When is a riff not a riff?

Subject: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 11:28 AM

Just reflecting on one of my favourite songs (my phone's default ringtone) - Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore. I always described the opening as a riff because it is repeated 2 or 3 times during the song but I am not so sure now. Maybe too long for a riff. Maybe it's a lick. I am no real musician so can someone tell me how to spot the difference?

And, yes, I know Google will but I like real people more :-D

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 02:36 PM

Ah, Dave, but is it a hook?

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 05:04 PM

What matters is how the music is played, not names

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,AI OVERVIEW The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 05:13 PM

riff is a main, repeated musical phrase that often defines a song (like "Smoke on the Water"), forming its backbone, while a lick is a shorter, more decorative melodic phrase or "nugget" of notes, often improvised within solos or as fills, that can be moved between songs. Think of a riff as the essential furniture of a room, and licks as decorative pillows you can swap out; licks build solos, while riffs are the song's recognizable theme

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 05:30 PM

Who cares about an AI overview? Stick with the human brain, please.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Dec 25 - 06:18 PM

I would say that I consider a riff to be a distinctive feature of a particular song or tune that will alway call that song or tune to mind.

I would say that a lick is a feature that may be found lurking in multiple tunes or songs and is re-used as needed where appropriate.

Robin (no AI consulted).

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 04:15 AM

Thanks Robin. With thar description I would definitely consider the opening of Parisienne Walkways to be a riff then.

Steve, stop confusing me even more :-D

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 06:16 AM

In jazz parlance I think that opening would be considered a "head", it sounds kind of long to be a riff.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Johnny J
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 06:32 AM

When it is a "raff"?
;-)

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Sol
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 07:47 AM

If a song was a tree ....
The riff = the bough
The lyrics = the branches
The licks = the leaves

Feel free to disagree ;-)

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 09:36 AM

I like that, Sol :-) Where does the tune fit in? Trunk or roots?

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: clueless don
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 11:21 AM

How about a "phrase"?

I remember reading that John Lennon described the opening guitar part of "I Feel Fine" as a "figure".

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Sol
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 06:36 PM

"DTG -I like that, Sol :-) Where does the tune fit in? Trunk or roots?"
Good point! I guess it's integral with the lyrics.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Sol
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 06:37 PM

ps ... and or the bough. Take your pick.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 25 - 07:01 PM

Don - Am I misremembering or the opening to "I feel fine" a long note which distorts part way through?

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 04:19 AM

What direct risks does AI pose to the climate and environment?

Now, can we just get on with the subject?

And as per my opening post I would prefer answers from real people rather than a cut and paste from either AI or a seaech engine. Thank you.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 05:55 AM

My favourite kind of riff is a well-presented midriff, preferably on display in summer...   But seriously, arguably the most iconic riff in rock music is the one that insistently drives "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" by the Stones. By the way, wiki also describes it as a hook. The long feedback note at the start of "I Feel Fine" was initially an accident caused by Lennon getting his guitar too upclose and personal with an amplifier, whereafter George Martin suggested incorporating it in the song. The guitar passage following it is a great example of a riff.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 06:51 AM

I can play the "Smoke on the Water" riff on my anglo concertina :-)

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 07:08 AM

This thread made me think about this ditty by Martin Mull-
Licks off of Records

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 09:41 AM

Doesn't open for me gillymor. Just says "video not available"

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 10:01 AM

It works for me, Dave, maybe it's a regional thing. I'll try again on another device-

Licks off of Records- Martin Mull

and with Glen Campbell

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Dec 25 - 07:07 PM

A delightful, fun, informative Thread.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


Thank You.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 19 Dec 25 - 07:12 AM

To my mind, a riff is a short repeated motif, often used in the introduction, but usually of no direct relation to the melody line. The melody, or chord sequence, is typically used to form a break or instrumental verse, whereas the riff is just a hook or filler, acting as an ear worm and therefore not usually used in folk music.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Dec 25 - 10:23 AM

I don't think there's an exact definition of the term, and views will vary.

I'd agree with Jerry on the "short repeated motif, often used in the introduction" view but not the "of no direct relation to the melody line" aspect. Many riffs are the initial melody line.

Personally, I think the guitar line in "Parisienne Walkways" is too long to be described as a riff. I'd probably call it a 'theme'.

Dave, you may find this BBC Four documentary from 2014 of interest. It contains numerous thoughts on the meaning:

The Joy of the Guitar Riff

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 25 - 03:08 PM

If you listen to the Carnival Band's version of The Holly and the Ivy on the album Tapestry of Carols, there's a tiny bit of a tune between all the verses played on recorder (I think!) that I would call a riff. The track is acoustic, it's played on replica medieval instruments, it's sung absolutely beautifully by Maddy Prior and I would call it folk music!

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 19 Dec 25 - 06:25 PM

I see what you mean, Steve, but we’ve tended to play a few bars of the melody in between verses of carols too this week, and would not really regard those as riffs. The guitar intro to the likes of Layla, Money for Nothing, etc are famous riffs, but are not fragments of the melody so much as a few enticing notes in the same key and rhythm. With some like The Last Time and the Byrds’ Mr Tambourine Man, the riff is based on the same chords as the melody, so arguably is a harmony line.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 25 - 08:18 PM

I get that, but the little bit of music between the verses in the example I gave are not a few bars of the melody - that snippet of music is completely different to the main tune of the carol. When we sing that carol at home that bit is simply not there. In the Carnival Band version, that fragment is a deliberate part of their arrangement. When I think of it, and especially when I think of emulating their version with my band (which may never happen!), I regard that little segment as a riff, as it's repeated insistently through the song (occasionally varied, admittedly). Anyway, riff or not, it's a lovely version and it's one of my Christmas favourites!

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 25 - 12:48 AM

The last four bars or two bars of a tune is not a Riff.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 25 - 02:06 AM

"This thread made me think about this ditty by Martin Mull-
Licks off of Records" video not available

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 20 Dec 25 - 04:42 AM

Sorry Steve, I misread your earlier post; I thought you said “a tiny fragment of the tune…” not of a tune. Even so, I’d call that a filler, in the same way blues and also bluegrass players will fill the gaps between the vocal lines with a twiddly bit. I guess though if it’s identical every time, then it tends to become the equivalent of a riff.

Subject: RE: When is a riff not a riff?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 25 - 05:08 AM

Bluegrass banjo is based on using finger rolls, They often do not understand the musical value of silences, Scruggs is a prime example, these finger rolls are in fact finger patterns, but still not what I would call a riff.
A good example of a riff is Bill Wymans[ aka Bill Perks] intro to Satisfaction