BS: Give em shit, Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

He may not be as dumb as Bush, but he's just as nuckin' futs.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:25 PM

Why he's so dumb he sits on the TV and watches the sofa.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:39 PM

"Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?"

Are there any countries where people have the option of giving up their citizenship just because they no longer live there? Maybe there are, but my understanding is that the normal position is that that they don't have that option. (And that has been the basis on which disaffected citizens of countries such as the UK and the USA in times of conflict have been jailed and even executed.)

My brother was born in Argentina, and the family moved back to Europe when he was about three. Many years later he was thinking of paying a visit to out relatives out there, and he learned that he was liable for miitary service. He had to wait until he was middle-aged and no longer eligible to serve in the armed forces before he was able to pay a visit to the country he had been born in.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:23 PM

It really does seem a bit ungrateful of the USA - they get Syria to do their dirty work for them, torture and so forth - and then they turn round and treat them as an enemy.

They don't even offer to let the Syrians use Guantanamo Bay, if it would be a more convenient place to do the torturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:51 PM

If you read the whole article instead of quoting part of it out of context, you will understand that it is U.S. derived information and information from other sources that is being used to keep Arar on the watch list.

I hope he sues the U.S. so that they will stop arresting and detaining innocent people.

What evidence do you have, Dickey, that makes you so sure that Arar deserved to be tortured?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:55 PM

:P Peace, I was kidding, and referring to:

Further suggestions of a hidden agenda focussed on the Alliance's direct democracy proposals, which were revealed to require a referendum on any proposal supported by a petition signed by 3% of Canadian voters. Some asserted that "special interest" groups would use the low requirements to put contentious subjects to a national referendum. The proposal was satirized by Rick Mercer of This Hour has 22 Minutes who started a mock online petition calling for a referendum on whether Day should change his first name to Doris. The petition garnered more than a million signatures. /end quote/ <--- this was in 2000, but it stuck with me and I've never not been able to snicker at him since.
Clicky here for info on Day

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:01 PM

Peace has no TV, so he was unfamiliar with Rick Mercer's campaign to rub Stock's nose in his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:06 PM

Ah. That'd explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:49 PM

First he was detained due to information from Canada.

Second there is other information that the US thinks is sufficient to keep him on the no fly list. They are attempting to share it with Canada as soon as they respond.

And he was not an innocent citizen as you keep claiming.

The trouble started in Tunisia before he departed for Canada:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
MAHER ARAR,
Plaintiff

"...in an investigation by "Project A-O Canada," a Canadian team
investigating terrorist suspects in Ottawa. According to the
letter, Arar was contacted by an investigator with Project A-O
Canada on January 22, 2002, during which time he was in Tunisia.
On January 25, Arar told the investigator "he could perhaps be
available" on Monday, July 28 for an interview. See LaHood
Letter at 2. Later that day, however, Arar's attorney "contacted
the investigator to advise him that there would need to be
parameters for the interview." Id. at 2-3. The attorney
"requested that the interview take place in his office and that
Mr. Arar's statement not be used in proceedings as a substitution
for his actual testimony; clearly the information gathered could
be used for the investigation, and nothing would preclude calling
Mr. Arar to testify." Id. at 3. As a result of these conditions
– which were shared with U.S. officials – and because the
investigation wound up focusing on other areas, Arar was never
contacted again for an interview. See id. The LaHood letter
claims that, in light of plaintiff's decision to exercise his
constitutional right to remain silent, which was known to U.S.
officials, Arar's interrogation within the United States took
place in disregard of Arar and his attorney's request.
To some extent, the contents of the LaHood letter undermine
plaintiff's claim, "on information and belief," that there has
never been, nor is there now, any reasonable suspicion that he
was involved in such activity. Although the account of what
occurred in the Canadian investigation could not give rise to an
adverse inference in a criminal prosecution, the change in Arar's
posture would certainly justify at least some suspicion (and
perhaps reasonable suspicion) on the part of U.S. officials
during their investigation about Arar's activities...."

Why would he need a lawyer in Tunisia? Perhaps if he had cooperated fully with the Canadian investigator in Tunisia the whole thing would never have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:01 AM

"First he was detained due to information from Canada."

That's true, and the Top Cop got the axe (as it were). Sorry, Seiri. As Bobad said, I have no TV so have missed the efforts on Mercer's part to make Stockwell Day appear just as he is. However, it certainly leads to a chilling thought: imagine him and Bush putting their brains together (I know, I know), and deciding matters of importance. That's enough to make a guy take up drinking. Lots.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:11 AM

"The LaHood letter
claims that, in light of plaintiff's decision to exercise his
constitutional right to remain silent, which was known to U.S.
officials, Arar's interrogation within the United States took
place in disregard of Arar and his attorney's request."

Grab a brain, Dickey. If you were a Canadian/Syrian in Tunisia and were contacted by a Canadian team investigating terrorist suspects in Ottawa, don't you think it would be a good idea to get a lawyer?

Too bad the U.S. didn't respect his rights and ignored his attorney.

Just because someone doesn't want to play with you, doesn't give you the right to beat him up. Thats what bullies do.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

If all of this is the fault of the US, How come the same thing happened to the other three?

If Mr Arar had returned to Canada it would have happened to all four.

You keep skipping over the fate of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin. You ignore that and focus only on Arar to defend Canada, and mount a mean spirited attack the US for doing the same thing that the Canadians did with the exception that Canada instructed the US to retain him.

Were you aware of Arar's Syrian citizenship and unfulfilled military obligation when you started this belligerent (as evidenced ny the title) attack? Were you aware of what happened in Tunisia?

If not you don't know all the facts and in large part acting in ignorance.

What happens when you give somebody shit? What do you get in return?

Do you need to be told what to do with your shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:52 AM

So should my brother have gone out to the Argentine to carry out his "unfulfilled military obligation", Dickey?

And you really think that the act of getting a lawyer when the authorities start leaning on you is an indication that you are guilty of something?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:15 AM

I am Canadian with relatives on both sides of the border, 1776 notwithstanding we can even talk to each other if we so choose. If the terrorists had knocked down the CN tower and destroyed other parts of Canada would some Canadians feel the need to worry about some persons rights who is still a citizen of another country. When the twin towers were destroyed with loss of life it created a knee-jerk reaction, if you don't think the reaction would be the same in Canada, then I don't think you know your country very well. Reactions to acts of terrorism usually do result in acts that would not have been done in times of less stress. After 10 years of military service and over 65 years under my belt I do not believe that I have the right to criticise the foreign policy of another country. As for our own countries deeds, at least the present gov't did something, if the previous gov't were in power they would still be forming a commission to assess if there was a need to form a commission to investigate acts of wrongdoing. Give your heads a shake the corrupt liberal gov't hasn't been out of power that long. Remember how many years it took to finally have an inquiry into the liberals theft of millions of dollars?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

Mr able - until our involvement in Afghanistan, terrorists have had no reason to target Canada.

"...would some Canadians feel the need to worry about some persons rights who is still a citizen of another country."

Most Canadians do not discriminate between citizens born here and those who have become citizens through immigration. A citizen is a citizen.

Some Canadians are red-necks and some Canadians are right-wing Conservatives. Luckily you are the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

Quote: "After 10 years of military service and over 65 years under my belt I do not believe that I have the right to criticise the foreign policy of another country." - Able

Really? You don't feel you have the right to criticise the governments of Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Somalia, etc? I believe as a Canadian citizen I have the right to criticise any government's foriegn policy, including that of my own. Whether I am correct in my criticism is another issue.

I also have relatives on both sides of the border, and some of them have dual citizenship, and I would certainly worry about their rights, regardless of their being citizens of another country besides Canada. That the US is the other country instead of Syria should be beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

If I were what you say then I would feel the need to respond in kind to your post, I don't because you obviously don't know this country as well as you think you do. Don't disseminate knowledge from some ivory tower in the city, most of us don't live in the city and we see and hear the things you would relegate to a wild eyed minority. People in the hinterland don't even begin to think like city dwellers.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

Able, with respect, I suggest that not only do you have the right to question the foreign policy of any country in this world--more than that, you have the responsibility to do so. Your remark about city people and country people seeing things differently is, IMO, sophistry. Foolish people see things foolishly regardless where they reside. Smart people likewise. Best regards to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:52 PM

Able, I don't live in the city, and I don't agree with your stance, either. I likely don't agree with Dianavan on everything, but in this instance, except for the redneck comment, which is inflammatory in my opinion, and no doubt elicited your equally inflammatory ivory tower comment, I do.

Frankly, much right-wing conservatism seems mean-spirited to me, but that does not require me to be a Liberal government supporter.

And I would like to know what exactly are you talking about by referring to "we see and hear the things you would relegate to a wild eyed minority". That kind of mysterious comment doesn't add to anyone's understanding of where you're coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

Dickey and able seem to find it very hard to understand that it is possible to be a citizen of more than one country without having any say in it. It's not a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

"until our involvement in Afghanistan, terrorists have had no reason to target Canada."

So there were no Canadians in the Towers then. You'd rather have ago at anything the US does rather than a mysoginist, theocratic, homophobic fascist organisation. I'm alright in Canada, leave me alone, I'll ignore the stonings and the FGM, the hanging of gays. Get to grips with your post modern relativism, yes the US does some dumb stuff but for gods sake open your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM

Stoning and stirring up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Gnu, that was kind of appalling - they don't think they're racist, eh?

Certainly we deal with culture clash where some immigrants are concerned, but it doesn't help when people in positions of authority make blanket assumptions about people who most likely have moved their families here because they like the idea of life in Canada better than their country of origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

Crazyhorse - I don't believe in invading other countries.

If, however, another country invaded us, I would readily take up arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

I was in the military during the Cuban missile crisis and couldn't be more than 5 minutes from a telephone. All the time, I kept wondering what the hell had happened. We were in the position of facing nuclear war and the deaths of millions. Now we are in afghanistan fighting for the rights of women, my contention is that those who feel the need to impose their beliefs on others should join the military pick up their weapon and go fight for their beliefs. Just don't be too bitter if the other guy kills you for his beliefs. Too many people in this day and age are willing to fight to the last drop of someone elses blood, in other words put your money where your mouth is. If you talk the talk then start walking the walk. If I wanted to live in Canada and moved here took out citizenship and wanted to stay then my former country should revoke my citizenship. From my vantage point of over 200 years in North America, it seems to me that far too many so called citizens left their own country moved here and then try to embroil us in their former countries problems. If you feel so much for your old country then perhaps you should return and rectify the wrongs, after all, you do care enough to die for your country don't you. Just don't ask me or mine to die for your country. Take your hate back to your country of origin, people who think North America should spill it's blood to impose western ideals on other countries can't seem to get it through their heads that we will have to kill those people to impose our beliefs. In return, he has to fight back in any way that he can, the world isn't perfect and never will be, but if you do want to make it perfect then you better get your uniform on, pick up your weapon and go fight. If you aren't willing to do this then you are just another heroic horses ass who is willing to fight to the last drop of someone elses blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

The NATO decision to invade Afghanistan was a decision that NATO made. There is a big offensive beginning to build up there on the part of the Taliban. And it will be bloody. I am fed up with Canada sending troops and not sending the necessary support. I am equally fed up with people who think that it's a police action. Fawk! It's a hot war and the present ROE suck. Small-unit warfare can be sustained for short periods of time, but attrition makes longer actions a poor, no, stupid choice. The best the NATO forces can hope for is to fight a defensive war. The machinery just isn't there to do a proper search and destroy, nor is the troop concentration, nor is the ability to fortify positions that HAVE been taken. Thinking that Afghanistan is a piece of cake in terms of pacification is idiotic. I am sure someone somewhere in NATO's structure is aware of the Russian time there. Either do the fuckin' job or get the hell out. BTW, what IS the job that needs to be done in Afghanistan? As in there are about 2,500 Canuck kids there and this guy would like to know exactly what the job is. Anyone here got any idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Bee
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

I certainly don't, Peace. I agree with most of your points to the extent of my weak understanding of military action. I am sorry to say I don't think Harper is much more educated on Afghanistan than I am. I don't much like Harper, but given he's been elected, I'd like to think he had a clue what he's doing besides running off to the place once a year to sun his pudgy white face in front of camera flashes. This government and the one before it have failed to explain to me why young Canadians are dying in Afghanistan. Get them out or put the money in it to get them out with the job (whatever the hell it is) done.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Don LAst
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:30 AM

Canada (this is not a joke) passed a law today that made it explicitly clear that there will be no stoning of women in the public square...


Authorities said that certain immigrants may be functioning under legal concepts of thier home country so we need to be absolutely clear that Canda does not allow certain barbaric practices that some people have grown accustomed to back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:48 AM

MGH:

If he believes Argentina is his homeland he should. Or stay out. It is difficult to have things both ways.

And I don't regard being asked questions constiutues being "leaned on". Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason.

IF Arar had flown directly to Canada would things have turned out differently? Considering the fact that three other "innocent citizens" suffered the same fate at the hands of the Canadians, I don't think so.

Those 3 others are being skipped over in this thread because they cannot be used in this mean spirited attack the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:58 AM

Don LAst @ 01 Feb 07 - 02:30 AM : You are incorrect. Please see my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason.

No point in arguing with that kind of logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

"Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason."


That is real Homeland Security thinking. The USA needs more folks like that. Keep people safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:45 PM

The old, "If you've done nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to hide" con.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:35 PM

able -

The three other cases are now before the Canadian courts.

Arar repeatedly asked that he be sent to Canada rather than Syria.

I guess he thought he had a better chance for justice in Canada than in Syria.

So why did our good friend, the U.S., send him to Syria instead of Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:40 PM

Anyone who refuses to admit their guilt is merely making things worse for themselves.

"Obduracy" is the word that applies in such cases -
"the state or quality of being intractable or hardened".

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

"...Someome only needs a lawyer when they think they are in trouble. The hiring of a lawyer indicate the person needs defending for some reason."


Are not Americans reknowned for being so damned litigious?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:34 PM

But learning about law is pretty suspicious behaviour in any case, especially in someone who isn't a lawyer. I mean, why would anyone want to do that for unless they were up to no good?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

If we're going to elect representatives who write law, and if we're going to be governed by law (ideally), we'd better learn something about law--not that legal jargon makes it easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:34 PM

the only reason the us still maintains arar as a security risk
and does not allow him acces to the us is plain and simple.

to allow him in the US would make his case against the US govt easier.
(and more highprofile) its unlikely he would win but it would open up the whole can of worms of guantanamo and extraordinary renditions to secret camps etc..

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

"Nonetheless, pressure is mounting in the US to make amends to Arar and to allow him to enter the country. Now that the Democrats control both the country's Congress and Senate, concerns that they raise carry more weight. So far, Edward Markey, the Democratic Congressman from Massachusetts, has called on the United States to follow Canada's lead in acknowledging wrongdoing in sending Arar to Syria to be tortured; Senate judiciary committee head Patrick Leahy has also weighed in on the matter.

At a meeting of the judiciary committee January 18, Leahy grilled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales on the Arar affair, charging that "we ... knew damn well, if he went to Syria he would be tortured." Gonzales promised to share the Arar dossier with Leahy in the near future, to justify the decision to keep his name on the watch list. Unsatisfied, Leahy went on to attack the entire practice of extraordinary rendition at the same session.

In the meantime, Arar's US lawyer, Maria LaHood, continues to push his civil suit against the United States, appealing the most recent American court ruling that held since Arar was a non-citizen, he was not entitled to the redress he was seeking."

from

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070131-105402-9085r

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

petr - "...it would open up the whole can of worms of guantanamo and extraordinary renditions to secret camps etc.."

Thats one of the main reasons why the Arars continue to pursue this and why I'm proud that Canadian citizens are doing this.

Its not easy to go through the courts, especially if there is little chance for justice. We should all applaud their courage. I hope that their persistence will awaken the public to the necessity of protecting our rights and freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:18 AM

"..Abdullah Almalki is one of at least eight Muslim-Canadians who have been imprisoned in a foreign country after being questioned by Canadian security agents. Some of those men, including Maher Arar, Muayyed Nureddin, Ahmad El-Maati and Mr. Almalki, say they were tortured overseas.

They suspect Canadian intelligence and those who gather it played an important, and still unexplained, role in what happened to them.

A federal commission of inquiry is examining the case of Ottawa computer engineer Maher Arar, but the federal government has so far resisted calls to broaden the scope of that inquiry to include the other cases..."

http://www.amp.ghazali.net/html/who_is_al_malky.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

That doesn't absolve the USA of its complicity or wrong-doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

But admit it, it is difficult for the authorities to defend their actions, given the assumption that anyone who attempts to defend themselves must be guilty...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?

The Canadian criticisim of the US is a smoke screen for what happened eightfold in Canada. If you figure in the population ratio, it had happend eighty fold in Canada.

It was triggered by screw up on the part of Canada.

Mean spirited Hypocrisy is a good way to describe this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:21 PM

"What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?"

Nothing. The same nothing that also doesn't absolve the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:27 PM

BTW, Dick, you are starting to sound like an ill-informed individual, no offense. I have never said Canada doesn't share the shit on this. Canada does. However, the USA is also guilty as hell. So cut the crap and give it a rest. You appear to be a "my country right or wrong" kinda guy. That sort of thinking is no longer fashionable, if indeed it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

One last thing: haven't you MFs been 'out-sourcing' torture for a long time now?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

100 !!