Cold Mountain (the movie)

Subject: Cold Mountain
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 10:42 PM

Are you guys as dubious as I about the casting for "Cold Mountain" (the movie)? If you had asked me for the least likely lead(s) I probably couldn't come up with more unlikely names/actors. I'm still anxious to see it but it sounds as though it is hardly the movie I anticipated -- missing in both mood and style......

...like going to a museum in anticipation of a Grant Wood or Thomas Hart Benton exibition, only to be greeted by a Thomas Kincaid vomitfest.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Tom D.
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 11:49 PM

I agree. The book had real substance to it--the substance of regular people. No offense, but I've seen (more than) enough of Nicole K. for a while anyway. From the bits I have seen in ads on TV, the house seems a bit more palatial than I recall. With respect to the casting of Renee Z. in that particular role, I can go either way (though she generally weirds me out).

Tom D.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 11:52 PM

John - I was a little surprised too at the casting, but both women - Nicole Kidman and Rene Zellweger - are talented actresses and should be box office draws given their last few pictures. For a big budget movie from an award-winning book the producers obviously weren't going to cast unknowns. I also thought Jude Law was about as equitable a choice as anyone.

What will really matter, I believe, is who they get for the minor characters, like the runaway preacher, Zellweger's father (Stobard sp?), etc. Also, how many of the characters they eliminate or "combine" to make a simpler movie plot line. From what I can glean from the few previews I've seen, the film seems to generally follow the book's story. Time will tell, though.

I'm curious. Who would you (or other Mudcatters) have cast for the three leads ?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: BanjoRay
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

This is from Riley Baugus, who built the banjo seen in the film and was a dialect coach, and is a superb Round Peak banjo player who learned from Tommy Jarrel. I got it from the alt.music.country.old-time newsgroup.

I did build the only banjo that you see on the screen and I am the
singing voice of the character Pangle, played by a wonderful actor
named Ethan Suplee. The other musicians involved are folks like
Allison Krauss, Dirk Powell, Tim O'Brien, Tim Eriksen, Norman and
Nancy Blake, Stuart Duncan, Mike Compton, and Jack White from The
White Stripes. I have the honour of singing a song with Mr. White on the soundtrack CD and in the film. Sting, Elvis Costello, and TBone Burnett wrote songs that are in the film and I think they fit perfectly. >
Cheers
Ray

Subject: Soundtrack
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:43 AM

Riley Baugus appeared last month at the Ryburn Folk Club, Ripponden, England. The soundtrack is released on 16 December, the film on Christmas Day US, Boxing Day UK. The soundtrack listing is:

Jack White 'Wayfaring Stranger'
Reeltime Travelers 'Like a Songbird That Has Fallen'
Tim Eriksen, Riley Baugus & Tim O'Brien 'I Wish My Baby Was Born'
Alison Krauss 'The Scarlet Tide'
Tim Eriksen & Riley Baugus 'The Cuckoo'
Jack White 'Sittin' on Top of the World'
Tim Eriksen 'Am I Born To Die?'
Alison Krauss 'You Will Be My Ain True Love'
Sacred Harp Singers at Liberty Church 'I'm Going Home'
Jack White 'Never Far Away'
Jack White 'Christmas Time Will Soon Be Over'
Stuart Duncan & Dirk Powell 'Ruby With the Eyes That Sparkle'
Cassie Franklin 'Lady Margaret'
Jack White 'Great High Mountain'
Gabriel Yared 'Anthem'
Gabriel Yared 'Ada Plays'
Gabriel Yared 'Ada and Inman'
Gabriel Yared 'Love Theme'
Sacred Harp Singers at Liberty Church 'Idumea'

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:40 AM

The soundtrack sounds good --but I sure hope it sounds old-timey, not bluegrassy. Does Hollywood know the difference? AKUS is too polished for Cold Mountain -- too polished for rural 1865.

As to the actors -- I just never imagined glamour girls for the leads. I'd have to think of who I'd imagine, though I guess I'd rather imagine regular looking no names.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:45 AM

casting is all wrong, as far as the book goes, but this is a movie, not a book, and it's bound to be different from the book. I hope the character of the woman who lives by herself, can't remeber her name right now, is included and is done well, and it better not be Meryl Streep! we'll have to wait and see, and the music looiks good on paper, but how it's used in the film will make all the difference.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:52 AM

I never could get into the book. I tried it a couple of times - but it just didn't interest me.

The movie may be OK. The ads make it look like a typical Hollywood flick - the music look promising.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 10:16 AM

Stobrod is played by Brendan Gleeson. Tim Eriksen is his singing voice. Tim also helped the producers connect to real Sacred Harp singers for those parts instead of using a few singers in a studio. The L.A. Times also had an article about Tim.

There was an earlier thread Here.
Last Friday NPR had a program on Sacred Harp singing that is probably a direct result of the music being used in Cold Mountain.

I've put the CD on my Christmas list & think I've forgotten enough of the novel to enjoy the movie on its own terms.

On that track list, "Am I Born to Die" and "Idumea" are actually the same song.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Butch
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM

I hav been asked by ABC news to comment on some of the music from a historic perspective. I see that Riley Baugus built the banjo. Does anyone know what it looked like? I would love to know. Any information would be great.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Read the book. Didn't like it. Don't like Jude Law OR Nicole Kidman. Too much like Ken & Barbie. (don't like Tom Cruise either, but think I will make the effort to see The Last Samurai.)

Do own, and love, the Songs from the Mountain CD by Tim O'Brien & others.

Who would I have cast? Matthew McConaughey as Inman, Cate Blanchett or Winona Ryder as Ada, Juliette Lewis as Ruby.

My advice to everyone is to read The Black Flower instead. A far superior book, and more worthy of a movie IMHO.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM

Black Flower? better song too!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:04 PM

Thanks Jed! :-)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:38 PM

Kim C. - I liked the book until the rather melodramatic ending. Also noticed that there were some lines which seemed to come, almost word for word, from certain bluegrass songs about relationships (and they weren't part of songs in the book, just narrative!).

I also ran across an article on old timey fiddler/banjoist Tommy Jarrel in which he tells a story about a 14-year-old girl cousin getting burned and how she requested he play the banjo for her before she died - much like Stobrod plays the fiddle for the dying girl.

I suspect the author of Cold Mountain is really into old timey and bluegrass music. That said, however, the idea that old timey music as we know it today would be authentic for a Civil War era film might be stretching it a bit.

From what I can tell, a lot of old timey music is from the 1920's & 30's, from musicians like Charlie Poole, et al, who got a good deal of their repertoire from sheet music isssued around the turn of the century (1900), not from 1860 era.

Your choices for the three leads are interesting. I like Matthew M. and had forgotten about Juliette Lewis - she would be good.
However, I think J Lo and Ben Affleck would be a better pairing ! :)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GLoux
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:59 PM

There is a lot of old time music from the Civil War period. The older the better, in my opinion, but the older the music and the techniques (e.g., bowing the fiddle) the less likely that millions of viewers would find it appealing. BanjoRay did not post all of Riley's comments, some of which address this issue...I'll track 'em down and post them here soon.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GLoux
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM

Riley posted this (and what BanjoRay posted here) to the New River Old Time (NROT) listserver:

"...I went to a press screening of the film today. I loved it. I thought the film was very, very well done and was extremely gripping. Very realistic. Some things are a bit different from the book, but I feel that the film adaptation holds true to the spirit of the story in the book. I think the project will appeal to millions of people. Lots of stuff here for music lovers and for those who pay no attention to the music at all. The music in the film is really wonderful. It is not strictly hard-core, Old-time, but it's great..."

-Greg

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dani
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:13 PM

Though not perfect, I thought the book had two great qualities: one is the vivid landscapes and scenes of North Carolina. I was crushed to hear that they filmed in Romania because it looked ALMOST like, but people and production were cheaper there. Imagine!

When I drive up or down the highways that cut throught the forests here I often think of crossing paths with the soldiers who walked home, defeated, broken, sick and hungry.

I also think the book has some of the most beautiful bits of writing I've ever come across. This quote I have kept with me since reading it there:

"From any direction she came at it, the only conclusion that left her any hope of self-content was this: what she could see around her was all that she could count on. The mountains and a desire to find if she could make a satisfactory life of common things here – together they seemed to offer the promise of a more content and expansive life, though she could in no way picture even its starkest outlines. It was easy enough to say… that the path to contentment was to abide by one's own nature and follow its path. Such she believed was clearly true. But if one had not the slightest hint toward finding what one's nature was, then even stepping out on the path became a snaggy matter."

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:27 PM

The cd (Sony) will be released Dec. 16. Songs and/or arrangements not in the film will be added, including Sting, "You will be my ain true love," and Elvis Costello, "The Scarlet Tide," both sung by Alison Krause.
Five additional tracks by Jack White (The White Stripes) will be added.
The list of 19 tracks is given by Amazon.com. A number of them seem to be post- War Between the States.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:20 PM

I have not seen it---but the trailers surely call for something other than a glamour gal----so, (dating myself now), can we not resurrect Fay Bainter (of Mrs. Wiggs & the Cabbage Patch))   Anyone recall her---Oh, how bitterwsweet when she took her family to the Grand Ole Opry--and then her house burned down.

Probably around 1948 or so---the film. Who knows about the fictional house---tears flowed copiously.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Big Mick at work
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:22 PM

Dani, I am with you. Overall I enjoyed the book, with some reservations. It had some problems but overall I thought the mental imagery to be superb.

I find it to not be useful to judge a movie based on casting. I prefer to see it and then judge the way the roles were played. Kidman and Zellweger certainly have strong women roles in them, it remains to be seen what they will do with these characters.

So much will depend on the screenplay. That is where the letdown usually comes for me. This book demands that you want to follow it where it is leading. That is what makes it a bit of a hard read. Those types of works are very difficult to translate into a screenplay. When done right, they are superb. More often than not they fail. I am hopeful that I will be happy, but I don't expect it.

Tim O'Brien.....Songs from the Mountain......does it get any better than this? His rendition of Hard Times, despite not being long enough, might be as good as it gets. Same with Angel Band.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: LadyJean
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:41 AM

I had a look at the book. One of the female characters put on a pair of her husband's pants, and I stopped believing in her. A nineteenth century woman wouldn't have done that anymore than I would take my shirt off on a hot day.
"Cold Mountain" was about modern people in funny clothes. I wasn't interested.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: BanjoRay
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:00 AM

LadyJean - some of the Victorian mountaineering ladies, accompanied by alpine guides, used to set off in skirts then change into trousers once they were past the last dwelling. Many women have always been practical, whenever they lived.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Folkie
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:12 AM

What about all the songs where a girl puts on man's attire and follows her lover to sea or to the wars? Most of them date from Napoleonic times and must have been based on real events.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM

I can't speak for anyone else.... but if my husband were gone, and his trousers were all I had, I'd be inclined to put them on just to be close to him. I think that was what Frazier was going for. My take was that he wrote a period story that would appeal to a modern audience.

Reform Dress was a hot women's lib topic in the 1860s. It involved trousers under a knee-length dress.

Nicole Kidman just doesn't fit the image I had of Ada. She's WAY too pretty and doesn't have enough grit.

I'll say it again. If you want to read a great period story with believable characters and extraordinary writing, read The Black Flower by Howard Bahr. It's available at Amazon, Borders, Barnes & Noble, anywhere fine books are sold.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:55 AM

"A nineteenth century woman wouldn't have done that anymore than I would take my shirt off on a hot day."

Sorry - not true. There are several instances of women going so far as to enlist in both sides of that particular militant disagreement and serving at the front. A friend of mine, seriously into history for its own sake, found herself drawn into re-enacting. She researched a couple of these women and went so far as to portray them and act as a "historic interpreter."

One woman (I've forgotten her name and unit, although I believe she was with a New York regiment) enlisted and served for three years. She was "discovered" in a field hospital after being wounded... the third time.   

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:50 AM

I don't think I've seen any mention in any review of the book, but I found it full of subtle references to Irish/Celtic mythology, maybe in the same way that the Irish music was adapted by the Appalachian settlers over time, the stories were nicely adapted, altered to fit the context of the novel. certainly not a masterpiece of literature, but good fiction. I look forward to reading Black Flower, and I'll let you know what I think of it then. Maybe some time I'll drag Cold Mountain out again and write up the references to Celtic myths I come across, would like to hear Frazier's comments on this.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:56 AM

Yesterday the ALABAMA ARTS RADIO SERIES had Joey Brackner interviewing David Ivey and Tim Eriksen about Sacred Harp Singing in the Movie Cold Mountain. Musical examples are included in the program.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:03 PM

George Sand (1840s?) wore men's clothing. Certainly some 19th c. pioneer women wore pants or 'overhalls' while working or riding.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:16 PM

Q, in one of my books there is a photo of a working woman wearing the Reform Dress. It never really caught on, partly because it was - well, unattractive, really - but there is some documentation of women wearing it around the farm.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: MAG
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:20 PM

In his memiors, Ezra Meeker, a long-lived pioneer on the Oregon Trail, said that "Modesty died early" on the Trail -- that invariably all the women wore bloomers from the second day or so. So all those WESTERN movies with women in long full dresses were wrong ...

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:23 AM

I'm well aware of the reformers, including Dr. Mary Walker, who always wore men's clothes, and held a comission in the Union Army.
I'm also aware that, in the 1930s, my mother felt the need to sneak up the back stairs so the minister wouldn't see she was wearing slacks. There's this thing called convention, you see.
I'm told women go topless at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. I wouldn't. It might be more comfortable, but it wouldn't be what I'm used to.
It bothers me to see Muslim women in veils. I'd hate wearing something like that. But I understand they would be even less comfortable unveiled.
My sister enjoys what we used to call "primitive camping", no plumbing at all. She prefers full skirts for this, because it's easier to relieve herself in the woods. I had a similar experience in France, the land of the coed urinal.
Writing historical fiction, it's tempting to give characters modern sensibilities. It's tough to like Jack Aubrey when he has one of his crew flogged. But I admire O'Brian for not taking the easy way out, and making Jack a 20th century man.
A nineteenth century character without at least SOME nineteenth century prejudices is not believable. Even the reformers could be absurdly conventional in their outlook.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: BanjoRay
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 07:32 PM

You can hear samples of all the tracks here. What do you think, guys?
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Matt_R
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 09:23 PM

Jack White is the freakin' MAN. I can't wait to see him in the movie, even though he only plays a bit part as a guy who plays a banjo made out of a pumpkin!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GLoux
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 01:58 PM

Sounds good...I am delighted to hear great clawhammer banjo and NO bluegrass banjo (bluegrass wasn't around back then). Like Riley said, it's not hard-core old-time, but it's good.

Too bad the clips are only 30 seconds each...I'm looking forward to seeing the movie, but I'm wondering if I should pick up the soundtrack when it is released tomorrow.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 08:59 AM

I actually got the CD yesterday (Dec 15) at Strawberry's. They had it in the back room still in the shipping carton, ready I guess to put on the shelf on the 16th.

Anyway, it was a birthday gift for my husband, who was TRANSFIXED by the music! It's really wonderful. I only half-heard it as background (we had company) but will give it a serious listen as soon as I can. The poor guy visiting us had to maintain two simultaneous conversations, one with me talking about various things and one with Frank interjecting and exclaiming about this or that song on the CD with a glazed look in his eye.

I had much trouble getting into the book, and finally gave up, which puts it in the same category as the only two other books I gave up on: James Joyce's Ulysses and Colleen McCullough's Third Millenium. Very good company, I'm told.

But I intend to see the movie and also give the book another try.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:01 PM

I was going to ask for it for Christmas. I already own recordings by Tim Eriksen, Riley Baugus, and Alison Kraus. I have more Sacred Harp recordings than anyone needs. The samples from the Gabriel Yared pieces didn't interest me.

So do I want to buy it for Cassie Franklin & Jack White? Or is this CD really for the person who does not already know about this kind of music?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 01:20 PM

I don't want to suggest that women in large numbers were running round in trousers in the mid 19th century..However it was far more common than we have been lead to believe. Many farming and sea faring women made their own versions of trousers for many reasons...comfort, affordability, and safety. I have a picture in my office of five women making hay in Eastern Canaada in 1866..they are all wearing homemade trousers. It would be interesting to know more about this topic..would it not. A subject far more appealing than the book which, to be honest, I found awfully stilted and melodramatic.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:09 PM

I've heard from a couple of people who have been to previews. They didn't mention the actors. They are giving it high marks for historical accuracy so far as the war is concerned. Also rating it as a good movie.

Some people may want to cover their eyes during the big battle scene.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 08:30 PM

Jack White, whom I hadn't heard of before, is very good on this CD. The other favorites of mine are the song by the Reeltime Travelers and the Elvis Costello (!) song "Scarlet Tide" sung by Alison Krauss. The backup musicians are such people as Norman & Nancy Blake, Suart Duncan, Mike Compton and others. Very good music, and the movie is supposed to be excellent, according to many people. I'm looking forward to seeing this one, and I only go to the movies about every 5 years...

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,michael01612
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:12 AM

I was watching a Discovery Channel documentary of the movie Cold Mountain and learned that the song "Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine" is in the movie. Played on a fiddle there, banjo here.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3240&alid=-1

Happy Holidays,

Mike

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:47 AM

The problem with those of you that think it was miscast is that you are making your judgements before you see the movie. That is because you can't separate how you see them, as opposed to waiting to see if they can pull it off. They are actors, why not wait and see if they act it out and then make your pronouncements. It seems to me that to judge before seeing the performance is something that you would not like to happen to you in your musical careers.

I will wait to see how this comes off, then I will rate it out.

Mick

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:02 PM

The local newspaper printed a review if the film today, with summaries from half a dozen other papers as well. None mentioned the music.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dani
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:10 PM

Well said, Mick. I've been trying to teach my girls the difference this way: "you're NOT in love with Johnny Depp -- you're in love with Jack Sparrow!!"

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

You're right, Mick... but I'm still skeptical. ;-) Anyhow I will rent it when it comes out on DVD.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: MAG
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:43 PM

If you think Kidman can't play ugly, you didn't see her as Virginia in *The Hours.* I wish she'd shut up about her private life, but she can act.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:33 PM

Sounds like ditch the movie, buy the CD. Be damned if I can't figure out why they couldn't have filmed it in Great Smokey Mountain National Park or Shenandoah National Park and used the Shen Valley for much of the flatland scenes.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:08 AM

The director and Kidman and Law of Cold Mountain were on Charlie Rose the other night. The director said they went to the actual battlefield and photographed everything, and took measurements of the physical configuration and then replicated everything in Romania. I did't get to see the whole show so if I don't know if they talked about the music; they didn't while I was watching.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: van lingle
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:04 AM

There is a feature coming up in this hour on music from the film on the NPR news show Morning Edition. Merry Xmas, vl.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:18 AM

In England anyway, Victorian working women routinely wore trousers; there was a book a few years ago about a man who had the hots for them and took lots of photos of crossing-sweepers, road labourers and farmworkers in their trousers. *Big* women.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 03:38 PM

I saw the movie last night. Incredibly powerful. Yes, it's a good movie but I had a VERY tough time with all the graphic violence, not to mention a very tough time comprehending what people do and did to each other during war and during everyday life.

Renne Zellweger gives an amazing performance and deserves the nomination for best (supporting) actress. All the acting was very good, but somehow Nicole Kidman was just too beautiful, even during scenes with no makeup and swollen red eyes. Not her fault, of course. Jude Law's beauty somehow didn't bother me!

The music was incidental but very appropriate in the movie. There are a few songs on the soundtrack that I don't remember hearing in the movie, but that could be because of the gripping drama. The best song (in my opinion) was Scarlet Tide sung by Alison Krauss, and that doesn't happen until a few minutes into the final credits, so most people were not in the theater to hear it.

I'd like to see portions of this movie again, but probably couldn't do so unless I could fast-forward past the truly disturbing scenes, of which there were many. (Tears started shortly after the beginning and lasted intermittently to the end). Glad I went to see this, glad I have the soundtrack. So sorry I can't deny the horror of stories like this.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 12:43 PM

I saw it last night, and came away with mixed feelings. The real problem (not solved by the film) is the structural flaw in the book (which I won't discuss for those who haven't seen the film or read the book). But it is a truly beautiful film, and well worth seeing, very powerful, the nearly three hours just zipped by. The music was strangely not present, I don't know quite why, even with the fiddle and banjo around. It is certainly not going to spark some great revival (that is already underway anyway).

It is certainly a strange problem that the hills of Carolina appear to be inhabited by beautiful film stars -- like Natalie Portman. The film would have been much better if everyone was a little plainer (Nicole Kidman becomes absurdly radiant as the film continues. In the final winter scenes, one expects the snow to melt around her). Some of the scenes are beautifully done -- again, well worth seeing, plunging in.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 12:50 PM

Two great reviews. It sounds as I expected. Peter, what was your opinion of Renee Zellwigers performance? How about Law's?

I hope to see it this weekend.

Mick

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 01:04 PM

Last of the Mohicans was filmed in North Carolina. The only reason Cold Mountain wasn't filmed there was MONEY. It's cheaper to go to Romania. How thoughtful of them to support the American film industry.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 01:26 PM

"The real problem (not solved by the film) is the structural flaw in the book..."

now I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what this could be.

So my doubts re Kidman seem to have been well-founded. I'm hoping to see the movie this weekend. I'm still anxious despite my misgivings about the casting.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 01:49 PM

I think the best thing about the film is that it is a really big old Hollywood film -- everyone throws themselves into it. But that is also its problem (if that is a problem). I thought that RZ's performance was way over the top (lots of cheap laughs), but it worked occasionally, she became charming. Jude Law was excellent. The real problem, as mentioned, is that they were so beautiful, you found it hard to believe any hardship had ever marked them, or ever really could. It is a change, of course, in sentiment: I can't imagine people in 1940 were troubled by how beautiful Clark Gable and Vivian Leigh were. That was how film stars and films were. If you don't mind that, then you will love the film.

I haven't underscored how much I enjoyed it, I would recommend it highly. There are many fine moments, things done with great care. It just isn't quite as "great" as it seems to want to be. I think if it were grittier, it would have caught my heart.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 12:04 AM

Wow.

Took forever to get back to my head, then get home, driving down the highway stoned from the violence, the emotion, the scary thought that it probably was AT LEAST as bad in real life.

We have no idea what it's like to be truly cold, or hungry, or really really scared. What little sap there was, what little distraction of lovely scenery, were eaten up by the sheer spectrum of suffering.

Good thing we couldn't move for a long time: we caught Riley's name at the end! Go Riley! Why did they put everyone in reverse alphabetical order ; )

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 01:55 AM

It was a fine film. I was more impressed by the film than the book, actually. They could have improved the casting, but that's true of almost every Civil War film I've ever seen. Actually, it speaks well of the music that it does not jump out at you. It shouldn't; the film was not about the music. I heard T-Bone on the radio, twice, explaining that the music is actually rock, and that he did not want to make "another folk music film." Which is o.k., they had serious professionals writing the tunes.

One thing, though. Whose idea was it to name an "Appalachian" tune, My Ain True Love? As if it were about Scotland? And why?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 10:34 AM

Saw it last night, and enjoyed it hugely. A couple comments:

I am a great admirer of Renee Zellweger. In this movie, however, I found her characterization to be, as someone above said, over the top, and I'd say a little artificial.

I went into the theater prepared to be underwhelmed by Nicole Kidman. I was pleased to be surprised. First rate, in my view. Yes, there were times in the latter part of the picture where she was too perfect, visually, but that's the director and makeup man's fault, not hers.

I also went prepared to be offended by the huge battle additions that weren't in the book. Afterwards, though, I realized that in the novel the nature of the war had been handled through his recollections, which couldn't be done that way in a film, and it was really necessary to establish what he was coming home from in order to understand him.

The sex scene was unnecessary in a storytelling sense, or at least could have been story-established with a lot less time and detail. But I guess in this day and age Hollywood thinks that if you can show it, you have to show it.

I absolutely cannot imagine what is meant by calling the music--any of it--rock and roll. I've heard T-Bone's comments on that, but it makes no sense whatever. I think his saying that was an attempt to get over what he may have perceived as a disinclination of younger viewers to see a movie with what he might have characterized as old-fashioned music.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 11:20 AM

Haven't seen the film yet - might go tomorrow; it's on in Dublin somewhere. But it's struck me in several recent films that people appear too beautiful, and I've been puzzled - until I realised that it wasn't the beauty of the individuals, so much as the fact that they were among a totally *young* group.

It appears that there are no aged people and few ordinary scruffy children in films any more. There's just a Midwich-Cuckoos-like or Stepford-Wives-like population of twentysomething and thirtysomething beauties. Eerie.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM

Guest Dani says, "We have no idea what it's like to be truly cold, or hungry, or really really scared."

Bullshit!!! You are insulting a lot of people who were on the front lines in ANY war - and that includes a lot of catters.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 02:23 PM

I HATED the book. Way too many lucky coincidences (Ruby, the goat woman) and improbabilities, and I thought the ending was unpardonably melodramatic and self-righteous.

I agree; I'd rather have seen Cate Blanchett, or somebody whose demeanor is less pert than Nicole Kidman's, as Ada. I'm not saying she isn't a fine actress, I'm only saying that I cannot reconcile what I've seen of her with my impression of the character in the book.

Unfortunately, the first film I ever saw of Jude Law's was _Wilde_ and I've never been able to get over my first impression of him as a prissy, petulant, b*tch. I can't see him looking haggard enough for a post-Civil War movie.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 02:27 PM

Actually, I thought the sex scene worked surprisingly well: not so much the sex part (usual ridiculous shots of bits of people's bodies), but the before and after parts. It was the one part of the movie that I completely believed in, it was all done with great something, finesse, manners, hesitancy, the actors finally inhabiting their vulnerability. This in contrast to the book, where it is a failure of the imagination.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dani
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 03:11 PM

Please, Guest, forgive my gross over-generalization. You are right, of course. I meant present-day Americans as a GROUP.

And I guess I was thinking more of the ordeal of the folks in the movie who WEREN'T on the front lines. We see and read how soldiers suffer, if we're paying attention, in wars of any era. I was facing for the first time the very real suffering in the outer ripples of the war.

We are, as a group, a very comfy people. Even in poverty, we can expect to have running water, most of us, and a food bank or soup kitchen somewhere if the food runs out, and shelter of SOME kind at the end of a day, and the expectation that enemy soldiers are in someone else's backyard, not our own.

I don't know what my point was: simply noticing.

Now, when Sue vG gets back, will she please post about the story about the song from the movie that she knew all the verses of? It's a great story, and I want to know where in the movie it was.

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:11 PM

Dani:

I just reread your first and second posts. You are right! I overreacted to the first one and I should not have. Yes, there are some unpleasant memories I cannot erase after all these years, but they have nothing to do with you, and I am very sorry I sounded so angry. Please forgive me!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: plum
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:49 PM

i'm just going to see jack white. and shouldn't meg be in as well?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dani
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:09 PM

Well, OK Guest! Peace at least between us.

Now, have you seen the movie? And, as I presume you are a veteran, I'm interested to know what you thought of it. And I know there are other Mudcat war veterans out there. What did you think?

I think it said in a very powerful way that there has GOT to be a better way to settle differences between people and peoples.

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:12 AM

Dani, while I understand your reaction, I don't think either the book or the movie say that.

The message from the book AND the movie is about people's resilience, their ability to roll with the punch and live through the terrible things that sometimes happen.

Now, what a thoughtful viewer may make of the terrible circumstances shown is another matter, but I don't see either the book or the movie as setting out to teach that "there's got to be a better way" or any other political message.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:53 AM

saw the film on New Years Eve and was quite disappointed. I thought it a pretty lousy movie and would not recommend it to anyone. Though mostly faithful to the story of the book, it had none of it's spirit. Even though it is not a Great book, it's decent, and full of references to old Irish and Celtic legend and the like, which is lost inthe film. Renee Zelwieger is a bit over the top in her portrayal, as has been said. Kidman and Law are just Kidman and Law, just as you can't see her preacher father and not say 'That's Donald Sutherland!' the movie would have been helped by casting less well known actors, in my opinion, but it would also have had to have been written and directed a lot better. There is no growth or change or development in any of the characters in the film. they are the same from begining to end. even Sally, whose husband and sons are killed before her eyes and is tortured and left for dead, she has the same goofy smile in every scene from the first time we see her to the last. not changed at all by her experience. and it's as if nothing's changed by the war in the whole area of Cold Mountain. just a little inconvenience to get through. I thought the actor who played the 'albino' home guard killer was all wrong. in the book he is a child, maybe 10 or so. in the movie he is old enough to be in the war. why isn't he at the front? he's at least in his late teens early 20s from the look of him. should have been a much younger actor. The woman who plays the Goat Woman was good, just right for the part, but none of her instruction and teaching of Inman is in the film. she just nurses him a little and sends him on his way. Jack White doesn't play a gourd banjo in the film, he plays a bowl back mandolin, which I don't think were that common in the 1860s. the music wasn't very prominent in the film, almost not there at all. and at least in one case a bit anachronistic, I think, Ruby's father in the film at one point is singing 'sittin on top of the world' which I think was written in the 1920s by the Mississippi Sheiks. there is not enough music in the film to warrant going to see it for the music. better off with the cd, but even that is not that great, who needs an Elvis Costello song?
I like Elvis Costello's music, but it doesn't add anything to this project except his name. and the sex scene as mentioned above is not worth the admission price and not really necessary. when you first see inman sleeping naked after they just come in the door you think, that's faster than in the old movies of the fifties, not even a fade out, then comes the flashback with all the naughty bits!. How artistic! hace to give this one a C-. not the worst film of the year, but not worth the time it takes to watch it.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:56 AM

I think the message of the movie is that if you are beautiful, people will do many, many things for you; and you will find other like-faced people of your own aesthetic class.

And this is true.

yours,

Peter T.

(just joking)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:51 AM

Dani:

Thanks for your compassion!

Haven't seen the movie yet, and from the sound of things, I'm not sure I will. I don't go to war movies of any kind any more. I did a couple times way back when, and was disgusted by them glorifying war and making it look glamorous. Yes, I am a veteran, and never saw anything about war that was anything but senseless. I am in my seventies now, and what I'd like to see is a rule that those people who declare a war must lead the troops into battle.

I will buy the CD, though!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:19 PM

GUEST, I sure wouldn't say that THIS movie glorified or made war look glorious!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:27 PM

People are always wanting to do many many things for me. I hang out with other beautiful people.

Except here.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:45 PM

Saw the movie tonight.

Let me begin with my impression of the book, as it gives the context for the comments about the movie. I have never thought this book is headed for classic status. What it is is a damn good yarn set in front of an amazing geographical and historical backdrop. While it has its problems in its basic construction, I was pretty amazed that the author was able to have pretty good continuity in the character developement and story line, given that there were so many. Also given that this was his first novel. Each of the major and minor characters had a fairly complicated setup, and with a few glitches, he managed to carry it off. As I said, it was just a damn good yarn set against a very interesting time, and in this beautiful place.

I thought the movie captured the times and the places very well. I would certainly rather have had it filmed in the Carolina's. But they did manage to find a place that gave appropriate homage to the settings of the novel. I did not find the war settings overly graphic. In fact, I would have preferred that they were more graphic. But this comes from my life experience. It would be fine with me if people retched during the scenes of war and its aftermath. I want people to see that there is no valiant death. I have seen it first hand and I must tell you that people never die heroically. It is ugly, nasty, heartwrenching and life changing to witness. Enough of the editorial. I thought the scenes were realistic and that is fine.

I thought that Kidman did a fine job as Ada. I thought she captured the character as it was intended. I did not think she was "too attractive" for the role. That implies that women from the mid 19th century couldn't be that attractive. In fact, Ada was a southern woman of her times and Kidman caught her visually as well as her foibles and strengths. The only failing in her role had nothing to do with her characterization. As has been implied, it was a problem with makeup and wardrobe in the reuniting segments.

I wonder if those who thought Zellwigger was over the top have read the book recently? The character is over the top. She is the product of a very troubling childhood. It causes her to hide her vulnerabilities with over the top actions and manners. I thought she captured that well, as well as the underlying little girl. I loved this character in the book, and I enjoyed Renee's rendition of her greatly. One of the problems with this movie is that beyond Inman and Ada, they didn't do enough developement of the reasons for the personalities. This showed with Ruby, and especially with her Da, Georgia, and the banjo player. I remember watching during the execution scene on the mountain, looking around and realizing that many of these folks didn't even realize what an interesting character the banjo player was.

I agree with Peter. It is a beautiful movie. It has its problems, but I will buy it when it comes out on DVD. But anyone that thinks they will wait for that is going to miss out. This one needs to be seen on the big screen.

One more thing. The producer should be thoroughly chastised for not bringing the music more into the production. It was wonderful, but it deserved the type of role that it had in the book. But to do that, they would have had to do more with the secondary characters. And they should have.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: toadfrog
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM

Well, Big Mick, that's a very well-considered statement, and I agree with almost everything you said, especially about Ruby. She was necessary to the story and quite persuasive. I don't think "over the top," because I've known people like that, and suspect there were a lot more of them in the old backwoods.

Only, I'm not sure what you mean about the "role" music had in the book. All I recall about music in the book was that Ada's old man, an old reprobate, suddenly and inexplicably reformed himself by discovering he was a musical genius and became a fine fellow. I've never seen that happen in life. That seemed to me a pretty artificial plot device, but I forgave the author. The film has a couple of scenes with brilliant fiddle playing. It seems to me that gave justice to the musical aspect of the book.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 07:26 PM

OK, toadfrog, fair enough. But I recall that the old man went through quite a transformation as his musical interest progressed. I recall his "dead man tuning". The music was central enough to the character developement that Tim O'Brien along with two others did a CD called Music From the Mountain which was based on the songs of the novel. I guess what I am saying is that the music wasn't invisible in the movie, but it surely didn't play the role it played in the book. But I think that goes along with the fact that they couldn't or just didn't develop the secondary characters very well. But all things considered, I feel they did a credible job. And the old man did allude to the things we are discussing.

Fair observation. Got me thinking.

Mick

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,bluebeard
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:04 PM

I saw the movie two nights ago. I loved the book,( although the ending blew me away.)I also loved the movie. True, the secondary characters were not developed but how could they in two and a half hours. I am hoping the DVD has the 4 hour version, which may spend more time on the musical aspect.
The battle scene was superb (and horrible...as war is.) They got it right with the North Carolina buttons too.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 08:53 PM

Hi everyone.

We saw the movie in North Carolina before we came home and both thought it was a very powerful film. Neither of us have read the book, but I guess we might now. Agree with lots of the comments above - I found the violent scenes very disturbing and watched through my hands, but it never felt like gratuitous violence, it was necessary to show the horror to put the film into context.

Loved the music, although would have liked it to have been given more prominence. We do feel though that it made lots of the scenes even more powerful.

Dani, the song that Riley sang when he was over in the UK was "I wish, I wish" He said that only one verse had been collected in the Appalachians and the two other verses had been added for the film. This is a verse from a song I sing that has been collected in the UK in many versions. My particular song is called "A brisk young sailor courted me" but it is also known as "I wish, I wish". I sang the song at the club Riley performed at and he was really interested to hear the complete song. My variant was collected by Ann Gilchrist from a 70 year old carpenter called Mr James Bayliff, probably from Cumbria (The Lake District, England). I learned it from an old vinyl record by Paul and Linda Adams called "Far over the fell" (Songs and ballads of Cumbria) SFA 027 recorded in 1975.

The tune differs from the film one but as the words are the same, the rhythm is pretty similar. If you are interested, I will post the other verses, just let me know.

Love, Sue vG

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dani
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM

Please do, Sue! It's a wonderful story about how music travels.

Dani

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 01:36 AM

Is it close to the version collected by Percy Grainger? I have posted it in the thread "I Wish, I Wish," 18360; the original website has a very good midi: I Wish I Wish
Seemingly part of the widespread 'Butcher Boy' group, but the verses about the apron string may have floated.

I haven't seen the film yet, so I may have the wrong tune.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:36 AM

Saw it on Tuesday. Pretty good movie I'd say, but I haven't read the book. And pretty good music too, although its presence in the film was rather muted. There were some very moving scenes, and I think all the principle actors suited their parts just fine, Nicole Kidman included. (I suspect there were a fair number of southern belles that were every bit as good looking as she is.) I thought the scene with the young woman and her baby at the isolated cabin was just heart-wrenching when she asked Inman to sleep beside her (and nothing more than that). Among anti-war films this is one of the best. Who could feel enthusiastic about launching a war after seeing such a movie? Not many.

- LH

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:36 AM

It sure sounded to me like a "Butcher Boy" song.

One of the nice things for me about the movie was that whenever people did break into song I was able to connect with it because of all the things I had learned here on Mudcat. What I missed was having Rick Fielding tell me about all the wrong things they had done with the musical instruments! (he won't go and see movies at regular theatres)



yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM

I tried to read the music credits at the end of the film, but only caught some on the left side of the screen

Probably by the end of the year the film will be on video and/or DVD; I don't have the machines but someone will be able to study the credits.

Did I read rightly that Brendan Gleeson himself played the fiddle on at least one track|?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 01:03 PM

8_pints, I would like to see the lyrics posted as well.
Looking at the list of tracks on the cd of the soundtrack, "I Wish, I Wish" or any of the alternate titles I know it by aren't there. Riley Baugus sings The Cuckoo and joins on "I Wish My Baby Was Born," but the clip seems to be a different tune and the few words on the clip are unfamiliar.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM

I answered my own question by doing a web search for +"Brendan Gleeson" +fiddle

Of course some of the items I found simply describe Gleeson's part in the film, but yes, the man can play and he got his agent to tell director Minghella that he has this talent as well as being an accomplished actor!

Minghella sent Irish actor Gleeson to study old-time music with T-Bone Burnett. " 'It was wonderful meeting these musicians and hanging out with them,' [Gleeson] said. 'I've been interested in this music for 10 years. I'd listened to a lot of tapes, but I'd never heard it live before.' " (article by Jeff Strickler at http://www.startribune.com/stories/411/4273998.html)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 01:26 PM

from http://abqjournal.com/venue/personalities/126081person12-26-03.htm :

"Because his musical skills were limited, most of the music heard in the film was actually performed by a professional fiddler named Stuart Duncan and a vocalist named Tim Erickson and dubbed in over his performance.
    "We recorded the tracks in Nashville before filming," Gleeson says. "They mixed me in a bit, but most of what you hear is Stuart and Tim."

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 04:25 PM

My wife brought home the CD soundtrack from the movie last night.

After listening to about 1/2 of it, I couldn't stand it any longer.

Outside of Allison Krause, some of the worst singing I have heard in a while. Quite irritating. What a let down.

I would much rather hear traditional music performed by people who can carry a tune, or rather not at all.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Arkie
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:41 PM

When I read Cold Mountain several years back I was discussing it with a friend who grew up near Cold Mountain in North Carolina. He commented that a relative of his had been in school with Charles Frazier. Frazier had grown up in that area and hoped to capture something of a lifestyle that he had witness disappear within his lifetime. Supposedly Frazier's inspiration for the book came from family tales of a relative named Inman who decided to come home from the war. Some of you may be interested in what Frazier had to say about his novel. You can find his comments here:
Cold Mountain

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 05:37 AM

Sue vG, not 8_Pints, but I can't be bothered to change the cookie every time I want to post from our shared computer!

The version of the song I sing:

A brisk young sailor courted me
He robbed me of my liberty
He stole it with a free good will
But I must confess, I love him still

There is an alehouse in the town
Where my love goes and sits him down
He takes a strange girl all on his knee
Now isn't that a slight to me

A slight to me and I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I
But her gold will waste and her beauty pass
And he'll come to a poor girl like me at last

When I carried my apron low
My true love followed through frost and snow
But now my apron is to my chin
He passes me by and says nothing

There is a lad on yonder hill
Who has a heart as hard as steel
He has two hearts instead of one
And he'll still have mine when I am gone

I wish my baby it was born
And smiling on it's daddy's knee
And I myself was in my grave
With the long green grass growing over me

I wish, I wish but it's all in vain
I wish I was a maid again
But a maid again I never will be
Til apples grow on the orange tree

There are obviously several floating verses that crop up in lots of songs but I think these fit together pretty well. (It is known that old ballad singers would mix and match verses from various songs - it seems to me that it is a bit like using Lego bricks - build yourself a ballad!)
It is the "I wish my baby it was born" verse that was used in Cold Mountain. Riley did say that the other two verses had been written to extend the song for the film.

What do you think?

Sue vG

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 06:10 AM

Sue vG again!

I've just come to the thread on "I wish, I wish" lower down the page.
There are lots more versions of this song there - all subtley different but clearly the same song.

Sue vG

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 08:38 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 01:20 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:11 AM

have now seen the film twice-exceptional in all respects. I have never been a N Kidman fan but I can't imagine anyone else in the role of Ada and the music was phenomenal. The only irritation was Ray Winstone, who is a wonderful British actor but who I think struggled with the accent. Definitely going to get the cd and the DVD and if they throw Jude Law in as well I will be a happy woman!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:47 AM

Went to see the film the other day, and found it shallow. Good music, but!

One thing interested me: the 'sacred harp' music in the church; the beginning of the hymn was so like the traditional psalm singing in the Scottish islands.

Once it got going it wasn't similar, mind.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:13 AM

I saw it two days ago. I thought it was superb- a very good rendition of the book. One surprise in it for me was the tune "Ruby With The Eyes That Sparkle" which "Stobrod" said he wrote. I've been playing it for years as "Shove The Pig's Foot A Little Further Into The Fire". I suppose its real title in the credits would have upset animal lovers.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:30 PM

Unless it's an in-joke - the cynical old Da playing this song he supposedly composed, cozening his poor daughter with the idea that it's Ruby With the Eyes that Sparkle, when in fact it's Shove the Pig's Foot. Male chauvinist pig's foot, even!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: SmilingMusician
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 10:25 PM

Saw the movie today... bought the sound track an hour later. Both superb! I wish there had been more Sacred Harp singing... brings tears to my eyes every time.

Regarding Guest Martin Gibson's comment above -

"My wife brought home the CD soundtrack from the movie last night.
After listening to about 1/2 of it, I couldn't stand it any longer.
Outside of Allison Krause, some of the worst singing I have heard in a while. Quite irritating. What a let down.
I would much rather hear traditional music performed by people who can carry a tune, or rather not at all."

Mr. Martin, you obviously haven't seen the film. If you had, you'd know that the songs performed in the context of the film were not done by polished professionals. If they had sounded more professoinal, you'd have more negative comments similar to the ones about Nicole Kidman being too beautiful for her role. The music in the film was done by ordninary characters that seemed to live their parts very realistically. It was EXCELLENT, as was the whole project.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:28 AM

Well, despite the mixed reviews, I'll watch the movie, and I'll most definitely buy the sound-track. I want to hear the music.

I can always count on good old 'catters to lead me on an adventure. I went searching for Cold Mountain and found the thread on Shape Note or Sacred Harp Music which I've been interested in for a long time.

Thank you, 'catters! ;)
Teresa

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Folkie
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:13 AM

I went to see the film on Saturday having read the book a couple of years ago and thought it was excellent. The music fitted the context and the fiddle playing was superb

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 07:01 PM

SmilingMusician,
Instead of going into a studio for recording, @50 Sacred Harp singers were invited to a singing at Liberty Church in Alabama. They sang for a couple of hours in just as they would at an all day singing & it was all recorded. Just the 2 on the soundtrack were used in the movie. The word in FASOLA circles is that there will be a CD released from the rest of the tunes recorded.

Teresa, I clicked your name & see you're in San Francisco Bay area. I hope you've found the Sacred Harp Singers there. I don't know of any in LasVegas.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 09:36 PM

It's been almost a month since I saw the film, and at least a week or two since I last read this thread. I've been thinking about my reponse off and on, and now I guess it's about time I chipped in my two-cents.

I read the book when it became available at the public library (i.e., well after it had become a best-seller), and did not particularly enjoy it. The various horrendous events were just *so* overwhelming that I felt that, as a reader, I was being manipulated. That melodramatic quality, coupled with the romantic aspect of the story, made me regard the whole enterprise as a bit of a soap opera -- "Bridges of Madison County" for history buffs. I suppose I just couldn't manage the necessary suspension of disbelief that any work of art requires.

To me, the movie worked better than the book because both the horrible battle scenes and the lyrical/sentimental scenes were right up in my face. I had less choice about whether I wanted to take them seriously -- I had to go along with the author's (and the director's) intentions.

I liked the music well enough, although I expected more (or more prominent) music. I was most impressed by the "Sacred Harp" hymn singing -- I have heard *about* this particular genre for years, but never actually heard the singing. As far as I'm concerned, it was great, a real revelation. Anyone who criticizes it because they've heard better . . . well, I envy you for what you've been able to listen to.

I think the criticism that Nicole was/is "too beautiful" for the part is ridiculous.

First of all, does anyone seiously believe that humans are better-looking today than a mere century-and-a-half ago? There may have been a lot of cultural and technological changes in the intervening years, but there can hardly have been any significant physical evolution of the human race. Some of us are better looking than others, of course, both now and then -- and of course fashions have changed -- but any face anyone can possibly have been born with in 1950 or 1960 could as easily have appeared on a person born in 1800 or 1500 or 20 BC or whenever.

Also: Her character was a privileged young white woman from the city of Charleston. She never had to do a lick of work, put her hands into hot dishwater, or even venture into the sun without a parasol. They had slaves to do everything for them. *Nobody* in the world today is as pampered as were girls like her, so it is historically correct for her to appear absolutely ethereal, especially when she first appears.

As the film progresses, Ada undergoes some hardships and also becomes more competant at taking care of business for herself, and I think Kidman (along with her makeup people, etc.) does a brilliant job of portraying the changes. She really exudes a different kind of beauty at the end of the film than in the beginning, radiating a healthier and more self-confident aura than the pale porcelain doll we see at first.

One last observation: I read in my American history books about "the carpetbaggers and the scalawags," but I never really understood the scalawag phenomenon a well as I do now, after seeing the "Home Guard" villains as portrayed in this film. (I suppose I *should* have gotten it from the book, but as mentioned above, I had problems getting myself fully involved in the book.)

Hmmm -- guys who avoid the risk and dirty work of actually serving as soldiers, but who make damn sure that other poor suckers do their duty while at the same time profiteering and living off the suffering of their fellow citizens. I suppose there's nothing new under the sun, and politicians taday aren't really doing anything that hasn't been done before.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Teresa
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:16 PM

It never occurred to me to check out a Sacred Harp group here, but I'll follow that pointer you provided, Burke. Thanks for remembering my Vegas move. I have not found much in the way of events there, but will keep trying, and listen to various things on the web.

PoppaGator, thanks for the comments. I am still hemming and hawing about seeing the movie.

Is it possible that some people are using the word "beautiful" when they actually mean "glamourous?" Maybe some feel Kidman is too glamorous for the role? I think there is a distinction to be made, but I also take your point, PG, that she might well represent the character she played.

Anyhow, I was all over the map here, but there you have it. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: 8_Pints
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:53 PM

BAFTA awards(UK) results:

Best actress in a supporting role
Renee Zellweger - Cold Mountain

Best Music - Cold Mountain
Congratulations to Riley Baugus, et al.

Definitely agree with the verdict for once!!!

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Compton
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:46 PM

Just as I was going off Rene Zellweger, she looks good in this!.
Is it me though that thinks every time Rene smiles, she looks like she's swallowed a wasp!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:32 PM

I hear thru the Sacred Harp grapevine that there will be shape note singing at the Oscars! One of our Tucson singers has a Dallas friend who has been invited to be in the group that does it.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM

Seems to me that wasps suit her then.

I can't say that Nicole Kidman has ever really registered much. She just doesn't stick in my memory. I probably wouldn't recognise her if I saw her walking down the street.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Nickp
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:08 PM

Saw it during the week. OK so it's not filmed in my favourite holiday area of western NC (big shame) and some of the music leaves much to be desired and I'm not convinced by Nicole K. but the rest of it was impressive and reasonably true to the book. Listening to Jude and Renee talk, someone had done a great job on voice coaching. Glad I saw it and will buy the video (still too old fashioned for dvd yet!). It was strange sitting in an empty cinema at the end just to Riley's name...

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 03:16 PM

It always puzzles me the way people dash out of the cinema, as if somehow it's unlucky to see the credits. And this time that meant they missed Elvis Costello's song, which is one of the best things in the film, maybe the best.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Burke
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:24 PM

Here's the word from someone else who will be there.

The Academy Awards will air live from 5:30 to 8:30 Pacific time. The Sacred Harp singers will perform approximately an hour into the show. They are billed as "Sacred Harp Singers of Liberty Church" because Liberty Church in Henager, Alabama is where the recording session for Cold Mountain took place. There will be @37 singers from Georgia, Alabama, Texas, New York, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Illinois, Michigan, and Minnesota.

They will be singing two numbers on the show. The first is the Elvis Costello song "The Scarlet Tide" from Cold Mountain. Allison Krauss will be singing the song as she did on the soundtrack.

Right after that, the Sacred Harp singers will be singing Liberty, pg 137. (not on the soundtrack)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:59 PM

Well it's a while since I saw it but I keep remembering how stunning the "And am I born to die" hymn singing was, over the massacre at the beginning.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 10:03 AM

Bill Kennedy, I think you've about got it right. We rented the dvd last night and tried watching it. Turned it off after the old lady killed her goat.

Our sound system isn't the best, but I had a hard time hearing much of the music over all of the gratuitious violence and I wasn't the only one who thought the violence was over the top. (Yes, I know it showed what it is really like in war, but contrast that to war scenes in something like "Legends of the Fall" and you'll know what I mean.)

I guess not being able to stand Alison Krause's voice and rendition of songs didn't help, but I really was looking forward to seeing this and was sorely disappointed.

kat

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From:
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 10:58 AM

Hey, all this talk about the singing but does anyone know what kind of hat Nicole was wearing? The black one, specifically. I know, how superficial, but what can I say, I liked the hat!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: black walnut
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

I thought it was a really good movie. There, I said it. And I agree with McGrath too.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM

all of you people defending Nicole Kidman's 'beauty' in the film obviously have not read the book. her character is described as being notably plain, but with exceptionally dark hair. so, personal tastes aside, that is not Nicole Kidman, who would wear a false nose for a role, but not a dark wig? so many things wrong with this movie, when it could have been quite good. I stand by my earlier post

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: SmileHabitat
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:15 AM

I think I enjoyed reading this old thread more than the movie! I just watched it on DVD last night. But I have to say, I am shocked no one mentioned how very, very bad the actors' North Carolina accents were in this film! I have family from the area and vacation in the Outer Banks area often. I didn't read the book, but listened to it driving through the area on my way there for a vacation.

Those accents were so pitiful, I couldn't suspend disbelief about much in this film--I could barely understand Jude Law, who seemed to be talking with marbles in his mouth! To me the actors were badly miscast, and the director didn't get the essence of the book, the country, or the people. Of course, he was British. As is Jude Law. And Nicole Kidman, Aussie. Brendan Gleeson, Irish. Shot in Romania. Much lost in translation in this one!

However, the film looked mahvelous! Just like a completely implausible Hollywood period love story should look! Beautiful sets, costumes, cinematography, and the soundtrack was first rate. The screenplay, very pedestrian--definitely second rate.

I had imagined Inman as a Sam Shepard in his prime sort of character, and thought someone like Robert Downey Jr would have been good in the part. I imagineda Winona Ryder or Reese Witherspoon in the Ada role, and a Mary Louise Parker or Lauren Graham type in the Ruby role. Rene   Zellweger is always over the top IMO, so nothing new here. I actually thought the best acting in the film came from Natalie Portman.

The screenplay was truly awful though. What a mess the film was! I watched it with two friends who hadn't read the book, and they had a hard time figuring it all out. Random characters appearing and disappearing that didn't move the plot along, that sort of thing. And it isn't like the director/writer isn't up to the challenge--he wrote the screenplays for The English Patient and The Talented Mr. Ripley.

But hey--based upon peoples' recommendations in these Cold Mountain threads (what I stopped in for today), I'll definitely track down the soundtrack. I truly enjoyed the music & second what was said about the Elvis Costello song.

Let's hope the Prairie Home Companion movie turns out better than this!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: bbc
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 07:49 AM

Yup, I liked the book better, too, but I liked Sheila Kay Adams' book w/ a similar theme--My Old True Love--even better.

You can order it at her website--

Sheila Kay Adams

and, if you like Civil War era music, that's her husband's speciality.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:02 AM

It has been a lot of years since I was in North Carolina but I spent a summer in the western part of the state and a summer on Harker's Island amongst the Hoigh Toiders as well as other coastal folk. The accents were quite different.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,SmileHabitat
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:45 AM

Indeed, the accents do change as you move around the region. My wife's father is from the Asheville area and her mother is from Raleigh, where they live and my wife grew up. We don't hear much of the coastal accent when we are in the Outer Banks, though. More NY accents!

Ironic isn't it, when an American actor plays a British/Scottish/Irish role and they complain about mangled accents, yet when it comes to regional accents from the US, few seem to pay the regional accents any mind. I remember being so impressed with Frances McDormand's accent in "Fargo". William H Macy's attempt at the NoDak accent was OK, but sounded too forced.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM

Resurrected rather than start a new thread!

I saw it for the first time last night. Seemed OK from an outsiders POV. Kept expecting Ray Winstone to break into Cockney but at least his part was in keeping:-)

Couldn't figure out what Bridget Jones did in it.

Where did the native American looking guy fit in?

Music was good. Scenery was stunning.

I think Mrs G would have enjoyed it more than me but she fell asleep - Not a slight on the film, understand. She just does!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:35 AM

Oh - and what were the hand actions in the church all about?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Den
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:33 AM

"I wish my baby", sounds a lot like "the butcher boy", is that where it comes from. I have the soundtrack and enjoy it very much. I find these threads are so useful for so many reasons. Someone above, may have been Kim recommended the book "The Black Flower". I work in a library so I searched our catalogue for it. It was checked out but I found a reader's advisory for another book of the period called, "The Killer Angels" and I'm really enjoying it. Thanks again catters.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Effsee
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:41 AM

Davetg, it's known as Shape Note singing I believe, but just exactly what that is I'm not awfully sure.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

In regard to the shape note singing, if their arms are moving up & down, they're counting the timing of the songs.

bbc

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:44 PM

Accents change over time too. There's no particular reason to think that acents in Noryh Carolina back in the 1860s were particularly similar to accents these days.

If I think about the way people talk in the places I have lived, that has certainly changed radically in all kind of ways just in the time I've been around.

Scenery was indeed amazing. Romanian scenery I gather. Looks like a good place to visit some time.

Pretty good film. A shame they had Nicola Kidman. Renée Zellweiger was a bit reminiscent of Doris Day in Calamity Jane which perhaps wasn't quite right (though I always liked Doris Day in Calamity Jane - if they wever do a remake I hope Renée gets cast.) Wouldn't mind seeing it again. I might come in a few minutes late, so as to miss that massacre - though that'd mean missing the singing as well, which would be a pity.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:04 AM

A massacre with singing!! Was it the killers or the victims who sang?or everyone?

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:10 AM

Read the book. Beats the shit out of the film.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Declan
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:12 PM

Personally speaking' I enjoyed the film a lot. I haven't read the book and while I like a lot of American folk music I wouldn't understand the subtlety of the difference between Old Timey and bluegrass or the various fiddle styles.

Brendan Gleeson is from near where I come from in Dublin and I have known him as a fiddle player for many years. I thought the casting decision was great in terms of the availability of a name known in Hollywood and the US in general who could actually play the fiddle. I doubt if there would be may alternatives available. He also put his fiddle playing talent to good use in "Gangs of New York".

I'd be interested in hearing opinions as to how well his fiddle playing worked given that his native Irish style would be quite different to the old timey style required in the film.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Gray D
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:20 PM

Note for effsee and dave the gnome, it was Shape Note - go here to find out more. Sounds like you might be in the UK and a lot of it goes on here but it is not exactly mainstream so if you're intrigued have a hunt around, find a "sing" and go along. It is pretty stirring stuff to experience live - particularly if you are a singer.

Gray D

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Gray D
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:24 PM

Captain Slog supplemental:-

UK Shape Note info is here

Gray D

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GUEST,magpie
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:41 AM

"A massacre with singing!!"

I was blown away by this opening scene. I went home and started digging around to find out more about the song. I found the name, Idumea... then I went looking for what "Idumea" meant. It's, of course, biblical and refers to a place. But then I found this:

The meaning of Idumea
Origin: Biblical
Meaning: Red, earthy, bloody.

woah... a very appropriate connection to that battle where all participants are caught up in a soup of mud and blood.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 02:40 AM

I read about half the book. It was cumbersome and tedious in places. I don't know if this was a first book but it seemed like it was. Sorry, I didn't have enough interest to find out. Believe it or not a very conservative preacher loaned it to me with his recommendation! I need to get it back to him.
Since the movie I doubt seriously that I will ever finish the book.

With regards to the movie it was a work of art in it's own right. I'd go **1/2 but not ***. The music was probably the best part.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Scoville
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:42 AM

I just went back and listened to the soundtrack.

1) Who thought that "Sitting on Top of the World" was Civil War era?

2) Alison Krauss and Jack White are just too modern for this kind of thing.

3) Shove that Pig's Foot a Little Further in the Fire!


Could they seriously not find any genuine old-time musicians for this? Why was it necessary to hire commercial bluegrass artists and then have them play the yokel? The Tim Eriksen, Riley Baugus, Cassie Franklin, and shape-note stuff is a lot better.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 03:46 AM

Yeah, they should have dug some up.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM

I've seen (more than) enough of Nicole K

Is that possible?!

:-)

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

quoting: Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Slag - PM
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 02:40 AM

I read about half the book. It was cumbersome and tedious in places. I don't know if this was a first book but it seemed like it was. Sorry, I didn't have enough interest to find out. Believe it or not a very conservative preacher loaned it to me with his recommendation! I need to get it back to him.
Since the movie I doubt seriously that I will ever finish the book.

With regards to the movie it was a work of art in it's own right. I'd go **1/2 but not ***. The music was probably the best part. end quote

I agree. I got to about the same point in the book. Not only did I find it tedious, I also got tired of the repeated proselytizing about "fighting for slavery". Very few soldiers on either side fought because of the issue of slavery; I could go on for pages about the real causes but I'll leave that for another day and other boards.

quoting: Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Scoville - PM
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:42 AM

I just went back and listened to the soundtrack.

1) Who thought that "Sitting on Top of the World" was Civil War era?
end quote

It wasn't and anyone that knows anything about music of the era or even listens closely to the song can tell it doesn't "fit" the mid-19th century. I don't know why they put that in unless it was something Jack White convinced them to do.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: open mike
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

info about Tim Ericksen teaching shape note singing workshops
https://mail.prairienet.org/pipermail/ciecd-l/2005-November/000093.html
he has been musical consultant for several films...and works with
T-Bone Burnett.

he is also in a group called Cordelia's Dad
check out his web site
here
http://www.timeriksen.net
and here
http://www.timeriksen.net/news.html

see also T-Bone Burnett http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0122439/

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM

The musical references in the book are inaccurate, too. Not as inaccurate as "Sitting On Top of the World", but still off.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: GLoux
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:36 PM

From what I understand, it was Charles Frazier's first book and he won the National Book Award with it and got the movie deal. Not bad, IMHO.

I do share the same opinion with you about using bluegrass musicians and others outside of the old-time realm for the music, but I was real glad to see Riley and Dirk involved.

The musical references in the book are inaccurate, too.

Specifically, what musical references in the book are inaccurate?

-Greg

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Cruiser
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

The music is simply excellent. Gotta love that fiddle music!

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:30 AM

Damn, I went home and looked for it but my brother apparently took his copy with him when he moved out. I'll have to get back to you.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: bill kennedy
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:15 AM

to Kim C way back at the beginning of the thread - thanks for the suggestion of 'Black Flower' by Howard Bahr, what a great book and what a beautiful writer. I've now read all three of his novels, and I'd say the second, 'Year of Jubilo' did not really do it for me (did not at all understand what was happening at the end) but I also very much enjoyed his third and most recent work, 'The Judas Field' which I thought was equal to the 'Black Flower' in its power and content. I agree also that they might make good movies, can't believe someone is working on that already. Highly recommend that the rest of you read him, especially the first and third books, as I mentioned

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

I read the book and could never understand why it won the National Book Award.

          Thought the movie was better.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:52 PM

Movie is on TV today. Bought the book earlier.

Subject: RE: Cold Mountain
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:42 AM

I liked the movie and read the book. What bothered me about the book was its lack of quotation marks to denote dialogue. I'd be reading along and then realize the character was speaking, which can change how your perceive the action.

---

This thread has been hit heavily by spammers, and today's spammer had a great line that would work for a song "Keep your baby warm this winter" - though they were selling fuzzy sleepers, not sexy or sleepy cuddles, etc. :-) This thread is closed because of the spam, ask a moderator if you have something you want to add and it will be reopened. ---mudelf