BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:18 PM

I don't know if I have been insulted or complimented! Really - I can't figure it out.

I think I'll finish that bottle of Viognier, have a sleep myself and think about it in the morning:-)

Goodnight and see you tomorrow.

:DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM

Alright, alright, alright already!
Time Out!

T

... gotcha Pete!!! ;-)

Let's buckle down, and look at what we've got, should we?

I said: "your average Brit is as anti Irish as at least your average Unionist".
Tír Eoghain has qualified that by saying: "and the average Unionist is apathetic at the very least"

That, dear friends is the nub of the matter!

When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies...

Let's look at it another way...

Take the Nationality, 'British', for a start.
What is that?
English? Welsh? Scottish? 'Northern Irish' (God help us...)? Jamaican? Indian? Australian?

'British' transcends National Identities and boundaries, and by definition is Empirical, David, old sort.
It's pretty difficult to get past such an overblown sense of superiority, when you are part of the 'Irish Problem', for instance.

It's also pretty difficult to get past the Party Political System in England.
The Conservatives will go down the plughole still waving the Union Jack, as the European Economic Community sucks it in whole, eventually.
Labour has kicked out all it's militant voices, and now stay afloat on a river of Political Correctness and Governmental spin; spending most of their time these days (it seems to me) to be always steering clear of the rapids at the mouth of Shit Creek...

You talk of World Poverty and the like, and why aren't we more vocal in those fields, and I can't argue with you there, at all.
The North of Ireland is your own backyard, however and for years the Establishment wouldn't listen to our grieviences, wishing instead that we would just 'go away'
We then were beaten sensless because we 'would not go away'.
And when we couldn't take any more of this rejection, we came out of that corner and were forced, in turn, to kick a bit of butt, back.

Now a Brit would not accept that 'version' of it at all.
Wasn't put that way in the history books, Dave, was it?

It's also quite funny (in a peculiar sort of way), that those who refer to themselves as 'English', (as opposed to 'British') seem to be much more amenable on a personal level, and who tire of this 'John Bull' image that the Nation is wont to portray.

British people generally speaking therefore, are not sympathetic to the grieviences of the minority; they never have been historically, and their attiitude has not seemed to change one iota since the Good Friday Agreement
... Aaaand, if the best the average Brit can be is apathetic, and the worst is downright hostile, wherein lies the average, Dave?

If you look at the posters to the previous 'Irish Bashing' threads, and ask them to support your call for equality (.. and I have...), so far I can't see anyone who has done it.
I can see a lot of people who, when they do grace us with their presence, do it only to take a swipe at our strivations for better conditions and equality.
They never listened when we marched peacefully....

Any of the other posters here who indicated that they mailed their MP, have not historically posted anything Anti-Irish, that I have seen.

Now... perhaps not enough to make a quorum, but I was particularly referring to the average Brit here, contributing to these boards, and their anti-Irish bent.

You have more or less accepted that, I think.

But take the society as a whole.

Remember that Chicken Tikka Masala is not England's favourite dish because you're all fierce multi-culturalists.

It's because it takes 5 mins in the microwave... on full power...

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

Phew! I think I know what you are on about, Tiocfaidh. But it is late on a Saturday;-)

I have problems with When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies...

Ie - Not a clue what it means:-(

As to Now a Brit would not accept that 'version' of it at all.
Wasn't put that way in the history books, Dave, was it?

Again, wouldn't know. History books are so subjective don't you think? If I read one I have to read at least half a dozen. All disagree with each other. I'd rather listen to rumour...

Now. The crux as far as I see. I was particularly referring to the average Brit here, contributing to these boards, and their anti-Irish bent

There are indeed a number of people showing an anti-Irish bent here. I could probably name them all, it wouldn't take long. Which is my point all along. Because a very small percentage of the populus have had a go at the Irish is it right to say the average Brit is anti-Irish? I think not. But I am willing to accept that if a poll of British mudcatters shows an anti-Irish bent then I will accept that the average British 'catter is anti-Irish. In fact, I will start the poll myself. Whether people answer truthfuly or not is another matter;-)

Having been accused of defending the 'average Brit' once btw I feel I must put the record straight. I was born in England, love the place and will happily wave the flag of St George with the best of 'em. By ethnic origin however I am part Polish (now there IS an oppressed race!), part Russian, part Welsh and part English. My Grandparents were all first generation as listed. My father fled from Poland during WW2. I have no axe to grind whatsoever with people slagging of the British and will do so happily myself on most occasions. When they deserve it...

I do not think however that they deserve it in this case. The 'average Brit' on the Mudcat or anywhere else as far as I can see is no more anti-Irish than the average Pole, Russian or Welshman. There are a number of people here, as everywhere else, who will hold an anti-Irish viewpoint. I do not think that is a justification for saying that the average Brit is anti-Irish.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong and if anyone can provide me proof that an 'average' (by sensible standards) British contributor here or that an average Brit anywhere is anti-Irish I will hold up my hands in surrender. I don't think however that I will be suffering from shoulder strain in the near future:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:00 PM

Dave,

What do you think of Tiocfaidh's distinction between those that refer to themselves as English and those that refer to themselves as British? That seemed to be a key point of his.

As for history books being subjective, very true! When getting an advance degree in history, students have to take a course called "Historiography" which, in essence, is the history of history. It tries to show students how bias cannot be kept out of historical writings, even if one tries. Purpose being to make one really question the accuracy of what she reads and judge it accordingly.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:37 PM

I'm not sure, Epona. I cannot say I have ever noticed a difference between people calling themselves British or English. Out of interest I call myself English but it seems that in any official documention I do not have that option. I have to be British apparantly:-(

Likewise in any form in which I am asked to describe my ethnic origins there is no sectiion for 'mongrel';-) I once asked an interviewer why I needed to give my ethnic origins. They said it was because the authority who were interviewing me had a policy of non-discriminination. If they didn't discrininate, I asked, why did they need to know my ethnic origin...

I am glad to say I didn't get the job:-)

As to 'non-bias'. I realised at a very early age how easy bias was and how people accepted it with no thought. It was during a rail strike in the 1960's and the newsreader on the BBC commented that the rail network had been brought to a standstill by union members wanting a payrise. I wondered at the time why they didn't report that the standstill had been caused by management refusing to pay a decent wage! I know now of course that neither statement was correct. The rail network was at a standstill was the only unbiased interpretation anyone could make. And how boring would that look in the history books..?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM

Thanks, Dave.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:18 AM

"When the most 'generous' one can be on the grievience addressing within a minority community curve is concerned, is apathetic, Dave, you are starting a bit further up the downright biased end of that scale to find where our happy medium lies..."

=

"... if the best the average Brit can be is apathetic,..." (... about addressing the grieviences of the minority community "... and the worst is downright hostile, wherein lies the average, Dave?"

But are people going to admit that they are anti-Irish...?
Is that the kind of thing one will say of themselves.

If it's like the North, it'll manifest itself in the psyche first.
That's where the most damage is done...

T'will be an interesting thread you've created next-door, methinks ....

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,DtG - not signed on yet...
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:07 AM

Thanks, Tiocfaidh. I understand now. Rather than continue this tangenital (and possibly rather trivial) discussion on this important thread I have moved it elsewhere, as Tiocfaidh points out. I am sure you can spot it:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:28 AM

Slight thread drift...

Last Saturday the Royal Black Institution marched through a Nationalist area of Castlederg, in my own home county, to much approval from the local residents.

This is who they are: The 'Black Men'

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

ECCE: The splintering of the Unionist vote

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:13 PM

Wednesday. UDA announce weapons decommissioning complete.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8442683.stm
Friday. Police officer (catholic) terribly injured by Republican car bomb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8447829.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM

All this, and a sex and corruption scandal in Unionist politics.
But nobody has an opinion to express.
Times have changed indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM

They have indeed, Keith. Wonder what the bhoyos will do with their time now?

DeG