is to get what has been promised more
likely to be -- or closer delivered to that has been promised. Does
that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled. Look, there's a
series of things that cause the -- like, for example, benefits are
calculated based upon the increase of wages, as opposed to the
increase of prices. Some have suggested that we calculate -- the
benefits will rise based upon inflation, supposed to wage increases.
There is a reform that would help solve the red if that were put
into effect. In other words, how fast benefits grow, how fast the
promised benefits grow, if those -- if that growth is affected, it
will help on the red."

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:38 PM

That "friendly fire" is a bitch, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:39 PM

Goes to show that Repub VPs are getting more effective. Ford only hit people with tennis balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: gnu
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:40 PM

The "general concensus"? An "assumption of guilt"? That's it. Sunset time for me. I require some logic... or knowledge... or experience... or some semblence of reason. I find none here.

Hang em high!

And, whistle when you get near me. So's I can get a good bead on ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bert
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:49 PM

Yer right Katmeluv, he never did make any sense. That quote is precious.

Actually Friendy Fire is a thing that Americans are noted for.

I worked with a guy who served in the Eighth Army in Italy. He claimed that if the Jerries came over they didn't take much notice, but if it was the Yanks everybody rushed for cover.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 08:50 PM

>>Tempted though I am, I have to say incorporating -- even for someone with as much blood on his hands as Cheney -- is a very bad idea.<<

It not only is not a bad idea, it's how it is. If you shoot someone--regardless of why--you're going to be arrested and charged. That doesn't mean you will be found guilty but there will be a trial or at least a hearing. When one person shoots another, it is a very bad idea to assume it was an accident. If it was, let him prove it, let the evidence show it. But he can't be allowed to simply walk away from it.

It's like traffic court--you're guilty until you prove your innocence. It couldn't work any other way. I shouldn't have said an assumption of guilt. I should have said a presumption of guilt. If you shoot someone, you must prove you weren't being an asshole. Foul play or negligence must be presumed and you must prove it is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 09:35 PM

well, no matter how how all plays out, or who gets the blame, the humorists are having a field day! Saw video of cartoonist Mike Lucovitch doing a cartoon in which Cheney is aiming and saying:

"I want to make tomorrow easy for the cartoonists---hold still!"

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM

All in all, accidents can happen to anyone. No one is immune

And hunting sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:13 PM

I'm sure President Cheney would explain that, if you're going to hunt with him you'll just have to accept a certain amount of collateral damage.

Kinda like civilians in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:19 AM

As a scot who has been a "beater" (a person hired to drive pheasant and grouse out of the woods and moors toward the guns) I was innumerably rained with buckshot from the drunken assholes who sat in the hides waiting for the birds. That ain't hunting. And what Chaney does ain't "hunting" either.
   I should make clear that I am against this "sport".
   That he was able to hit the chest and face of his partner meant that he was shooting low and not attempting to take the birds fairly "on the rise" as propper bird hunting calls for.
   Shooting birds requires that you lead the shot so that the bird and the buckshot arrive at the same time. That angle is about 35 to 45 degees.
   So how did Dick manage to hit someone at a less than 5 deree elevation?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Naemanson
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:28 AM

Someone must have told him they were running out of soldiers in Iraq so he had to kill somebody! Fortunately he screwed that up too.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:28 AM

Thanks, Billy, for that info. I was wondering about that. So not only is he careless, he's also a poor sport.

Birdshot is not funny. Whittington be living with that lead under his skin for the rest of his life

I'm sure Cheney has had to pay alot of money for that little mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:00 AM

BE vewwwwy quiet....I'm hunting Iwaqis....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 04:14 AM

"Death Blossom"

Hey, wasn't that the BFG-Trick in 'Last Starfighter'?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:32 AM

Thanks Amos, you came closest to answering my questions.
Usually when I ask for cartooning advice the mudcat is about as personally interactive as watching TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:49 AM

Do you think he ever goes out hunting along with Bush?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:55 AM

Here's a link to front page dailykos dairy on this subject:
It's the Metaphor, Stupid!: Cheney story bigger than you think
by thereisnospoon {Mon Feb 13, 2006}

And here's one post from that dairy:

"It's closer than metaphor with Cheney.

It's evidence of character.

Incompetent, bloodthirsty, irresponsible, reckless, degenerate, cloistered and evasive.

But, yes, a metaphor for the Bush administration"
-by howth of murph on Mon Feb 13, 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:00 AM

On last night's news they were making a big issue outta why the White House didn't make the announcement earlier but as far as I'm concerned that dog don't hunt... Like who cares when they told us??? It ain't like a national security issue, is it???

But from reading the posts here this morning about the carelessness on Cheney's part I keep thinking about Iraq and just how similar the two are... There seems to be an nasty little evil streak in this man who shoots first and asks questions later...

It will be nice when the United Sates has him in the rear view mirror where he can do no more harm...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:00 AM

Billy, you hunt birds with "Buck shot"? is there anything left of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:27 AM

Donuel:

I have to confess that line was coined by some other wag and reported in a news story about all the fun comedians are having at The Dick's expense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:31 AM

the news said he was using a "28 gauge" shotgun, which is about the smallest going...and why there was only minimal damage to the victim.

But the news ALSO said he had failed to buy a hunting licence for this trip! That alone will cost him....

There are many, many guessing that they all waited to report this until the next morning, so that any traces of alcohol would be gone...but that, of course, is just speculation so far.

(The old lawyer will no doubt take the 'blame' for not announcing his position...which STILL does not absolve WMDick for his basic errors!)

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:32 AM

Kill it, skin it and clean it all in one shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: number 6
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:17 AM

Bill D. as mentioned in a preveious post, Dick's getting off with a warning for not having a the $7.00 permit (unless minds have changed since last nite) ... executive priviledge I presume.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:28 AM

According to the AP this morning, the Texas Fish & Game people say that they are only issuing warnings about the $7 stamp because the program is only five months old. Also, Cheney's office says that he had a licesnse for which he paid $125 -- the out-of-state cost in Texas. His office also says that Cheney was unaware of the need for the stamp.

Apparently the Secret Service didn't let the first Deputy Sheriff in to interview Cheney, even though it had been previously cleared. The guy was allowed in later; "miscommunication" was blamed.

Gee, I was always try to keep up with the hunting regs in the state where I'm going to hunt.

Peace, you could handload your own shells and fire off an incendiary and then one loaded with barbecue sauce. Shoot 'em, clean 'em, skin 'em, cook 'em, and season 'em all from a distance....

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:04 PM

wasnt this some kind of canned hunt anyway, where they DRIVE up to a spot, the quail are flushed out and you start blasting from 3 feet away?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:04 PM

They find the shooting of another human being AMUSING? Just what I'd expect from this bunch of fatuous, adolescent assholes.

-----------------

White House Finds Humor in Hunting Mishap

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer 14 Feb 06

WASHINGTON - The White House has decided that the best way to deal with Vice President
Dick Cheney's shooting accident is to joke about it.

President Bush's spokesman quipped Tuesday that the burnt orange school colors of the University of Texas championship football team that was visiting the White House shouldn't be confused for hunter's safety wear...

The president's brother, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, took a similar jab after slapping an orange sticker on his chest... "I'm a little concerned that Dick Cheney is going to walk in," the governor cracked during an appearance in Tampa Monday...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_hunting_accident

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:29 PM

Big deal. I've been peppered myself while dove hunting by a over eager hunter. It's not an uncommon occurance and a non-story for the press.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:18 PM

A dove hunter. Can't say it surprises me to hear that, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:41 PM

Cheney's victom just had a heart attack from the bird shot in his heart.

This could turn into manslaughter

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Bert
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:46 PM

If the truth be known, he did it on purpose to detract our attentions from the recent cartoons of Mohammed.

Whoops Doug You laid yourself wide open for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:43 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/headlines.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 02:55 PM

Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:04 PM

All the "pepper" phrases coming from the loyal local republican reporter that Cheney first contacted are going to come back to haunt her and rub salt in the wounds. (she was chosen to break the story because of her republican family ties) She went on to say that she had been peppered before. When questioned further about her peppering she admitted her peppering had not actually broken the skin.

The man was shot in the heart and face for Christs sake.

thats why I did http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/headlines.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: gnu
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:11 PM

I said it was sunset time. However, since sunset, I have had more than a few PMs. Most have asked, more or less, "... when and where is it okay to not be sure of your target?" So... I am submitting this post in response to the PMs. I will not respond to any more PMs on this subject and I hope never to post here again.

"When and where...?" Never and nowhere. Not only that, but you must be aware of what is, and what may be, beyond your target.

From what I have read so far, accounts by several witnesses all indicate that Cheney followed proper safety procedures. Unfortunately, many posters here have either chose to overlook this fact or do not understand these procedures.

Okay. Just the basic, pertinent rules. (BTW, I do not participate in this type of hunting, for my own personal reasons.) In this type of hunting, hunters space themselves an agreed distance apart and move forward, slowly, at the same pace, an agreed distance, then stopping and checking the movement of the hunters on his left and right. Most hunters check movement of the others every few feet. As well, all stop when game is flushed, or for any other reason which may arise.   Each hunter has an agreed field of fire in which he may shoot. Noone may move forward until all agree. All must move forward as agreed. If any hunter decides not to continue, he must signal and retreat to a safe distance. The line is reformed. If a hunter wishes to join a line, he must signal and be acknowledged by all before moving up to the line. Any hunter joining the line must take the place of the furthest left or the furthest right hunter and the replaced hunter moves to remain in an end position. Once at the line, the hunter joining the line may load his weapon.

Now, the end position field of fire. Let's use the left end, facing due north. The field of fire of the left end extends from the agreed east angle, to southwest. So, if you ever decide to sneak up on a line, don't go near the ends.

There's a bit more than that to it. And, of course, there's a heck of a lot more to gun safety. But, I hope these basics give some of you an idea of what MAY have gone wrong.

As far as expecting someone to know you are moving into their field of fire, or even into their range of fire, from behind... well, it's obvious the guy should have signalled. That's why there are procedures. It really is just that simple.

Now, as far as anyone coming up with things like, say, "What if there was a deaf, dumb, blind man in full camouflage running around at top speed on a private ranch...", don't bother. I just hope the quail were tasty and that they saved a bite for the old fella that got shot... by accident.

And, seriously, no more PMs, please. Read the news releases.

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

I've done a substantial amount of shooting, so I'm not speaking from lack of experience. There are a number of PRIMARY principles involved when firearms are involved, all important, none secondary. One of those primary principles is know exactly what your target IS before you shoot. Another is know what is BEHIND your target before you shoot.

No excuses!

Don Firth

P. S. A little crow for dinner tonight, Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM

He was not properly permitted either. What do you say to that dougr?

Subject: RE: BS: Shotgun Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:52 PM

Cheney is by-God the fu#kin' Vice President of the United States of America and he can do as he damned well pleases. Has been for six years anyway.