BS: On the cause of Famines

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:10 PM

Spot on Jim!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:30 PM

Just noticed he's managed to close the last thread - make sure he doesn't do the same here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 01:34 PM

A typical response from our resident bigot. It is the not word according to the world of jimmie, therefore it must be wrong.
The Great Hunger: Ireland 1845-1849 by Cecil Woodham-Smith was not an altogether welcome event. Perhaps they envied the book’s commercial success: The Great Hunger was immediately a best-seller on two continents, and its premier status as the most widely read Irish history book of all time has only grown with the years.
BUT

https://www.historyireland.com/the-famine/the-great-famine-and-its-interpreters-old-and-new/

There is a political divide and radically changed social mores since the great famine. Separating all these out to get a balanced picture is no easy task.Arguing the rights and wrongs can go on forever. Mistakes were made. Was the treatment of Irish immigrants in America
blemish free? Should this not be a part of the discussion also?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:10 PM

More random grabs Iains
I suggest you look at the date of that one - about 10/15 years before the publication of the Trevelyan letter describing the Famine as "God's Punishment'
Things have moved on considerably since then
The article show no new research, just an opinion based on what little was available at the time
That was one of Keith's early letter on the thread where he described Irish children to have been "brainwashed to hate Britain"
"A typical response from our resident bigot."
I have no intenion of carrying on a discussion with soeone whose every other word is "liar"
Feel free to talk to him if that's your inclination - I've had him up to the gunwales
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

At least we're back to talking about famines. But logic dear Jim Carrol is another affair. You happen to be reading a book about Stalin that doesn't go into the famine THEREFORE the famine wasn't a 'thing' and wasn't caused by Soviet perfidy, i.e. collectivization and persecution of the 'Kulaks' as I believe you yourself mentioned in an earlier post? You must think you have the flexibility of a snake bending all around those ideological corners. I think your version of being well-informed is to further entrench yourself in your pre-existing ideological framework.

Ideology doesn't feed people. Food feeds people.

The estimates of deaths in the Ukraine famine is well over 5 million.
I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned the estimated 2 million Cambodians who perished due to the Khmer Rouge. Entirely created by the leadership.
In the modern era there seem to be famines wherever the Communists have had durable control of a country. Venezuela is shaping up as the next venue.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

Trevelyan's words
The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.

And the welcome they got when they sought refuge in Britain

A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.

"The estimates of deaths in the Ukraine famine is well over 5 million. ""
Around half the figure of Congolese at the hands of Imperial "Gallant little Belgium" in pursuit of rubber for King Leopld
The number that had their hands cut off for not meeting their quota has never been calculated
And a tiny fraction of the young man who died for the acquisition of territory in WW1
One mans atrocity is another's matter of indifference I suppose

Worked out those "complicated postings" yet Robo?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

You have not done much to explicate your longer multi purpose postings. And your most recent one above is a combination of one maleficent writer's screeds with various different historical occurrences which makes a chaos of all details. Your attitude is very much Trump-like in that you seize upon any thing at any time to obfuscate the issue. Which makes your own postings vis-a-vis the Irish famine ludicrous.

For the record, and mentioned elsewhere in Mudcat, King Leopold's horrendous legacy in the Congo was primarilly his alone. The 'Belgian' Congo was HIS possession. Gallant Little Belgium wasn't innit.

The Communist legacies in Russia, China, North Korea, Cambodia, and now Venezuela were cases of organizational imposition of theory over practice "the imposed or planned economy", and a consistent refusal to learn from mistakes. And an all-too-usual resort to state violence to impose the will of a minority of powerful people in the guise of a ruling party where only one party was allowed to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 07:29 PM

"the Congo was primarily his alone. "
He was Emperor of Belgium, Belgium as a nation was made aware of it and did nothing to stop him (via the writing and speeches of Maar Twain and others) they took over what was left of his holdings after a scouser shipping clerk showed him up for the monster he was   
The Congo wan a massive Imperial atrocity for profit - outstripping anything Stalin did - this time intentionally
Another defence of yet another terrorist state and you've chosen to ignore the rest (maybe you didn't understand them this time as well!!)
"You have not done much to explicate your longer multi purpose postings. "
Not quite sure what you wrote there (as convoluted as it comes) but it appears abusive and it still acknowledges your covering up of antisemitism for a friend on the breathtakingly stupid pretext that you didn't understand it
You are not responding to what is being put up as is your wont, so I see little point in dealing with people as dishonest and lacking in humanity as you
I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters without adding another to the festering heap
Regarding Britain efforts to solve the 'Irish Problem' using "God's Punishment" - The Famine
I've said my piece on this one - ad nauseum - last time it was Keith (again) and the gone and thankfully forgotten Teribus who were using this forum to show what a stupid, hate filled (not forgetting brainwashed) race they/we are, who only get what they/we deserve
I think the only thing I ever took from Mad Maggie was her "Fresh air of publicity" phrase" – I see no reason to participate in giving it to you and yours to develop yet another hate-fest
Keith's "brainwashed-to-hate" Irish children made it quite clear where he stands on this - Iains has made a good start with his "bog-trotter" and "Leprechaun" words of tolerant wisdom - as one is incapable of forming a sentence that doesn't contain the word "liar", the other specialises in responding to argument with schoolyard abuse and you pretend not to understand what you can't deal with - I think I'll leave y'all to it (you seem to have found your intellectual level here so you'll hardly be lonely)
I'm off from this before it warms up and you lads get into your stride.

I'll leave you with the words of wisdom of The Reverend Charles Kingsley’s author of The Water babies) take on the Irish who fled the Famine
"I AM HAUNTED BY THE HUMAN CHIMPANZEES I SAW ALONG THAT HUNDRED MILES OF HORRIBLE COUNTRY [IRELAND]...TO SEE WHITE CHIMPANZEES IS DREADFUL; IF THEY WERE BLACK ONE WOULD NOT SEE IT SO MUCH, BUT THEIR SKINS, EXCEPT WHERE TANNED BY EXPOSURE, ARE AS WHITE AS OURS.
Have a good time all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 09:43 PM

Current famine also in Yemen. Human caused.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:30 AM

"Current famine also in Yemen."
And made worse by Britain selling fighter planes to the Saudis
Human rights groups repeatedly blamed the Saudi-led military coalition for killing civilians and destroying health centers and other infrastructure with airstrikes.
Proving the old business adage that "where there's a natural disaster there's a PROFIT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

Robomatic, I think you are a little confused. Jim posted Trevelyans actual words, not something written by another person to describe the event.

Trevelyan said "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

This at a time when hundreds of thousands were dying of starvation or the diseases associated with starvation.

I have attached a wiki page relating to Trevelyan part of which reads:

"During the height of the famine Trevelyan deliberately dragged his feet in disbursing direct government food and monetary aid to the Irish due to his strident belief in laissez-faire economics and the free hand of the market.[3] In a letter to an Irish peer, Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, he described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgement of God" and wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Trevelyan

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:27 AM

Another aspect of the famine too often forgotten
Well worth chasing up for those wishing to understand how natural disasters were preyed upon
Predatory religious practices played a large part in colonising the poorest countries (in Ireland - The Quakers shone like principled and humane beacons over those scrabbling to win souls in the "God for food" stakes
Jim Carroll


What is "souperism"
Wiktionary
souperism
n. (context historical derogatory English) During the (w: Irish Potato Famine), the setting up of schools by non-Roman Catholic Bible societies in which starving Catholic children were fed but were subjected to Protestant religious instruction at the same time.

Souperism
Souperism was a phenomenon of the Irish Potato Famine. Protestant Bible societies set up schools in which starving children were fed, on the condition of receiving Protestant based religious instruction at the same time. Its practitioners were reviled by the Catholic families who had to choose between their faith and starvation. People who converted for food were known as soupers, a derogatory epithet that continued to be applied and featured in the press well into the 1870s. In the words of their peers: they "took the soup".

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

Jim,
I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters

You resort to telling lies about me again.
How am I dishonest?
I just quoted an historian that you referenced, and I am never abusive.

Keith's "brainwashed-to-hate" Irish children made it quite clear where he stands on this

That was not my claim. I quoted historians on that too. I am interested but no historian myself.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

Hoops Mr Carroll, Hoops !!!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:05 AM

In what way are hoops relevant to this debate Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:09 AM

"I think Keith an the increasing abusive Iains are enough dishonest and abusive posters"

CARE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF JIMMIE? DISHONESTY?
more drivelling nonsense of the resident clown!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

More hoops Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM

Other people have been banned from this forum for far lesser offences than Jim's deliberately insulting lies.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:10 AM

Whenever other contributors challenge Jim's views, he drops the subject and switches to smearing them personally, typically by claiming they have said very bad things but a very long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

Hoops James my boy, hoops! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:33 AM

Raggytash just because Glasgow Celtic are about to clinch the Scottish league again there no reason to post that 3 times ..... they've done it before! no big deal
if thats not the reason can you explain your posts

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 09:43 AM

It's a big deal if you support Celtic.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:15 AM

Rag, stop posting your hoops shit and join the debate or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

Hoops, Hoops, Hoops!
Is this a new game? Can anybody play?????

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 11:27 AM

I think I'm cock-a-hoop !!!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:16 PM

Bragging Again?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:20 PM

Kenny, had you minded to look up the phrase you would have found it to mean "extremely and obviously please"

Quite happy to help.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 12:21 PM

Jim, if you said it in Scouse would it be hoop la' ? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:28 PM

Raggy I knew what cock-a-hoop meant
But since you couldn't give the full definition I will
cock-a-hoop
adjective
adjective: cock-a-hoop; adjective: cocka-hoop
extremely and obviously pleased, especially about an achievement.
"the team is cock-a-hoop at winning its first game of the season"

Your omission tells me all

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

"you know, for kids"

I sure don't know what all the "hoop-la" is about!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:22 PM

Kenny I have no desire to fall out with you. I am sure you know the reason for posting "hoops" so I have no need to explain.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 05:37 PM

here is a song i wrote about soupers. i had also read they would put meat it in on friday, either on purpose or not, and catholics could not eat it. that could be rumor..don't know.

tune is different than praties grow small but my head keeps putting it there

we who took your soup took your soup took your soup
we who took your soup took your soup
we who took your soup are a sad and shameful group
to indignities we stopped took your soup took your soup

what should a father do etc.
what should a father do when his children smell the stew
and he has a bowl too etc.

kitty bar the door bar the door etc.
...i can't face them any more
and the awful oath i swore bar the door bar the door

to america we'll steal we will steal we will steal
....
to america we'll steal where there's food at every meal
and the charity is real we will steal we will steal

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

I am sure you know the reason for posting "hoops" so I have no need to explain.

Please explain it to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:35 AM

H ....................oops!

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 AM

Could it be an anagram of poohs?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:34 AM

Weel said by the wee man in the baubly hat

Jim mentioned "Soupers"

1 .... Can anyone tell me if the provision of sustenance to desperate people saved lives?

2 .... Is it anyone's opinion that the self righteous people who advised desperate people not to associate with soup/sustenance providers cost lives

3 .... is the provision of sustenance to change their views not a much lesser evil than the Conquistadorian policy of "Convert or Die"

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

Very much a can of worms this one Kenny, as I am sure you realise.

One interesting point though is your referral to "self righteous people who advised desperate people not to associate with soup/sustenance providers"

Could it not be argued that "self righteous people" were offering food in exchange for people relinquishing the faith they had followed for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM

What I will tell you Kenny is that the assistance could have been been given without this condition being imposed. That and I think being given the choice "convert or starve" is appalling.

Going by the wiki article, it is unclear how widespread this practice was and it perhaps could be noted that other Protestants, including the Anglican Archbishop of Dublin, were against the practice and did offer unconditional help.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 07:12 AM

Thanks Jon
A balanced article

I agree with your sentiments.
The way souperism was introduced here this time didn't give the impression that a balanced view was available.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:03 AM

Raggy
I agree with all 3 sentences

Maybe the statement " the lord moves in mysterious ways" is apt in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM

Which three sentences Kenny, yours or mine?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:13 AM

Two of Yours and one of mine repeated in your post


A thought Divine Providence

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

I think one of the problems at this remove from the time is that many of us today do not have a faith, or carry a faith with very much conviction. So given the choice today many people would say give me the food I'm starving with not a second thought about their religion.

Thus it is difficult for us the conceive the issue in the same way as people at the time would have done.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:46 AM

"Thus it is difficult for us the conceive the issue in the same way as people at the time would have done."

I agree entirely . If we judge everything in todays standards and protocols we open many cans of worms when dealing with the past .

To have an active interest in history is commendable but to judge past events and be consumed by their inhumanity by todays political correctness is argument for arguments sake.
Many folk use the freedom of Mudcats Laisse-faire policy to indulge in personal abuse but deny our forebears the same the same right in their affairs. Have we actually learned anything ?

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:33 PM

Social mores change over time. This adds a major complication when analysing past events. Also the data sets available to judge past events have to be weighed as to their impartiality. This creates another major problem when it comes to deriving accurate interpretation. Distortion inevitably exists in the written record yet history texts seem to gloss over this aspect in their mighty tomes. Polarity of views in the existing record also clouds rational judgement.
It would be nice if the outcome of research was presented as shades of grey rather than as black and white absolutes.

The argument about soupers makes an excellent example. It was presented as an all encompassing blight. Revolting though the practice may have been the Wiki article clarifies that perhaps it was more a case of hype than actuality in the majority of cases.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:00 PM

There is well documented evidence for Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo during the period of the famine. Yes he fed some people but there was a cost in pay in people being ostracised that continues in some part even today. Some people "jumped" and then "jumped" back to their original religion but carried a "stigma" that was passed down the generations. When I'm next in Ireland I will post the name of the book I read on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:54 PM

Raggy. That it happened is a fact. What is lost in the fog of time is an accurate assessment of the scale.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

Iains, much of what I read was written at the time. Edward Neagle was a VERY prominent proselytiser.

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:34 PM

Raggy is this what you were referring Googled resuly of Edward Neagles proselytising on Achill Island, County Mayo du

Subject: RE: BS: On the cause of Famines
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:23 PM

I do not know how accurate the link below is ,but Neagle seems to have accomplished a lot of positives. He is accused of souperism but it seems the Catholic hierachy were a bunch of tossers as well.
    Just goes to show no single source can automatically be trusted.
Which one to believe?? Also in what way does souperism on one small island represent events in the rest of Ireland?

That is why for history I prefer interpretations to be fully qualified and presented in grey - not black and white.


http://irelandbyways.com/top-irish-peninsulas/the-west/the-western-isles/achill-island-co-mayo/4/