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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
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Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (27)
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Info: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
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Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
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Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
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Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


Musket 14 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Rahere 14 Nov 14 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM
Dave MacKenzie 14 Nov 14 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Rahere 14 Nov 14 - 06:42 PM
Elmore 14 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 14 - 04:30 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 15 Nov 14 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 09:54 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 15 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 02:58 PM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Brian Grayson 10 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Shhh.. Quiet Keith, you are showing yourself up. You dearly want to talk with the big boys but sadly, you are out of your depth now. The glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war has been put to bed in this thread, we are discussing the futility, waste, lies, callousness, indifference and shame of war.

Western civilisation... Cue Ghandi quote.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM

No glory or pomp from me, but it is an insult to the dead to claim it was all a futile waste.
The cost as terrible but the cruel aggressor had to be stopped.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:48 AM

Not an insult, just an uncomfortable truth. It would be even more insulting to think such actions were worthwhile and an option today.

We have enough on with Putin's expansion rhetoric and Cameron's reminding him how we deal with imperialist aggressors.

Lest we forget? I think some politicians are missing the point. Or, more chillingly, might be getting it hence the drive to sanitise the waste of a generation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 12:30 PM

It was worthwhile to resist a ruthless invading oppressor, and we should be grateful to those who were prepared to fight for us.
It is truly insulting so suggest that they were just too stupid to know what they were fighting for or to understand the cause, or to suggest that their cause was worthless.
It was not.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM

I've an idea - whilst this thread is still narrowly above the BS line - let's talk about Eric Bogle again..

I've been checking out his website and various other internet activites.

Mr Bogle has a great sense of humour, and doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.

I wonder how he actually feels about his more extremist over dramatic fans
who have currently whipped themselves up so defensively hysterical & doolally on his behalf...???

With callous disregard for the harm they may be causing
this well intentioned, though slightly misguided, welfare charity fundraiser.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:15 PM

PFR
I've tried to be reasonable so far. But when you twist the facts and try to spin your way out like this, you drop to an entire new lower level of pondlife. I too can be abusive, you sick imitation of a cordwanglers mooly. When you have no standards to work from bar a pale palimsest of patriotism, becoming an atavistic avatar of avarice, you appear to be a derisory delusion of a donkey's donut.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM

Rahere - you are a very interesting but somewhat oddly unfathomable bloke...???

At least Musk has made it clear he is in fact 3 entirely different people...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:41 PM

I had the misfortune to be at Wembley last Sunday when Ms Stone sang something that was only just recognizable as Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" (at least she go the title right). Her performance seemed to be almost entirely about herself, and when I had the opportubity to watch the live transmission when I eventually got back home, the sound mixing had raised it to probably the second worst version I have ever heard, redeemed at least partially by Jeff Beck's guitar playing.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:42 PM

Me, I'm me. Not three different people, but I do try to give my moneysworth.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

Although there are posts in this thread with which I agree, I find it, for the most part,seriously annoying.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM

We may be different people but tend to be consistent in our ripping the piss out of absurdity and inflated egos.

Or put another way, if we polled the idea, three votes to say carnage and irresponsible poor leadership is supported by historical facts and eye witness accounts.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:30 AM

The historians are clear and unanimous.
The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM

No Mans Land - Wembley!

Another performnce from Joss Stone & Jeff Beck - No Mans Land is at about 7 minutes!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:29 AM

Signers of the petition have been sent an update from Bob Banks, who initiated it. It concerns a response from the British Legion. In the ordinary run of things I would have posted a link to what he says, but for some reason it won't work.

Therefore I've posted his entire message below.

Talk about banging your head against a brick wall!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
British Legion petition reaches 5000: British Legion response

Bob Banks

Derbyshire, United Kingdom

14 Nov 2014 — We now have more than 5,000 signatures: thank you so much for taking the time for sign. Reading the hundreds of comments really encourages me, that such a wide range of people: ex-Army officers, British Legion members, peace campaigners, pacifists, musicians, non-musicians, young and old, have come together on this. We may differ on many things but we share an abhorrence of war, and have come together, determined to get this message out.

Less encouraging has been the response of the British Legion. In response to press coverage, they chose to put out a statement saying that the petition is based on "a selective and misleading interpretation of a letter written by Eric Bogle to fRoots music magazine. When read in its entirety, [this letter] confirms that the Legion legitimately obtained rights to … Joss Stone's version of the song, that she and Jeff Beck were entitled to re-arrange it, and that their version does not 'glorify' war."

This statement, claiming that the petition was based on Eric Bogle's letter, is simply untrue: Eric Bogle had not even sent his letter when I published the petition. The petition simply does not suggest that the Legion didn't have "rights" to record or "re-arrange" the song. (In fact, legally, they don't need to obtain rights, as long as they pay the royalties.) And nowhere does it say that their version "glorifies" war.

When I phoned the British Legion to explain this, their spokesperson refused to accept it, repeated his assertion that our petition is "incorrect", insisted that we are a small minority, and that the petition is a "distraction". (From the "important" business of selling the single.) I would have asked how ending war can be seen as a "distraction". Isn't it one of the most important challenges facing our planet, and wouldn't most actual members of the armed forces, and those who have lost loved ones in war, feel this more than anyone? But unfortunately he put the phone down before I could question this.

On a more positive note, June Tabor (whose recording of the song is so moving) has said: "Thank-you for drawing my attention to this travesty. It goes nicely with the ceramic poppies. I have of course signed the petition. Whatever next - re-writing Wilfred Owen with a happy ending?"

I am still awaiting a response from Chris Simpkins, Director General of the British Legion, to whom the petition is addressed. I will continue to chase this up, and send out one final message, passing this on. In the meantime, of course, do feel free to take this forward in any way you wish.

Thanks and best wishes,

Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW. I note that the BL has landed itself in another fine mess; collaborating with Sainsburys over their Christmas ad. It exploits the 1914 Christmas truce, on one of the few occasions when a grain of sanity crept into the ranks of the soldiers on both sides.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:54 AM

"The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here."
Sir Max hastings - the "historian" you have based your case on certainly seems to
Jim Carroll

SPECTATOR
Why does Max Hastings have such a hatred for the British military?
David Crane is taken aback by the particular contempt Max Hastings appears to reserve for the British at the outbreak of the first world war
Catastrophe: Europe Goes to War, 1914 Max Hastings
Collins, pp.628, £30, ISBN: 9780307597052
One of the great problems for any historian writing of 1914 and the slide into conflict is that everyone knows the causes of the first world war and those of us who don't still imagine that we do. It is clear that no historian can simply ignore the causes and get straight down to the fighting, but with the best will in the world it is hard not to feel like some poor Easyjet passenger, stranded on a Gatwick runway and sadly watching the precious take-off slot slipping further into the distance while the cabin crew go though the familiar old pre-flight safety instructions that they know perfectly well nobody is listening to.
Serbian ambition, the internal incoherence of the Hapsburg empire, the Kaiser, Alsace-Lorraine , the 'first blank cheque', the 'second blank cheque,' Pan-Slavism, Ulster, mobilisation, uncertainty over Britain's intentions, fear of decadence, fear of Russia, fear of socialism — none of them can be any more dodged than can the emergency doors or the oxygen mask. But when half the world seems to be writing about what happened in 1914, or should have happened and didn't, it is an uphill struggle to make it fresh or interesting. It is immensely to Max Hastings's credit that he manages to dispose of it all as economically as he does; but this huge, compelling, argumentative bully of a book only really hits its stride when the fighting starts, and the full catastrophe that the 'absurdly amateurish' 19-year-old Gavrilo Princip unleashed with the assassination of the unloved and unlovable Archduke Franz Ferdinand begins to unfold.
'A bullet does not go precisely where one wishes,' was how an apologetic Princip explained away the unintended murder of Franz Ferdinand's morganatic wife, Sophie; but Hastings will have no truck with the idea that a chapter of accidents brought about the war, or with any liberal, guilt-ridden guff about equal moral and political responsibility of the warring belligerents. There is no reason to think that Germany was gunning for war when it gave Austria their 'blank cheque' for the extermination of Serbia, but they were certainly prepared to live with the consequences in the firm belief that they were in a stronger position to win any war against Russia and France in 1914 than they would be in the years ahead.
One of the great strengths of Catastrophe is the space and energy it gives to the less familiar theatres and aspects of the conflict — the barbarism of Austria's Serbia campaign, the chaos of Galicia, East Prussia and Tannenberg, the Home fronts, the North Sea, German 'beastliness' — but like the fortunes of the war itself, the book stands or falls on the Western Front. From the start the Germans had gambled on the rapid and total defeat of France before turning their full attention to the east, and by the time they realised that no number of victories over Russian armies was going to win them the war, they were inextricably mired in the bitter stalemate in France and Belgium to which the strategic fantasies of Schlieffen and his disciples had doomed them.
It is the story of the Germans' bid for a quick and crushing victory in the west, told with an equal richness of detail and sure narrative sweep, that is at the core of Catastrophe, and no story better deserves the name. In the popular imagination the first world war is always going to be associated with the miseries of trench warfare; but the trenches were the consequences of this first fluid phase of the war, a place of troglodytic sanctuary from a war of open movement in which 19th-century strategies and armies led into battle by mounted officers and bands playing came up against modern technology.
Eighteen thousand French and German dead in the Ardennes on 23 and 24 August alone, 329,000 French dead by the end of the year, 800,000 German dead or wounded in the same period, 150,000 Austrian, 16,000 British, more than half of Samsonov's 230,000 Russians, killed, wounded or captured at Tannenberg in the last week of August — it is impossible, or at least it ought to be impossible, to write about the first world war without a sense of moral indignation at the waste and futility and stupidity of its leaders. But Max Hastings saves his particular animus for Britain and her army. There are precious few generals on either side of the war who escape his wrath, but if he is rightly contemptuous of Moltke and dismissive of his army commanders, the British seem to inspire something approaching a hatred — it is the only word to convey the level of hostility — that adds a startlingly bitter edge to this formidably impressive book.
Hastings hates British complacency about her military past, he hates British chauvinism, he hates Britain's patronising attitudes towards her allies, he hates Britain's love of turning retreats — Corunna, Dunkirk, Mons — into moral victories, he hates her continuing penchant for 'gesture politics', and he is damned sure that he is going to leave no treasured national myth unexploded. For the officers who only arrived in France in 1915 there already seemed something heroic about the men of the BEF; but in Hastings's hands even the old saw of lions led by donkeys is turned on its head, with the VCs they win 'soft' VCs, the battles they fight 'little battles' and even Mons — the jewel in the Old Contemptibles' crown — little more than a sideshow of a sideshow.
'Dodgy' battalions in the Ypres Salient, wholesale abandonment of weapons and positions, pusillanimous leadership, a reluctant showing at the Marne, a navy that couldn't fire, politicians who knew nothing of war, it all makes for chastening reading. Anyone travelling down the 900-odd Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemeteries that mark the line of the old Western Front from Ypres to the Aisne might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, but Britain no more won the first world war by herself than it did Waterloo and here is chapter and verse. Whatever happened later, it was the French who saved France in 1914 and saved it in spite of everything our own Sir John French could do to scupper the alliance, and with the centenary looming it is important to be reminded of that. 'No part of the Great War compares in interest with its opening', wrote Churchill, and Hastings does full justice to its appalling drama. He is, unashamedly — thankfully — a historian in the Barbara Tuchman tradition and Catastrophe is rich in unexplored sources from every side of the conflict and every theatre of the war. He is wise, too, to end the book where he does, with the German defeat at Ypres. I, for one, could not take much more and — more to the point — I'm not sure the author could either. If the performance of the old army that died at the First Ypres can reduce him to such frustration, God knows what, the 2nd and 3rd Ypres, Loos, Gallipoli, Kut and the Somme might do.
It is going to be a long five years of grim anniversaries, so triumphalists might want to pencil in 8 August 2018 — Ludendorff's 'black day of the German army' — for the next centenary we can really look forward to.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM

Easyjet passengers stranded on an Alicante runway!!!!!

It happens!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

"Is one's priority to be with taste or with profit for good cause? Not a simple one to answer, it seems to me."

Is moral and ethical principle to be ignored while making that decision MtheGM?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Just listened to the Joss Stone/Jeff Beck record again - 3 times actually, really enjoyed it!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

Right from the start I was under the error of thinking this petition originated directly from STW coalition HQ.
A few days ago I went back to stopwar.org and re- read more carefully
and then realised the petition was actually set up by just one bloke,
Bob Banks, of Derbyshire.

Stopwar.org is a seriously meaningful pressure group with heavy weight credentials.
I haven't a clue who Bob from Derbyshire is...

"Supporters of the Coalition, whether organisations or individuals, will of course be free to develop their own analyses and organise their own actions.
But there will be many important occasions when united initiatives around broad stop the war slogans
can mobilise the greatest numbers.
"

Personally, I'm still not convinced of the worth of this petition.
At further risk of sticking my neck out as an irritating voice of dissent.....

Call me overcautious, call me cynical, call me a ***,
call me whatever you like...

But awkward questions really do need to be asked.....


Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?

What are his real motives and objectives for this petition ?

What actually does he hope to achieve ?

What's in it for him ?


.. and please, let's not get into any petulant "If you're not with us you're against us"
" if you don't support this petition you must be a pro war nationalist militarist...etc..." nonsense.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:16 PM

"Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?"
Does it matter - does everybody have to be a superstar to recognise anodyne crap?
I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1 and I'd sign without asking for an I.D.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

Jim - that's where I can't agree...

To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance..

"I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1"

Seriously ?, how can a bunch of ill advised pop performers really have any significant bearing
on the reality of how we respect and mourn any lives wasted in war...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:35 PM

"To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance.."
Not where and wy it took place, it wasn't
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:58 PM

Jim - that's a very interesting point you raise.. the context...

See, from my point of view, if I wanted to get angry and focus my underlying resentments..

I'd be more inclined to attack the the overwhelming religious and royal aspects
of that commemoration service / variety show...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM

It amazes me that you all have nothing better to do than whinge over a record!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 PM

Music is entertainment. That said, it can be used to push a point. Bogle pushed his point and it was abused by commercial interests.

Get over it.

If you have any vitriol, save it for those who damn the dead by claiming they were well led and died for a good cause.

They are the sick ones here, not a soul singer and rock guitarist.


The argument is here -mod


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM

Off on a different tack entirely..

If anyone knows how to contact Edthefolkie, I'd love to get hold of a copy/pic of his poster from the 1974 Enterprise Folk Club - I was one of the residents then with Don (he was Don then...) Bonito. Ta muchly!

Brian Grayson
beegee1921@hotmail.com


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