BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy

Subject: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM

Rosenbergs' sons admit father was spy ... check the linky for the story

the story

I have always been fascinitated by this rather tragic incident in time ... well, now the truth is out.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

There was a smattering of 'news' when a co-defendant admitted as much earlier this week. Plus I think David Greenglass long ago maintained he lied in a deposition incriminating Mrs. Rosenberg, Ethel, in order to protect her sister his wife.
The latest wrinkle was that the prosecution held the death penalty over them both in order to get them to give evidence, but they held firm.
The common wisdom is that Julius was an active spy and Ethel was not, but was aware of what Julius was up to and endorsed it.
The main provider of atomic secrets was, of course, Klaus Fuchs, a German Communist who was also one of the scientists who came over with the English group and worked in Los Alamos.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:03 AM

Excellent article and interview with the two sons.

They do however maintain that their mother did no spying, although she was probably aware that her husband was an active spy. And they do maintain that the death penalty was too extreme a punishment for the actual spying that was done.

It's probably more difficult too judge this crime in the context of the time. In our time major international spies are routinely swapped after a brief time in prison.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

During the early days of glasnost, about 20 years ago, the Russians opened their historical documents to many groups of Western writers and historians.

Records showed that the Rosenbergs were given many awards for their contributions to the A-bomb program and called "heros of the people". The revelation that they were guilty is at least that old.

Interesting (and off topic) was a little story some of the researchers found. There was a train wreck in Arizona......1970s I believe, that was hard to explain. The track was straight and not heavily used or abused.

The railroad management blamed the union boys for sabotage and the workes blamed management for poor maintanance policy.

Actually, it was an intentional act by Russian dirty trick squads that they had running around the country. These guys had fun causing any kind of problem they thought would keep the American people disturbed. Strange world, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: MAG
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

Nope, the Russian records show no evidence the Rosenbergs got any such awards.

Greenglass was Ethel's brother, not brother-in-law. He never thought his sister would side with her husband instead of him, but he was wrong.

The Rosenburgs are dead because they refused to name names. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM

None of this is news. It has been confirmed years ago that Julius was an Atomic Spy, and that Ethel, at the very least, abetted him.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: sapper82
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM

Like the Bentley case over on this side of the pond, the Rosenberg is a case where the verdict was correct and the penalty was carried out in accordance with the law as it stood at the time, justice was not done by the executions.

Both these cases, together with the Timothy Evans and Ruth Ellis cases are what put me against capital punnishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

"The Rosenburgs are dead because they refused to name names"
.... rather severe sentencing for Julius and especially Ethel for refusing to name names ... but, times were different back then.

"It has been confirmed years ago that Julius was an Atomic Spy"
.. were's the evfidence of your confirmation John?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

biLL, thanks for the link. Very interesting. I have always been interested in this case as they were killed the year I was born. I always thought it seemed very harsh, esp. for Ethel, to be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

In what sense were Bentley's and Ethel Rosenberg's death sentences "correct," Sapper82? A more fitting term for both cases would be "preposterous."

Bentley's conviction and sentence relied on the statement "Let him have it," the significance of which was much debated in his trial, but which in fact he never made. Nothing was proved in Ethel Rosenberg's trial that could have warranted the death penalty in any civilised society, and so far as I know - PDQ's fantasies notwithstanding - nothing has emerged to justify that sentence retrospectively.

The fact that the sons have "confessed" their father's guilt doesn't count for much in my book. Their views are not likely to be more reliable than anyone else's. In the present instance it is the change of heart by Sobell a few days ago that is significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

Thanx Kat

The immediate victims in this case were the Roenberg's young sons, Michael and Robert.

They have carried the weight of this for most of their lives. Michael has been searching for the turth, and now his quest has been answered.

I would also like to say in this thread that I salute the Meeropols for their kindnes and humanity adopting and raising these 2 boys, when many at that time would not have anything to do with the Rosenberg children lest they where themselves put under the suspicious eyes of the FBI.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

Peter K (Fionn),

Please remove your head from your ass. I said that the Rosenbergs were guilty and that was confirmed by numerous documents in Russia.

I said nothing about the death penalty so please do not make up quotes. Several Mudcatters do that and they are also jerks.

About the execution of Ethel Rosenberg, I do not believe it was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

biLL, here are some:

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/inte_19440921.html
www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROS_ACCT.HTM

Also:
"The Rosenberg File"--Rodash & Milton
"The Man Behind the Rosenbergs"--Feklsov

One the the defenses used by the Rosenbergs was that they were spying for a US ally. I guess by using that logic, Jonathon Pollard should not have been convicted of spying for an ally.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

Thanx John ... will be checking these out.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:39 PM

good novel about this case by e l doctorrow - Daniel's Song

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

"Daniel's Song" .... yes, an excellent book.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:18 PM

While the novel may be good, it is still just a novel.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:02 PM

"it is still just a novel."

I very well know it was a novel ..... but I still consider it a good book.   

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM

"The Rosenburgs are dead because they refused to name names. That's all."


                   And Ronald Reagan and Burl Ives did name names, and they did very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:37 AM

They're both dead, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:39 AM

Riginslinger, "And Ronald Reagan...did name names, and...did very well."

It is factually incorrect that Reagan named names before HUAC in 1947. He did speak out forcefully against communism in Hollywood, as President of SAG. I checked over twenty sites from Google, but did not find any testimony where he actually 'peached on his fellows.

I offer this in the spirit of historical accuracy, only, not necessarily as a defense of HCUA (the proper acronym.)

One actor, now deceased, and whom I enjoyed much, did name names. I will not mention him, out of deference to my brother who was a friend of one of this actor's sons. The actor later went on to great fame.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:46 AM

Sorry, PDQ, maybe what I wrote didn't read as I intended. I was not meaning to suggest you supported the death penalty; I meant only that even with your fantasies taken into account, nothing has ememrged since the trial to justify executing Ethel Rosenberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Eisenhower executed them in '53. Much of what was presented in the case was circumstantial evidence. Ike rode on the wave of cold-war hysteria. They could have been
jailed and not killed but Ike was a military man and this was his solution.

I submit that the children of the Rosenbergs may not have all the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

Such unpleasant and rude ways people have online.... it makes me think of stopping visiting forums like these. "Please remove your head from your ass" - would you say that to a family member, a friend or a colleague? That's just nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:27 PM

Say what to whom?

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:13 PM

The fact that they were Jewish was of primary concern for the FBI and moted in a memo I saw, that because they were Jews an example must be made. The expose' aried on PBS about 11 years ago.

The evidence of the A bomb drawing is about as technical as what is in High School text books today.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

I'm not surprised at that revelation; after all, Jonathan Pollard received a harsher sentence than the Walker Family which spied for Russia, shortly before. And Casper Weinberger (he of recent Jewish background) insisted on making an example of Pollard.

But way more technical than textbooks of the 1950s. It's all relative my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:40 AM

In case anyone wants to move this up above the line, Abel Meeropol, who adopted the Rosenberg kids, wrote "Strange Fruit".

Subject: RE: BS: Rosenbergs, Julius was a spy
From: Felipa
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM

reviving the thread as today is the anniversary of the Rosenberg execution.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rosenbergs-executed (19 June 1953)