BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government

Subject: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:40 AM

Walter Cronkite, a revered icon of news with integrity, writes with telling impact on the subject of Lies and Secrets and their impact on a democratic society.

As an aside, those of you who have read the seminal study about Adult Children of Alcoholics may remember that one of the traits of people growing up in and with alcolholism is that they lie whether they need to or not.

Highly recommended.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM

So the Bush administration lies because they are all adult children of alcoholics?

Gee, and I thought they were lying in order to get away with ripping off and deceiving the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:52 AM

I don't think that's what I said, Nameless One, and it certainly is not what I meant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Well Amos, you are the one who brought up this "seminal study" about alcoholism (without naming it or linking to it I might add) in a post about Walter Cronkite's article, which never mentions any such thing.

I'm guessing the reason why Walter didn't mention alcoholism because to do so would be as disingenuously misleading as the people his article is about.

So please enlighten me if I am misinterpreting your post, Amos. Just what were you alluding to by mentioning alcoholism in the post about the Bush administration lying and being deceitful? What was your purpose in mentioning the alcoholism?

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

I just read that again and Amos, you are right. I'm sorry. I am an asshole,

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM

Nice try guest 10 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM. But posts like yours quickly demonstrate who the assholes are, and that they aren't the least bit sorry about being one.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:30 PM

Still waiting for your explanation about why you brought up the subject of alchoholism, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:33 PM

The Shrub, both in this federal post and as governor of Texas, has shown a chronic, consistent secretiveness, even in cases where the truth is already known or where letting the truth out will not harm him or his administration. It seems to be just part of his (and his collaborators') worldview, that the public doesn't deserve to know any more than Shrub's whim allows them.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM

Agree totally Dave. And I don't think that proclivity has anything to do with alcoholism.

If that were the case, all alcoholics would be as destructive as the Bush administration, and that is simply not a credible thesis to put forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

New book on the subject from someone who, because of prior experience, is in a position to know. Ping!

An exerpt for the book. Pong!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

I think Bush's past has left him brain damaged in ways that are similar to the recurring patterns idenitfied in the ACA studies. It happened to be on my mind as I had revisited the book for other reasons. Reading Cronkite's piece I was reminded of the interesting fact that ACA's lie with or without need -- which strikes me as something Bush does. Sorry for not making all this clear.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

Amos, you do realize the "study" you claim to be referring to (but have yet to cite for us) is making some pretty bizarre claims, if what you say is true.

I know many adult children of alcoholics who don't engage in the sort of behavior you are suggesting they are guilty of, simply by virtue of being descendants of alcoholics.

As far as I am aware, there is no study that has ever shown that anyone but those who have suffered fetal alcohol poisoning in utero, have brain damage as a result of their parent's drinking.

I also don't have a clue as to why you would make these sorts of ridiculous, hurtful claims about adult children of alcoholics, of whom there are probably more than a few in this forum.

And all just to make George Bush look bad? God, is there no depth of depravity the Bush haters won't stoop to? Don't you know you are just giving aid and comfort to the enemy--the Bush administration--when you say shit like this? You also shoot your credibility, as far as I'm concerned.

Jesus, the Cronkite article was great. Why not just post a link and discuss it, rather than let your irrational hatred of Bush result in these totally bizarre correlations that are obviously rooted in your own personal prejudices?

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:33 PM

Guest-

How about "Bush lies like an alcoholic?" He does, you know.

Hell, he also lies like a rug, as the American idiom goes. You want to point out his unrugly features?

"Lies" is the operative word.

You, sir, argue like a Republican.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM

I think that the people who are most prone to lie when there is no need to lie, are the ones who tell so many lies, it's hard for them to keep straight in their minds which things are lies and which aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:46 PM

The reference I have to hand is "Adult Children of Alcoholocs" by J.G. Woititz, 1983, Health Communications Inc., ISBN 0-932194-15-X.

See also this list of sites

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

And what exactly does the government lying to us have to do with alcoholic behavior? This is just totally, fucking bizarre.

All governments lie, whether Democrat or Republican. As someone on Washington Week pointed out last night, school boards and city councils never admit to their lies or apologize for them either.

So Amos, you are saying this aspect of human political behavior is rooted in alcoholism?

Gimme a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM

Troll alert

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM

Oh go away artbrooks. You are just pissed off at me from the other thread you just stomped out of when you didn't like me "provoking arguments" in a political argument thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:13 PM

Thy knickers are twisted, oh Nameless One!!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM

I happen to be the adult child of two alcoholics, may they rest in peace. So I found the category of interest, and as for my casting aspersions, I am merely quoting Doctor Whoozy, who wrote the book; although I will say I have found it to be true, personally. I grew up with a very low respect for truth in its own right, and have learned to speak sooth through a number of hard lessons. Bush strikes me as the kind of "automatic liar" I have been at times in the past, except that I have climbed out of it and I do not believe he has.

As for anyone else, if the shoe fits,jolly good, and if not, hellwiddit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM

And this has what to do with Walter Cronkite's article exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:54 PM

Oh, piss off, and look up the expression "as an aside".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

You sure don't like held to your word Amos. Sure you're cured?

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

Bill Moyers, Thursday 08 April 2004:

"He (Bush) seems not to realize how his credibility has been shredded by all the false and misleading reasons put forth to justify invading Iraq; Lyndon Johnson never recovered from using the dubious events at the Gulf of Tonkin as an excuse to go to war in Vietnam, and even if Mr. Bush wins reelection this November, he, too, will eventually be dragged down by the powerful undertow that inevitably accompanies public deception.

"The public will grow intolerant of partisan predators and crony capitalists indulging in a frenzy of feeding at the troughs in Baghdad and Washington.

"And there will come a time when the president will have no one to rely on except his most rabid allies in the right wing media; he will discover too late that you cannot win the hearts and minds of the public at large in a nation polarized and pulverized by endless propaganda at odds with reality."

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 06:45 PM

Amos, there is an interesting article on CNN.com right now. Apparently, the August 6, 2001 intelligence briefing that supposedly gave advance warning of the 9/11 attacks has been declassified, but "portions of the intelligence report dealing with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network and dated August 6, 2001, have been redacted for national security reasons, the White House said." The question that comes immediately to everyone's mind will undoubtedly be "national security or Mr. Bush's and Ms. Rice's security?" They still can't understand that full disclosure, even if that requires giving away 3-year-old secrets, is the only way they are going to ever get out of the hole they are digging themselves. Full story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 07:18 PM

"you are saying this aspect of human political behavior is rooted in alcoholism?"

No, alcoholism is rooted in this aspect of human political behavior, at least partly. You have it backwards.

The pathological liar lies to himself. Alcoholics are difficult to treat because they don't admit they're addicted; they lie to themselves. "I can quit any time," "Drinking isn't the problem, it's the solution." "And I don't drink all that much anyway," "Who wouldn't drink? He/she/they drove me to it."

And this is a sidetrack; the point is that Bush lies and conceals and it kills people, among other things. Whether the cause of his lying is alcoholism or just shit-headedness is interesting, but beside the point.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM

One of my philosophy professors way back said that even if they don't have any formal knowledge of philosopy, people are basically either Platonic or Aristotilian. It's a fundamental choice, more often than not made unconsciously, but supported by a whole string of assumptions, and it can tell you a lot about where a given individual is coming from.

Interesting article

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

OK, I'll finally admit it! I'm an alcoholic and any time I see alcoholics being blamed I have to go have a few drinks and then I start to rant on the internet because noone else will pay attention to me and I want to show everbody how smart I am and I always come off looking like a real asshole and all you guys are right and I love you all

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:58 AM

Guest:

You're arguing like a Republican again; attacking something that ain't there.

Nobody said that alcoholics are to blame for being liars; I said lying was to blame for some of the problems of alcoholics.

Can you say "straw man?"

I do agree with part of your post, though.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 02:35 AM

Guest,

Thaks for the honest surge of hard but necessary confront. We love you too, basically.

If we stick to basics, therefore, we;ll be jes' fine.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 02:38 AM

Sorry, Guest.

I thought you were being sarcastic.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Deceit and Secrecy in Government
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 06:32 PM

In other news that seems to fit under this thread title:



Mining for kids: Children can't "opt out" of Pentagon recruitment
database
By Kathryn Casa | Vermont Guardian

Parents cannot remove their children's names from a Pentagon database
that includes highly personal information used to attract military
recruits, the Vermont Guardian has learned.

The Pentagon has spent more than $70.5 million on market research,
national advertising, website development, and management of the
Joint Advertising Market Research and Studies (JAMRS) database — a
storehouse of questionable legality that includes the names and
personal details of more than 30 million U.S. children and young
people between the ages of 16 and 23.

The database is separate from information collected from schools that
receive federal education money. The No Child Left Behind Act
requires schools to report the names, addresses, and phone numbers of
secondary school students to recruiters, but the law also specifies
that parents or guardians may write a letter to the school asking
that their children's names not be released.

However, many parents have reported being surprised that their
children are contacted anyway, according to a San Francisco-based
coalition called Leave My Child Alone (LMCA).

"We hear from a lot of parents who have often felt quite isolated
about it all and haven't been aware that this is happening all over
the country," said the group's spokeswoman, Felicity Crush.

Parents must contact the Pentagon directly to ask that their
children's information not be released to recruiters, but the data is
not removed from the JAMRS database, according to Lt. Col. Ellen
Krenke, a Pentagon spokeswoman.

Instead, the information is moved to a suppression file, where it is
continuously updated with new data from private and government
sources and still made available to recruiters, Krenke said. It's
necessary to keep the information in the suppression file so the
Pentagon can make sure it's not being released, she said.

Krenke said the database is compiled using information from state
motor vehicles departments, the Selective Service, and data-mining
firms that collect and organize information from private companies.
In addition to names, addresses, Social Security numbers, and phone
numbers, the database may include cell phone numbers, e-mail
addresses, grade-point averages, ethnicity, and subjects of interest.