BS: Gun control

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 AM

Part of the problem is that we are terrified of young people having access to pornography, because it might motivate them to have sex - like they needed motivation! - but we saturate them with proviolence propaganda of the most blatant sort, without thinking anything of it. Look at a video game catalog some time.

I oppose censorship in either case - but some parental awareness of what the kids are being exposed to wouldn't hurt.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:36 AM

well Im all in favour of gun control, but one just has to look at a country like Switzerland, where everyone has to go through military service and by law has to keep a loaded automatic weapon at home (albeit under lock and key) and compare Switzerlands murder rate (almost zero)
with the US. It is much more a product of the culture, how we are raised what we are exposed to. In the typical American movie, problems are invariably solved with violence. That tells us something.
The US murder rate is something like 25times that of the UK.

BUt if one looks at other cultures, such as the Yanomami in south america who are very warlike, and encourage their kids (as soon as they walk) to go around and hit other kids with sticks. Their murder rate is 5000 times that of the US. Contrast that with the Kalahari bushmen who are the opposite, dont even spank their kids - its all cultural Im afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:48 AM

I always think that the best movie would start just when the camera is zooming back at the end of a typical violent movie.

You know the scene - the hero is struggling off to hospital being helped by the tearful blond heroine and all around there are crashed cars and broken bodies, all lit by the flames from a burning building......

Apart from the interesting explanation from the hero, for the reasons for all of the carnage - it is at that point when the reality of what guns do to people's lives and the efforts of those who are trying to minimise this - becomes clear.

But as with most of John Wayne's movies - the townsfolk's problems are all solved by the use of the old 'peacemaker' - in the right hands....

John Wayne was an actor.......

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:51 AM

and a shite actor at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:00 PM

Ah kendall, the boy's legal guardian WAS a cop. I'm saying that the grandfather cop may have been part of the problem, not the solution.

Cops aren't saints. They have the same problems everyone else has, they just have a lot more power and can do a lot more damage to society at large than the rest of us because of their authority.

Our illustrious Bush selected Republican governor--who supported forcing the NRA backed conceal and carry laws in this state (that a majority of Minnesotans didn't support) through the MN legislature not so very long ago--is already doing the Republican grandstanding and political "pro gun lobby" exploitation of the situation we've seen in other school shootings. Politicians are scum.

And the pro-guns folks are already on their usual talking points: the guns aren't the problem, but (fill in the blank) the internet, teen goth culture, video games, bad parenting, propensity towards violence of American Indians, etc. is what caused this kid to go nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM

Brucie,

I congratulate you for taking the time to discuss this tragedy with your students.

There have been drive-by shootings and a number of other tragedies that have occurred near the elementary school where my daughter teaches,including a boy from the school who died of a heart attack while playing football with other children who also attend the school. My daughter discusses these tragedies with her class. However, through conversations with other teachers and other children enrolled at the school, she has learned that few other teachers take time from their schedules to discuss these tragedies.

I guess teaching to the test was more important [sarcasm] or the teachers didn't know what to say.

This makes a bad situation worse since children & youth need opportunities to talk about these kinds of occurences.

Similarly, in the beginning of the school year at the school where my daughter teaches, two men associated with the school committed suicide. One was a new science teacher who had been at the school for 3 days. The other was a little league football coach who had been working with the students for years. The school system brought in a counselor for the science teacher who nobody knew and not one for the football coach..It would have been too much like right to have counselors available for the students for both of these tragedies.

And again, few teachers discussed either tragedy in class or in after-school groups.

Teachers and school administrators need to do a better job of meeting the needs on children in these non-academic situations.

Again, Brucie, thanks for giving your students an opportunity to learn and share information and feelings about this tragedy.

We need more teachers like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:22 PM

I have long said, over and over, that the problem of violence, not just in the US but in the world, is cultural. In the UK it might take the form of pissing down a tube into a stranger's pocket at a football game, or visiting another country for football and smashing cars, or drowning someone in a public toilet. In the Middle East and Northern Ireland, in Russia, and in other countries it's killing "those others" (for whatever reason).

Decry violence as you will, it's written "finis" to more than non-violence ever has.

Do not assume that by stating that fact I approve of it. Life isn't what we wish it was.

But I do think that where there is hope there is less violence than where hope has disappeared.

Neither violence nor firearms are solutions anymore than a computer is a solution. Cure the disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

"... I am willing to bet you that in excess of 90% of those who own weapons have never committed a crime with them, nor will they."

I agree totally....let's see, that's hmmmm....3-4 million who would or have? Why don't I feel better?

Sadly, I also agree that if we tried to ban private gun ownership, we would be centuries in accomplishing it.
   We ARE condemned to live in a society where people who hate, are angry, are mentally unstable, who want money, etc., will continue doing things like this for the foreseeable future. More harm than good will come from easily available firearms, and STILL those who are emotionally committed to their ownership will defend them. I **KNOW** that most of those defenders are honest, reasonable, non-violent people who are careful, law-abiding gun owners. Now, why do I still not feel safe?

Note that the group which Weise posted to last year is busy using the tragedy to further defend its policy of division and hate

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:38 PM

Guest 3/22/05 8:57, Just curious if your high school has metal detectors at the doors? I know our local school up here does. The kids can't walk into the school with a pair of pliers without it going off.


Kim C.-I'm the same. I have had a loaded gun for years that has never been shot. I don't have it for hunting, I have it for protection. If I ever had to use it, I 'think' I would aim for the sky (ceiling), before using it on a person.


The point is not all gun owners are going to use a gun to kill. I don't agree with gun control. The right to keep and bear arms, you know. Second amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

"made a number of bombs and grenades out of some fairly ordinary product, as I recall. Perhaps we should get rid of these, as well. And those friggin' airplanes that they flew into those buildings, they need to go. McVeigh used fertilize"

Yer not that thick, Mick, I know! LOL    The difference is all your examples are things that were made to be harmless, that some jerkass MADE into weapons... and such a jerkass can make ANYTHING into a weapon... GUNS, however were invented for ONE purpose... The killing and injuring of other human beings at a distance...   That they get used now by some for hunting and at targets is just euphemistic of their intended purpose...

"they have been a part of this country's culture since its inception"
So was slavery... and the attitude that women were 2nd class citizens... and that GOD said Black and White were forbidden to marry...   Wanna go back to believing the world is flat too Mick? (Hell dude... a lot of people already do!)

"Money and time would be much better spent trying to find out what would drive a young man to kill his grandparents and classmates and then attacking the problem."
In the mean time... get rid of the stupid guns... If you had a kid that was too stupid to figure out that it'd burn itself playing with matches, and even after it HAD done so, it continued, you'd take the matches away right?

"Solve the issue of hopelessness and helplessness"
Nice ideal mate... and I'm all for it... But until we do, you just gonna let 'em keep runnin' around armed??? Seems like a bass-ackwards way to do things to me...

" A gun is like any other tool"
Bull... a gun is not a tool... a Pipe-wrench is a tool... a zippo is a tool... a gun... a sword... a cross bow... those are weapons... Their inception was to perpetuate and facilitate the destruction of HUMAN life... And people who feel the need to carry weapons in day-to-day life are sad in my book...

But no... you folks'd rather blame society... it's the movie makers, and the people who code the video games... and the rap music... and the 'lousy' parents... (Oh no... we've got NONE of those HERE...) It's the bullies in school... it's the drugs... It's all the sex on TV... It's the hole in the ozone layer... It's the reverse racism... and the gay marriage... Not to mention the fast food!

*singing, in my best Bob Geldof*
"Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!"

Don't get me wrong... NO society, no one country has a monopoly on nutters...   We all have 'em, and they're always gonna cause problems... but with guns in the equation, they problems they can and do cause are MUCH easier (Don't anyone try to tell me it's hard for ANYONE to get a gun, especially in North America) to pull off... and they're capable of a much higher body count (unless they're really NUTS and do stuff like plant bombs and such... )

So ya... by all means... do everything you can to FIX 'society'... but I for one don't see how it can be done without getting rid of the stupid-ass guns...

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

"if we tried to ban private gun ownership, we would be centuries in accomplishing it."

A lot less time than it'd take to change 'society' though...

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

You'll get no argument from me about gun 'control'. Our controls are too lax.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

Bill, we are great friends and always will be. But your contention that we are all, somehow, emotionally tied to weapons is a ridiculous contention. I am no more emotionally attached to weapons than I am football gear, my fishing gear, a telephone, my computer, or any other inanimate object. My problem is that most anti gun people base their arguments on unattainable goals, and emotion. They act as if one could wave a magic wand, make the guns go away and the violence would stop. That is as illogical as any argument I have ever heard. If I could wave a magic wand and make all the people that would kill disappear makes just as much sense. I enjoy shooting sports. I enjoy hunting. And I take pride in the training I have in the use of my firearms in a safe manner. That includes knowing that if I am forced to defend myself or my family, I will be able to in a very efficient manner. But I doubt that I, like most policemen, will ever bring out a weapon for that purpose. While I am quallified to carry a concealed weapon, I can't remember the last time I did.

Other than the unrealistic argument of "getting rid of all guns", no one yet has advanced a decently thought out argument yet. The only thing I hear is hypothetical. And they will never happen.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:05 PM

Why can't you adopt the same gun laws as the UK? It isn't a magic wand, but it is a step in the right direction. And alot more positive than doing nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM

And would you be so kind as to tell us the positive effect? How about the rising violent crime rate?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM

Sorry for being thick but I don't understand what you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

Guest. I would suggest you re visit the UK. Violent crime and gun crime is on the rise. Since in the UK it is illegal to fight back now the yardies rule the streets.

Yours, (in disgust) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,guest 1.10pm
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

I live in the UK.

Gun crime rose last year by 2%. The previous year it rose by approx 34%. The new laws and statutory sentences are trying to lower the increase even more and are working. In London gun crime dropped last year and in the wake of that success, other police forces are adopting the same initiatives. Notably the Matrix project in Liverpool.

Sitting back and doing nothing will not have an effect on gun crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

Let's say we got rid of guns.

People would still find a way to murder, maim, and intimidate each other. . . knives, bows & arrows, bombs, baseball bats, scissors, frying pans, knitting needles, hatpins, nail clippers, box cutters, slingshots. . . you name it. And it would only be a matter of time before someone invented a substitute firearm.

Like Kendall said, we have to deal with the way things are, and not the way we wish they were.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

As Big Mick advises, it's pretty clear there is no way of waving a magic wand, and getting rid of guns in the States. Or getting rid of the love affair many Americans clearly have with them. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that's an impossibilist agenda, and as such it just gets in the way of getting people organised to bring about the things that could be done,and that could help.

As the drug situation demonstrates, in a society where addiction is involved, and enough people want to do something badly enough, just making it illegal and trying to impose prohibition is liable to just make things worse.

The better way is surely to cvoncentrate on trying to adjust things so that the damage is reduced. And at the same time work on changing attitudes, so that the behaviour involved is recognised as undesirable by more and more people, and the rationalisations start to fade away. And you hope that over time the culture will change.

My impression is that when it comes to tobacco, that kind of approach may be working. I'd say that would be the way to approach gun possession and gun control.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM

"no one yet has advanced a decently thought out argument yet. The only thing I hear is hypothetical. And they will never happen."

And how is "Society needs to change" ANY better, or ANY more attainable????

It's not... It's more a pipe-dream from what I can tell...

And it's too vague to even begin attempting...

HOW does socitety need to change? HOW does one impliment those changes???

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:36 PM

Sort of like saying "Clinton Hammond needs to change", right? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM

Yer better off trying to change society LH!

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:43 PM

Yeah. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:49 PM

RR, no my school doesn't have metal detectors, and never has. As far as I know, none of the Mpls or St Paul public schools uses them.

Some schools do use security cameras. My school doesn't. We do have one security guard for 2,200+ students and staff, and one St Paul School Liason police officer.

But I support not having metal detectors. They didn't do anything for the staff and students of Red Lake. There really is no way to defend against the sort of attack at Red Lake or Columbine, without putting armed guards at every entrance to a school building, and that simply won't happen.

Even though I am in an area of the school that is often the target of shooters (the library), I feel safe working here. My daughter didn't feel very safe attending school here though. But that was because of bullying and in-school threats of violence from other students (both male and female) to beat kids up. We have had incidences of weapons being found in school.

I haven't had many discussions with students today about the shooting. Most kids clam up rather than talk about it. The most in depth conversation I had today was with a Hmong student, and we ended up talking about how racism was effecting the coverage of this incident, just like it did with the media coverage of the killings of the hunters in Wis. alleged to have been committed by a Hmong man from St Paul. While his family lives in a different school area and none of that family's kids attend our school, the family is well known in our school community. Our student population is roughly 1/3 Hmong.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,munchie
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM

I have guns in my home. Why? Because if I do not, the I am subject to being overpowered by those who do.

I do not have any children and never will. I am 47 years old. I do not understand why people have so many children, and then are apparently unable to raise them into productive citizens. Why shouldn't the parents of these murderers be held somewhat accountable? For those who say, "but it's not THEIR fault", I say, neither is it the gun's fault.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Parents are not responsible if their kids turn out to be murderers, and guns are not responsible for the sick people who use them for evil.

Its no wonder with all the violent stuff on tv that people are prone to think of violent solutions to their problems. Those touchy-feely actors who hate Bush so much, should put their acceptance of acting parts where their mouths are and stop taking part in violent tv shows, (like CRS), and movies.

The gun control solution would be like letting the tail wag the dog. The way to fix the problem of people who want to kill other people is not to take away every means they have to do it, but to fix whatever it was that made them that way in the first place, be it social, economic, racial or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 04:40 PM

At the end of the day there's a divide between those of us who see wanting to have a gun as a kind of sickness and those who see it as a kind of health. I'm just glad to live in apart of the world where most people see it the same way as I do.

However that's a remote kind of thing really, an abstract argument about moral philosophy and so forth.

It isn't too relevant to the real issue. For Americans that must surely be to find ways of minimising the number of occasions where things like this are going to happen, while accepting that, for good or ill, there are going to continue to be an enormous number of guns in your country for a long time to come, maybe for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:25 PM

Clinton, I appreciate your position. Changing society is a tough row, but infinitely more doable than the other proposals. The gun control issues don't fly with the people who own them and vote for a very simple reason. Law abiding citizens who own guns for sport, recreation, and self protection aren't committing the crimes with them. About the only controls needed beyond what we have in place now, are those which would cause a thorough investigation as to how (for example) the young man came into possession of his Grandfather's weapon. I believe that when a gun accident, such as the killing of the little girl in Flint, MI, USA (whom MTed wrote so eloquently about) by the little boy, the owner of that pistol should be prosecuted for murder.

As to changing society, there is a correlation that can be made between the removal of the social safety net, and the increase in gun crime and crime in general. These programs bring hope to the least among us. Back when the world though of the US as a somewhat flawed, but overall great, country, it was because of the respect and desire shown towards the least among us. As funding for programs such as Headstart and other such programs was taken away, hopelessness begins to set in. I am not advocating that folks aren't responsible, but I am telling you that when kids are born into and raised in neighborhoods where there is no way out, they look for other solutions. When a kind feels powerless at school from being physically injured, no one seems to give a shit, they take matters into their own hands. It is just as great a tragedy that this young man killed himself as it is that he killed others. This represents a total failure on society's part.

I would take issue with your contention that these changes that could be made are just as hypothetical as those proposed by the "just make guns go away" crowd. Good Social legislation has been shown time and again to bring about fairly rapid changes in the crime rate and subsequent violence in the streets. No one wants to grow up to be a gangster unless those are the most successful people around. Show them another way, assist them a bit by removing the societal roadblocks, and they will walk straight away from these acts.

It has little to do with the guns, they have always been available. It has everything to do with why they picked it up.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:46 PM

just to be clear Mick...I never advocated "getting rid of all guns".Nor did I claim that *all" gun owners are emotional about them....what I did say was that "...those who are emotionally committed to their ownership will defend them.." , even in the face of evidence that they are a problem. I ought to modify my statement to note that many are "emotionally committed" to the principle of "keeping and bearing arms..", even if they are not rabid owners..(the phrase "gun fondlers" comes to my mind....you have met them.

*IF* I could wave a magic wand and have it like I want, I would allow true hunting rifles (that is, NO auto or semi auto assult weapons in private hands....that means NONE), and each & every gun would be registered, and EVERY person who intended to use a gun, even for hunting, would be registered and double checked during a serious waiting period. Hand guns would be **extremely** regulated, and allowed mostly to law enforcement. Some exceptions would be made for target shooting...(serious stuff like Olympic pistols...which are too expensive for most black market deals anyway).

I would further enforce **very** strict ammunition laws, so that no criminals could acquire better ammo than the police have! No armor piercing rounds...etc. This would include **very** strict laws on importing various guns & ammo, with penalties way beyond what they are now.

There are other modifications I would make and many details are hard to anticipate......Now, having said that, I acknowlege that I haven't got a chance in hell of getting my way in this...there are simply too many guns hidden away already. I do think that a truly STRONG embargo and limitation on ammunition could go a long way toward gradually easing the situation....and perhaps replacing guns for 'personal protection' with some of the non-lethal gadgets now being studied & used could help people feel safer while reducing the number of incidents like this latest.

Yeah, we always need training, counseling, and social change to reduce the sort of stresses that make guns way to easy a solution....but I see the problems that lead to social stress increasing. What are we gonna do, give everyone a gun and just let the best shots survive?

As has been noted before, guns are NOT a necessity...they USED to be an aid to wilderness survival (and conquering the natives of that wilderness!) but 98% of us now do NOT live in situations where guns are a serious requirement. Guns have simply become a part of our culture and 'image', and whether you like admitting it or not, Mick, WAY too many folks do get emotionally attached to the idea of having them! I'm glad you do not, but don't project your reasonable attitude on the guy down the street.

I wish it were all easier.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM

( I see you posted while I was composing)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:57 PM

Bill, I understand your position, and I find it to be more emotion laden than those you talk about. The fact that they used to be a necessity has nothing to do with the issue. Gun violence is not on the rise. In fact, where the gun laws are the loosest, the violent crime rate is down significantly. I just don't buy into the idea that somehow the changes you recommend would affect the amount of gun CRIME. I reiterate. It isn't the legal gun owners who are perpetrating most of these crimes. Bill, as I have said before. If I thought for one minute, or if anyone could produce any decent, unskewed facts, that your controls would make our country a safer place, I would willingly give up my guns. The simple fact is that it has never been shown to be the case.

And most importantly to me is the fact that by making this some kind of litmus test for political support, has allowed the socially conservative crowd to gain control, which just exacerbates the problems which cause the violence in the first place. Social liberals, and I count myself as one of these, just stuck our nose into this friggin trap and have paid the price since. Pretty silly given the fact that decent middle class folks, who are the ones that vote and many own guns, now will go the other way over this and other issues that really don't amount to a hill of beans. Know why? Because they know a bill of goods when it is presented to them.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM

Canadian Statistics > Justice and crime > Crimes
Symbols
Homicides by method
           1999         2000         2001         2002         2003
        
All methods         538         546         553         582         548
Shooting         165         184         171         152         161
Stabbing         143         149         171         182         142
Beating         125         128         122         125         120
Strangulation         55         38         47         66         63
Fire             11         4         8         8         12
(burns/suffocation)         
Other methods         31         36         26         26         27
Not known         8         7         8         23         23

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 09:15 PM

Sorry

I tried to do a link and couldn't get it to work. The stats are from Canada. Sorry the rows don't line up. If guns are the problem, then knives (or other tools of that nature) come in a close second. Gonna be a real problem in the kitchen, IMO. Fists and hands come in third. So, maybe guns are not the problem, because it seems people have learned to adapt to the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:32 PM

Fear is the problem. Now, where are people more fearful on average...in Canada or in the USA? I ask you. I've lived in both countries, and I can tell you that on average there is far more fear in the USA (and not just since 911).

It is generally an immediate reaction of fear or anger that causes people to pull a trigger...and anger, as a matter of fact, is a symptom OF fear at some level of the personality. Fear of loss, fear of humiliation, fear of attack, fear of arrest, fear of being dominated, fear of being caught in some act, etc...

The more fearful a populace is, the more people will react in a violent fashion to stressful situations.

What emotion is the daily News reporting most designed to elicit? Fear. What emotion do politicians most often attempt to stir in people in order to get support for their policies? Fear. With what tool do aggressive people attempt to discipline their children? Fear. What is the intention of a capital punishment system? To instill fear.

If your standard means of motivating people and controlling them is Fear, then you can expect plenty of trouble to result from it when those people lose control at some point (just like a frightened animal) and lash out at somebody else (if they're the aggressive type)...or at themselves (if they're the passive type).

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:57 PM

Mick....I tend to make arguments that are on several levels, and it is common for people to simplify what I have said. I really do not think you DO understand my position. I assure you, my opinion is not based on emotion.... well...no more than yours is. We all become a bit 'involved' in our own opinions, once we are sure we are on the right track. You no doubt have 'strong feelings' about the value of the labor movement, though you are sure you can also defend its principles logically.

I tried to make the point that *****IF***** (see the emphasis?) we could control certain situations, especially the number of hidden, unregistered guns, and limit the ammunition, and process those who WISH to own guns more carefully, we could seriously reduce the problem without a major hassle to the few legitimate uses of firearms.

You state that "I reiterate. It isn't the legal gun owners who are perpetrating most of these crimes." ...well, yeah....sure....but it is careless control BY them and lax laws about who is entitled to become legal owners that allow many thousands of guns...mostly handguns...to slip into the hands of both criminals and unstable personalities every years.

Let me phrase it this way.... with controls as lax and variable from state to state as they are, you CANNOT prevent the wrong kinds of guns falling into the wrong hands. In the District of Columbia, they have some of the toughest laws ib the country, yet any kid on the street can tell you where to go buy one, and these kids are arguing that guns are 'the easiest way to settle stuff'..."why go messin' 'round with fightin', when you can just get you a 'piece' and waste the mothah?"..(yes I have heard those interviews!) Guns are WAY more easily available in VA than in DC, and there are more gun runners than there used to be bootleggers.

Logic...not emotion, tells me that prosecuting them after the fact is worse than useless when they are viewed as heros for having and using guns! (That is where the 'emotion' is high!) They need to be denied access, and as it now stands, you cannot write a law that will seriously restrict access as long as so many guns are available in so many places.

Now, once again...I am aware that we are way past where even the strictest laws, enforcement and prosecution can easily control things. You could make the prices higher, but there would just be more robberies to GET the $$$, just as there are to get more drugs. (yep...that's another link....restricting drugs would make a bit less incentive to have a gun to GET the drugs).

Bottom line....even feeling as I do, I do not know how we could easily break the chain of attitude + access + poor education = BIG problems, but unless we reduce the societal pressures OR the gun supply, it will only get worse, and it is my carefully thought out opinion that making inroads into the supply and accessability of firearms is the easier problem to chip away at right now.........You want my opinons about how to reduce the problems of society? How much time do you have? Bring plenty of the foul, black stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:49 PM

I recall, years ago, reading an interview with a 'fast & fancy' handgun/rifle shooter who gave shows (advertising Colt firearms I believe). It went something like this:

The reporter asked if he was as fast and accurate as the Old West gunfighters.

He said faster and more accurate, near as he could tell.

"Then you would have been the top gun in those days?"

He said "No, because I don't have the will to kill."

It's the Will to Kill that you need to eradicate. Anything can be a weapon. It's not murders by gun that are the problem, it's any murders. And people - like that reporter - who think killers are glamourous are a contributing problem too.

Guns can be made in home shops. Gunpowder can be made as easily as meth & LSD. Hell, I heard a forensic lecturer say that he thought a great many successful murders are committed by automobile because we accept auto accidents, and they are not investigated like other violent deaths.

It's people who see killing as a solution that are the problem.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

Excellent point, Clint. I do not seem to possess the will to kill...nor even the will to, for instance, punch or beat up another person....no matter how angry I get. It's not in my nature. (this doesn't mean that I won't fight if I am FORCED to by an attacker...but I won't initiate the violence).

It's the people who DO initiate violence easily who worry me, and I knew plenty like that when I was in school, believe me. They thought nothing of physically attacking anyone else to get what they wanted, even if it was just a sense of momentary sadistic satisfaction. That is the crucial difference.

I've lived in spiritual communities where it was completely unthinkable that anyone there would use violence against someone else...right next to neighborhoods where it was taken for granted by a lot of the younger men that violence is a normal way of dealing with other people.

To me, it's totally abnormal. Thus I may have had angry fantasies when in school, but there was no danger I would act them out in real life.

I had an uncle for whom violence was totally abnormal, and he collected and fired guns all his life. He hunted ducks and other waterfowl at times, but he certainly never considered firing a gun at another human being. Given such an example, I grew up not fearing guns in themselves at all, but fearing out-of-control people...and I met those people mostly at school...occasionally on the street. Such people, of course, are more dangerous when they have a gun in their hands than when they don't.

But there is no simple, easy solution to the problem by just passing a law.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM

aww, c'mon Clint...do you really think that the kids are gonna be down in the basement making gunpowder IF they could make guns? Not in any quantity, and not easily usable. It is mass-produced, easily obtainable, efficient guns that make them so popular with the young hoodlums and wannabe criminals.

Of course it would be better to reduce the number of "... people who see killing as a solution..."! Just how do you propose to do this? And while we're waiting for this breakthrough in social conditioning, how about making it a bit harder for the potential murderers to do major damage?

That boy in Minnesota was evidently a disaster waiting to happen, and might have hurt a few people anyway with a baseball bat or a knife, but 9 people dead in 3 minutes?

The fact is, it is more common for people to be hurt or killed with "guns kept for self-defense" than for people to successfully USE a gun for self-defense!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: NH Dave
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:10 AM

A couple of points. Most police folks have their issue gun and another for when they're off duty. The kid may have borrowed that one.

My state and several local ones have fairly liberal gun laws. We have the odd hunting accident - some folks WILL shoot at any motion in the brush, before looking to see exactly what caused the motion, but by and large we don't have the problems as two other states, one near byt the other some 200 miles away.

Both of these states have tough gun laws and very severe penalties for woning an unregistered pistol. I won't go into some sections of Boston, that city has strict gun laws, and I won't even think about entering New York City, the other area with tough gun laws. n.b. New York and Boston are featured in at least five of the hit TV crime shows this year.

As the bumper sticker says, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. As many I know say, "When you need a gun, you need it right now! No waiting a couple of weeks to apply for a permit, and then another week to buy the gun."

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:06 AM

Ever hear of the historic "zip guns, " Bill?

And it wouldn't be necessarily kids making them in the basement anyway; it'd be the kind of entrepeneurs who make (or import) drugs to sell to kids and upright members of the community.

And anyway again, you don't need guns to do this kind of hysterical mass murder. Look up the derivation of "amok."

clint

I don't know how to get rid of the will to kill -- but you could ask the Swiss. All I meant was, if you have the will to kill you can murder without guns; without the will to kill guns will not force you to murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:21 AM

PS
"Of course it would be better to reduce the number of "... people who see killing as a solution..."! Just how do you propose to do this? And while we're waiting for this breakthrough in social conditioning, how about making it a bit harder for the potential murderers to do major damage?"

Just how do you propose to prohibit guns? Like we won the War on Drugs? There's way more marijuana use now than there was in the thirties when it first became illegal. And remember Sam Colt's first revolvers were made with early 19th century technology. Paladin Press has several books on home shop gunsmithing. Look them up.

"The fact is, it is more common for people to be hurt or killed with "guns kept for self-defense" than for people to successfully USE a gun for self-defense!"

I don't think there are any reliable statistics on this. And there are a number of people like me (and my mother!) who have used a pistol to warn the bad guy off and who wouldn't show up on gunfight statistics. Although I think that's the best way to defend yourself with a gun.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:33 AM

Guns make killing easy.
By getting rid of them therefore makes killing harder.
DO IT NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:50 AM

Brucie's statistics (22 Mar 09.11 pm) regarding methods of murder are interesting, but not at all surprising.

What I would now like to see is a similar set of statistics for cases where more than one person was murdered?

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:00 AM

There are people who are trouble. I visited a native village with a reputation for being unfriendly to white folk, but it was mainly one family with some dangerous men. I did my job and got out of there. Years later and many miles away I met a white man who had been the school principal in that village. I asked him what he'd done about the Smith boys. His immediate respone, "I had to kick the shit out of the biggest one of them."

These guys were bad to everyone, but a white person stood out in that place and was a victim to hand for this family.

A few years later I read in the paper that the local (native) cop had shot one of them to death during a hostage situation where the bad dude threatened to shoot his own wife. My immediate reaction was "Good, one less problem in the world."

The point is: There are folks who are trouble. In our society you can't take 'em out till they do something.

And while my story takes place on the reservation, it is not a 'native' thing. It was the small community size and remoteness that brought a common enough situation into sharp relief.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,guess who
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:48 AM

Yet again, gun violence of the most deeply tragic nature has brought out the mudcat gun nuts to vehemently protest their right to arm themselves to the teeth to "protect their families" (indulge their paranoia, intimidate others, pretend they just want them for hunting, imagine themselves being heroes and killing bad guys).

Eventually, this country will come to it's senses and further limit the ownership of guns and therefore their use in tragic situations such as these. All the delusional macho mudcat boys will then have to protect themselves using their wits. Oh wait, that's why they need guns in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:05 AM

Consider this: in rural societies weapons are common -- for hunting and, to a lesser extent, for defense (against brigands and wild animals). When a rural society changes to an urban one, weapons are less necessary for the individual and, in some cases, become dangerous to the society as a whole (e.g., shooting a projectile in a crowded city is far more likely to hurt someone than doing so in the countryside).

US society, like others around the world, is becoming more and more urbanized and the individual has less and less need for a weapon. The protection of the individual is delegated to the police, and self-defense becomes a second line of defense against the bad guys -- whether human or animal (we call the Animal Control Officer). But we also put too many people in too small an area -- and THAT has long been demonstrated to lead to violence, among other undesirable things.

But for many it's a case of starve quickly in the country or slowly in town.

As a target shooter (with bow and firearm) I marvel that these sports can be done safely in the crowded UK. Where I live we use the side of a mountain as a backstop for bullets -- having been to the UK I wonder how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:38 AM

Rapaire

In the UK for bow target shooting we are required to only use ranges set up in open spaces designated for sports activities, the ranges must be marked out with warning signs and flags, we have range officers who are responsible for ensuring that no one is shooting while any person is on the range, and wandering people, animals and birds always take right of way. Bows are to be kept in cases when not in use and it is an offense to carry a strung bow in a public place.

pistol target shooting is now very rare in the UK as private ownership of pistols is largely banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:46 AM

Rapaire - You've never been to Northumberland, then? Or the Yorkshire Dales, or the Derbyshire Peaks, or the Scottish Highlands? I know what you mean - we can give the impression we're living cheek by jowl. But if I'd only visited New York or Chicago, I'd think the same about the U.S. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:19 AM

"Brucie's statistics (22 Mar 09.11 pm) regarding methods of murder are interesting, but not at all surprising.

What I would now like to see is a similar set of statistics for cases where more than one person was murdered?"

The stats would be skewed by 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun control
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:22 AM

I'm sure the future Liberal gov't of the US is following this issue very closely....as a matter of fact, I'm pretty much assured of the fact that a future Liberal gov't of the US gov't would very much like to have a country full of unarmed peasants.




Hubby