The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM

Conrad, I know you mean well, but, this time it's serious, and it's on our side of the pond. We really don't need your small world view of grass roots activities, laudible though they may be as a theory.
It's not just a Local Folk programme that's under threat here, It's every single specialist music. To be replaced by MOR Crap.
It's up to us Brits to fight this. Muddying the discussion with talk about dumbing down artists venues etc, is far from helpful at the moment.
Thanks, but No Thanks.

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM

Ralphie, it's up to the mudcat mod, who apparently moved the entire contents of Conrad's new separate thread to this one,
to please show the good grace to rectify this swamping of well intentioned but not entirely relevant posts..

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:51 PM

I fully understand- its what I do.

In an earlier thread of amazing duration many argued for the preservation of the folk world as a small, specialized world that does not need to grow.

I think cancellation of this program should render that argument absurd.

The folk music world needs to grow and the way it does so is by way of increasing access. We need to draw lessons from the demise of folkwaves. The main lesson is that the folk world can not continue as a specialized lifeway. It needs to be more accessible and more politically diverse.

Whenever a government cuts something of value then those promoting that which has been cut has not been doing something right. It has not favorably influenced the powers of its importance. This does not mean it has to fundamentally change its contents but maybe change the way it is perceived. Bringing more people in would help but other subtle things can help as well. Often the problem is political perception. Why are folkies perceived as left wingers for example even though there is nothing really left wing about the music?

Politicos also tend to react to numbers. I was shouted down here by people telling me repeatedly that it is ok to remain small and exclusive. This does not help build numbers.

It is not a UK issue- believe me that even with the cuts your folk programming is much better than we have. Our local bluegrass folk all moved to digital radio and is not easily available except on line. We all have to work on it.

You cant just complain or lament. You have to find ways to make folk music indespensible- open it up, lower venue costs, remove any barrier to new people coming in, get everybody singing not just pros.
Demonstrate the economic importance of selling folk cds around the world via bbc programming. I think this is a big one. Folkwaves helped sell me on a large number of groups and sent me out to spend more than I normally would have.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 01:56 PM

Thanks erbert! Yes that is another problem they werent meant for here.
I am a listener to the show and I sent out a card and also contacted the relevant offices. The bbc is worldwide. We are part of one big folk community but our community needs to make sure that there is never anything blocking its growth.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:29 PM

Resonance FM is a London based arts radio station with internet broadcast anywhere and podcasts. Thursday, 16 December, 14:00 – 15:00
"The Traditional Music Hour brings you the best traditional music from the British Isles". I haven't listened to know how traditional but it sounds promising and most of their output is superb (try Voice on Record as an example).

http://resonancefm.com/schedule

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

I see it had a mention Here

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:48 PM

Thanks, Conrad.

Subject: RE: The end of Folkwaves
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 02:49 PM

Shep Woolley does his own programme

http://www.expressfm.com/rooting-around-293063

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:20 PM

Anybody fancy going on this program tonight and talking about it. Radio Derbyshire covering Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire
21:00–00:00 Rob Underwood
14/12/2010
Amanda Bowman sits in. Join the conversation on 0845 303 9303 (local rate). .

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM

Just to let Conrad and the rest of the people know - community broadcasting has a number of folk shows and I know my own does exactly what he is asking for. I have a facebook page for the show, my own F/book page is open during the show and I do my best to answer any comments and requests on air.

There are a number of community radio folk shows which do much the same. You can find this week's playlist from last Friday under "Thank Goodness It's Folk" either on here or on Facebook.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

Hmmm...specialist and minority music broadcasting is on the way out because there aren't enough of us who want to hear it...but look at who the Beeb want to recruit:

Senior Producer, Classical Music

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Dennis Cooke ........Down Under
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:37 PM

So sad to hear this news, I have enjoyed this program via the Internet for alot of years. To me it is the TOP Folk Show. It will be very sadly missed.....

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:38 AM

Seems to me we can write letters til we're blue in the face -- it's not likely to garner much media attention...

I am wondering what would happen if all the folkies in England decided to participate in an act of civil disobedience & not pay their licence fees -- on the grounds that the BBC is consistently axing all the programmes that interest them.

What can they do to you if you don't pay your licence fee & refuse to pay the fine? Can you end up in jail? Hundreds (maybe even thousands?) of people risking jail might be more "interesting" than people writing letters...

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:13 AM

Hi Vicky - great idea - but I don't pay a licence fee!!

There is a built in assumption that people own a TV set. I don't.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:15 AM

That last guest was me!

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 08:53 AM

Don't think I saw a link to this.
BBC 2010/2011

Seems we (50 to 75) are the target local radio age group and the music will be more closely linked to Radio 1.

Shurely shome mishtake?

Al

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 12:35 PM

You can find an even more descriptive document here.

You might care to note especially paragraph 5.3 where "Folkwaves" ticks all the boxes perfectly.

The question then is - does this document have any meaning and if so who enforces it?

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 02:55 PM

The last programme is going out on Monday 27th December at 7pm. Should we all turn up outside Radio Derby and hold a 'wake' for 'the last show' and vocalise our support for the continuation of Folkwaves in some form (albeit if it has to go out at a different time). It's likely to be a light news evening just after Christmas s...o maybe we can get some media coverage (including by the BBC?!?!). Perhaps we could make it into an impromptu folk singing event?! The Flowerpot pub and live music venue is nearby. Perhaps we can use that as a meeting point from say 6pm. What do you think?

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:04 PM

How do we know you will turn up GUEST?

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,John Greenwood (Guest)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:11 PM

I am floating this as an idea. If others express the intention to come along I would certainly be there.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM

I think the big problem is going to be the weather.

I am in North Lincolnshire and if we get this next round of bad weather, we coul dwell be marooned again.

It probably needs a commitment from Derbyshire.

It's a brilliant idea.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM

I just rang this program and they refused to let me talk about Celtic Fringe and Folkwaves. They have a phone in situation

Covers East Midlands
Radio Derby, Lincolnshire, leicestershire, Nottinghamshire
21:00
–00:00
...15/12/2010
Amanda Bowman . Join the conversation on 0845 303 9303 (local rate). .

Please start phoning.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM

Just a late night thought.
If the BBC axe all the minority musics from the airwaves....
Why not do a boycott. Every artist who is asked to perform, says NO!
Cambridge Fest....(and all the others) say NO!
Think about it people...Have you ever earned any money from Radio Broadcasts....?
Let us all Just turn our backs and say,,,,Thanks for the offer, but...No Thank You.
Then let the powers that be justify there existance..
We've got nothing to lose...

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Sid F
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 09:21 PM

I have not paid the license fee for several years as I got rid of my tv in protest at the BBC's biased and rather stupid political and cultural coverage plus their ridiculous extortionary and thuggish license enforcement wing. They send me letters - I send them back. Screw them - there is plenty of stuff on the internet if you look - and I think that local community radio might be a good way of getting minority musics out there. Resonance FM in London is very good for a variety of out/experimental musics/art and some folk music, for example. The BBC is an outmoded, embarrasing, top heavy organisation and hopefully will not survive in its present form much longer in a decentralised digital age. Radio 3 is not bad - the rest - forget it. I would be quite happy to pay a subscription for what I want to listen to - when they catch up, or someone with the will in government scraps the BBC in its present form.
Re Folkwaves, the BBC obviously regard this show (along with the jazz show from Nottingham which I listen to occasionally) as appealing to a small audience so a soft target. Top down, arrogant - but anyone who has studied the BBC has known this for years anyway, so it comes as no surprise. Refuse to pay!

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:57 AM

Never owned a TV.

@ Sid - write to the TV licensing - you can do it as the occupier no need to say your name - and withdraw "Implied Right of Access".

They totally stop bothering you then. No more letters, no visits, nothing.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:53 AM

But writing to them will cost you a stamp.
I used an online form to tell them to stop bothering me. They still imply that they will send out a detector van to check up on me.
They might find that difficult as I am more than 1/4 mile from any public road.

I don't use Facebook as I mistrust the security of it and so it will be letters or phone calls or emails in order to contact them as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,judy hardman
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:24 AM

I think the mass protest at radio Derby is the best suggestion for raising public awareness of what is going on.

The trouble is we need to know there'll be a reasonable number there, otherwise if we send press releases etc and only half a dozen protesters turn up, we could have shot ourselves in the foot by proving we are indeed a minority audience who don't need to be super-served (whatever that is. yes I got the same letter from Simon Cornes)

So who's up for the wake? I will if you will.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:56 AM

I will endevour to be in the Flowerpot on Monday 27th @ 6pm.
The Flowerpot's a good place to be, anyway.
I am on an IT support rota that day, so may be interupted.
The other proviso is that there is no voilence or vandalism. But, protest songs more than welcome.
Dave B.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:16 AM

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

They are not axing all the minority music progs In fact the West Indian and the Gospel Music have been expanded to three hours each on Sunday.
Could there be just a little bit of Racial Discrimination here?

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 10:28 AM

I don't think so, Nick.
Just glad they're expanding some real music.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:20 AM

"West Indian and the Gospel Music have been expanded to three hours each on Sunday.
Could there be just a little bit of Racial Discrimination here?"

Knowing what a sensitive issue that is, especially in the midlands..
It's surprising certain usual factions from the murkier extremist regions of the political spectrum
haven't already raised their ugly voices here carping and inflaming passions for their own hate fueled ends.

Do you know what, I hazard a guess it just might be because
"West Indian and Gospel Music" has a popular happy pulsing beat and spirit
and is really very enjoyable for a majority of all sorts of folks to listen to at any time day or night.

But, it's still a great unjust shame, that for whatever cynical profiteering corporate suits reason,
'folk' music has to suffer complete abandonment from local airwaves.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM

I guess that if I were West Indian or a fan of West Indian music or Gospel music then this would probably be good news - however, I am neither. I am a lover of 'English' folk music and would very much like the opportunity to listen to 'my' type of music introduced by people who know something about 'my' music. I have been denied this opportunity by 'pap' producers (BBC programmers). It is extremely unlikely that I will listen to local radio again.
Disappointed
EX listener

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Ian Carter
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:03 PM

Just got a response from the Beeb, drivelling as usual:

Dear Mr Carter

Thanks for contacting us about 'Folkwaves'.

We raised your concerns with BBC East Midlands who reply:

"Thanks for contacting us about 'Folkwaves' on BBC Radio Derby.

"We know it is always very disappointing when a programme you enjoy comes to an end, but we can assure you we do not take such decisions lightly.

"We have been reviewing our evening schedule for some time, aware that society has changed considerably in the decades since some of these programmes began, and also aware of the changes that have taken place this year in local commercial radio.

"Although the specialist music programmes have been very popular with a loyal core of listeners, we feel that we now need to provide a programme that appeals to a wider number of licence fee payers in the East Midlands, especially as there are no longer any local or regional programmes available on commercial radio in the evenings. There are many more people available to listen to radio in the evening now, either because they're wanting something to listen to while using their computers, or because they are going to and from shift work, or just because the family don't all gather round to watch television together in the evening in the way they used to.

"We also need to consider that a programme should be able to respond to breaking news in our region or big events like the recent snow, which at the moment we are unable to do.

"Whilst we understand some of these current programmes have a large following around the world on the internet, our first responsibility has to be to the majority of licence fee payers in the East Midlands, and it is with them in mind that we are making this change."

We'd also like to assure you that we've registered your complaint on our audience log. This is a daily report of audience feedback that's circulated to many BBC staff, including members of the BBC Executive Board, channel controllers and other senior managers.

Thanks again for taking the time to contact us.

Kind Regards

BBC Audience Services

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM

Same old garbage Ian.

I rang BBC Audience Services to complain. The woman was very good listener, but when I cam to the point wher I asked her to log my complaint etc, she said that the computer had just gone down and I would need to ring back later and do it again.

How incredibly convenient!

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:14 PM

To sid, Dave Eyre, and eveyone else who does not possess a television (why should you indeed)
The very fact that you own a computer connected to the Internet...(and you must have one, otherwise, you wouldn't be sending messages here!)
Means that you have the capability of watching the tele on your computer.
So, you have to pay the license fee.
Yes, I know you don't, but...thems the rools!
The only way out of this, is to completely cut youself off from the world, (electronically).
Wasn't my idea. Sorry.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

Are you sure about that Ralphie?

I thought watching TV over the internet did not need a licence, but if you can come up with the piece of evidence, I would appreciate that.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM

The offence one commits is watching a broadcast "simultaneously" as it is broadcast.

If I as a football fan watch "Match of the Day" live on a Saturday then I commit an offence. If on the other hand I watch the repeat on I-player then I don't.

Simple really and I apologise for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

Tmorrow the inestimable Mr Ralph Jordan of this parish and 35 years at the BBC and the equally inestimable Mr Peat of the programme "Folkwaves" on BBC Radio Derby will be submitting themselves to the intense interrogation skills of me.

"Thank Goodness It's Folk" 10.00 am - 12 noon. 93.2 FM and www.sheffieldlive.org

Ralph and Mick will appear separately 'cos we only have one phone line into the studio. It is after all community radio.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:54 PM

Ya know, guys, if only you lot had come over to the BBC board when I had the 'live' Folkwaves threads going...

Do some of you remember the days when one thread reached over 500 posts and Mel closed it down, saying the BBC computer couldn't cope with such vast threads? (complete poppycock of course, as other threads reached similar numbers..)

And we even managed to get a 'listen again' button put on Folkwaves, due to the popularity shown on the F&A board....

Then, it all went bellyup and the usual gang, some of whom are now on here whingeing and whining their hearts out, set their sights on getting me banned from the BBC...

Well, they succeeded, and with that they also lost one of the main advocates for Folkwaves and for English Folk Music in general.

I've never understood this small world that continually aims to shoot itself in the foot, succeeding every single time...

WHY didn't you ALL join in those threads????

WHERE were you when I called for support, for Folkwaves and Genevieve Tudor's show as well....and Radio Britfolk, as was?????


Maybe, just maybe, if you'd all acted differently Folkwaves would now be protected, because it would have been recognised as having so many devout followers, lighting up the BBC F&A board.....but nope, you all chose to mess things up...

And now....you moan??????


Well, I'm really sorry that Folkwaves is going, REALLY sorry, but you guys have to understand that folk music can no longer be reserved only for those within The Inner Sanctum, jumping on those from outside who dare to raise their voices in sheer joy at the music!

This music MUST be allowed out to as big an audience as you can get, or else, just like Folkwaves, it will die....

It's why I used to shout SO bloody loudly...but sadly, I got drowned out by bitterness and jealousy...

And now, the best folk programme on the BBC is about to be axed....

What a sorry state for English folk music to have reached...

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:24 PM

Dave - well done. I shall listen to that with interest. It will be good to hear what Mick in particular has to say from the hot seat. In the meantime, I'm going to set about drafting a reply to the BBC Complaints personnel's standard response (as above) to my complaint of several days ago, and a reasoned missive to the head powers that be.

Incidentally, I was a bit perturbed to see in yesterday's paper that considerations are being given to ceasing to broadcast on BBC tv channels 3 and 4 ... which of course would mean the removal of the vast majority of any good folk music programming that we've been receiving lately. (Mind you, as this was in one of the tabloids I reserve total trust in the reported fact until something a bit more authoratative appears.)

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:32 PM

I was wondering when Lizzie would re-surface!
And as much as I applaud her for her enthusiasm with regards to all things musical. There are times when a more soft approach might achieve more than mindless ranting.
I feel honoured that Dave has asked me to shove my 2 Ha'pporth on his programme in the morning.
I hope I will give an informed and considered opinion re the BBC decision about, not only Folkwaves, but all minority musics on Local Radio throughout the country. All soon to be axed.
So, with respect Lizzie. Ranting will definitely not help.
I'm not for one minute saying thet I can change the situation either.
But, at least I will put my point with calm and considered thought.
I just wish I could talk to a BBC representative..Sadly, there is no-one available. Quelle Surprise!

Subject: Save Folkwaves on BBC Radio East Midlands Protest
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 07:57 PM

Please come along on to the BBC Radio Derby offices on Monday evening 20th December 2010 at 19:00 hrs and join the 'Save Folkwaves' facebook campaign members who will be gathering outside the studios to listen to the penuiltimate Folkwaves radio programme broadcast between 1900 hrs - 2100 hrs.
Bring a radio, bring an instrument, bring your voice!....more on Facebook

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=169352206434131

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 03:25 AM

Good luck Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,OLDNICKILBY
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:03 AM

"Licence fee payers" I thought that radio needed no licence

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:07 AM

Please come along on to the BBC Radio Derby offices on Monday evening 20th December 2010 at 19:00 hrs and join the 'Save Folkwaves' facebook campaign

Why?

You are totally stupid and nieve if you think it will make any kind of difference.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,S.G.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:47 AM

I doubt that we are stupid and naieve: there may be no chance of changing any minds at the BBC at present, but it plays right into their hands if we go quietly. It weould seem to me to be an act of cowardice to prove the BBC's point for them. I repeat what I said earlier; doing nothing is not an option.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:23 PM

It may not make a difference but it will build community! And the presenters will appreciate it I am sure. Bring along a few drinks and have one or several in my name for them!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:28 AM

I am going down Monday evening. Happy to do so.

Subject: RE: The end of 'Folkwaves' on BBC
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM

And I believe that is a 200 which I claim!