BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 10:13 AM

My exact sentiments, GUEST999...

Kids *can* handle the truth... Okay, they might nor internalize information emotionally until they have further developed emotionally but once that occurs it's better for them as citizens of the world to, at the very least, have a knowledge base that is grounded in factual realities rather that a bunch of mythology that has been sanitized so that the so-called "adults" can sleep better at night...

And the problem gets worse becuase these adults that have been spoonfed mythology grow up to be, ahhhhh, voters!!! And that converts to garbage in - garbage out... The US Congress is a case in point...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:05 AM

"Would you like me to post a bibliography of factual works on TJ?"


                The facts have been presented, Greg. If you disagree with them go into Wikipedia and amend them. The historians who put them there might not agree, and if not, they will change them back. The point has been sufficiently made, however, that things like that are complicated, and cannot be presented to young children with a "see Dick run," reading ablitiy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:09 AM

Sorry, Greg, as has happened before, you are the one who oversimplifies, with yet another ex cathedra statement.

Jefferson did in fact have huge debts at his death, and many of his slaves were sold as a result.

Would you like an exact citation--or is this yet another sinking ship to whose mast you have lashed yourself?

You're great at ridiculing sources you don't like;   not quite so good at actually providing evidence the source is worthless.   All you have to do is consider Wikipedia just one source and see if there is confirmation elsewhere.   Doesn't seem like an unreasonable request--if you are capable of doing a modicum of research.    But it seems it might be a problem for you.

The best things in life don't change, they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:11 AM

Hell has frozen over.   I applaud you, Riginslinger (though admittedly only for that last post). Well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:17 PM

The facts have been presented, Greg.

No facts, Rig- you cut and pasted some crap from a blog. No point my correcting Blog-O-Pedia, 'cause any asshole can come along after me and post any sort of outrageous shit they want- life's too short to get into a pissing contest with an anonymous skunk (Or with the the Simple Seeker After Hubris).

Tell ya what: for one example of many pick up a copy of Annette Gordon-Reed's The Hemingses of Monticello 2008 - no, no, don't read the book! - & see the Bibliography pages 737 thru 753 for some factual works. Try reading a few.

And no, I'm not going to do your homework for you- crib off someone else's paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:21 PM

You're ... not quite so good at actually providing evidence the source is worthless.

Oh Great and Omniscient Simple Seeker After Truth:

1. See sources provided to Rig, above.

2. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 02:09 PM

Ya' all arguing over stupid stuff... Tom Jefferson was one of thousands of slave owners... That is the story here... The entire slave trade from Africa to the docks of Charleston, S.C. or Alexandria, Va. is the story here... The fact that families were broken apart and people kidnapped and sold is the story here... The fact that the South was willing to call it quits to protect these practices in the story here... Jim Crow is the story here... The Greensboro Massacure is the story here... The Civil Rights movement is the story here... The fact that descendents of slaves are still housing in little reservations (housing projects) within oor country is the stroy here... Affirmative Action is the story here... I mean, this is waht ecuated people should know about...

Arguing over one particualr slave owner as if winning that angels-on-the-end-of-a-pin is the real story is stupid and diversionary...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 10 - 02:28 PM

That really wasn't the argument, Bobert. The discussion was hi-jacked. What we started out to determine was how would this material be presented to children in such a way as to allow them to see the entire complex narrative.

                  The way it is now, you have a black side and a white side--at least you had a black side and a white side--now, do to the realities of sucking up to big business, you have multiple sides and the situation is even more confusing.

                  What you are describing above seems to be one piece of it all. If you want to talk about Affirmative Action, for instance, it seems to me you would have to consider the people who have been damaged by Affirmative Action.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 04:47 PM

Ain't arguing over nothin', Bobert- I just wanted to correct the mis-statements that 1. Jefferson never freed any of his slaves and 2. that he unilaterally couldn't free any slaves because they were "were encumbered by notes and mortgages."

Then, of course, the All-Knowing Simple Seeker had to put his oar in, as usual, & it went down-hill from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 05:22 PM

P.S.-

Since virtually all secondary school teachers (and a goodly percentage of primary school teachers) won't accept Blog-O-Pedia as a reference for research papers and the like, I don't see why my standards should be any lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 08:16 PM

Don't make no difference... Ths list of things that have occured in our American history should be taught the way they occured...

I don't mean to be jumpin' on anyone in particular here... I know how some folks try to hyjack threads and others think that they gotta defend their turf and, and...

Just tell the children the truth... There's a lot of it that ain't being told...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:58 AM

And it won't as long as the text books have to pass muster in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, Texas will be one of the last states to fall into line... I mean, there was a time when even stuff like recyclin' was considered some commie plot... Now, I'd bet that they even recycle in Texas... Someone has to begin and others will follow...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:11 PM

Gee, Greg, it seems like that ship of yours is having real problems. You might not want to tie yourself quite so tightly to the mast--and you must be a bit waterlogged by now, considering all the other ships you've gone down with.

Nobody ever said Jefferson freed no slaves.   But the overwhelming majority were sold at auction after his death--as Rig and I have said.

Joseph Ellis, American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson:

p 289:

"Although his fear of living too long proved justified, his providential death on July 4, 1826, spared him the ultimate tragedy of watching all his worldly possessions, including '130 valuable negroes' sold to the highest bidders."

As they say, facts are stubborn things.

But just imagine, all you'd have to do is think before hitting "send" and you'd avoid a lot of absurd embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 10 - 12:55 AM

What??..Not again?? You mean they're not letting people learn about American history??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:48 AM

Those who don't know history tend to repeat it... (Voltaire)...

It isn't about Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves... It's about our nation's courage to allow the evolution of mankind in a more humane and contemporay manner...

Those who wnat to define today's problems/issues by going back a couple hundred years and trying to use early 1800's realities to 2010 are missing the entire point... This isn't the early 1800's...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 May 10 - 10:12 AM

That's a good point, Bobert. The reverse is true as well. It's hard to teach history without having students applying today's standards to yesterday's situations. Particularly with very young children.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 10 - 10:27 AM

1. Consider, oh Simple Seeker, the statement by Rig, written in plain English:
George Washington freed his slaves, but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves.

[Emphasis mine, for your convenience.

2.And consider, oh Omniscient One, your statement:
...the overwhelming majority [of slaves] were sold at auction after his death--as Rig and I have said.

Which I never took issue with or contradicted.

3. Pray tell me, oh Illustrious and Indefatigable Seeker of Truth, have you read any recent Jefferson scholarship published in the 12 years since Ellis' book?

4. [ Who's embarrassed now? ]

5. And finally: Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:31 AM

After listening to an NPR program on the radio yesterday, it has become obvious that the only way to get to the bottom of this ethnic studies issue is for the public schools to actively engage in the task of debunking the myth of Aztlan.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:39 AM

Well, Rigs.... Yeah, like I said, ya' gotta know history but you don't have to solve yer current problems by trying to put yerself in an 1800's mindset to do so... The 1800s mindset was purdy messed up on a lot of levels...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:48 AM

We could agree on that, but the reality that those folks faced was from a different point of view. That would be hard to explain to young children, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 02:14 PM

Back to Arizona... Stanley Fish in the NY Times has an interesting perspective... I generally have little sympathy for his views, but I'll give him "interesting", at least, on this one:

--

The loud debate over the recently passed Arizona House Bill 2281, which bans from the public schools ethnic studies courses that promote race consciousness, is a clash between two bad paradigms.

The first paradigm is embedded in and configures the bill's targeted program, the Mexican American Studies Department of the Tucson Unified School District, which, its Web site tells us, adheres to the Social Justice Education Project model. That model includes "a counter-hegemonic curriculum" and "a pedagogy based on the theories of Paulo Freire." Freire, a Brazilian educator, is the author of the widely influential book "Pedagogy of the Oppressed."
...
To say that this view of education is political is to understate the point, although that descriptive will not be heard by its adherents as a criticism. The Social Justice Education Project means what its title says: students are to be brought to see what the prevailing orthodoxy labors to occlude so that they can join the effort to topple it. To this end the Department of Mexican American Studies (I quote again from its Web site) pledges to "work toward the invoking of a critical consciousness within each and every student" and "promote and advocate for social and educational transformation."
...
This is one case, however, where the remedy is worse than the disease, or rather is a form of it. Rather than removing politics from the classroom, House Bill 2281 mandates the politics of its authors, who, in the bill's declaration of policy, set themselves up as educational philosophers and public moralists, and even, given the magisterial tone, as gods: "The Legislature finds and declares that public school pupils should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or other classes of people." The declaration tendentiously, and without support either of argument or evidence, affirms a relationship between critically questioning the ideology of individual rights — and make no mistake, it is an ideology — and the production of racism and hatred.
...
The moral is simple: you don't cure (what I consider) the virus of a politicized classroom by politicizing it in a different direction, even if that direction corresponds to the notions of civic virtue that animate much of our national rhetoric. The political scientist James Bernard Murphy has been arguing for years that teaching civic virtue is not an appropriate academic activity, both because schools are not equipped to do it and because the effort undermines the true function of education — "enthusiasm for the pursuit of knowledge" — and even corrupts it. Teaching students either to love or criticize their nation, Murphy wrote in The Times in 2002, "has all too often prompted textbook authors and teachers to falsify, distort and sanitize history and social studies."

---

~ Becky in Long Beach (this week)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 May 10 - 04:02 PM

"The moral is simple: you don't cure (what I consider) the virus of a politicized classroom by politicizing it in a different direction,..."

             He's right, you don't. And that is what the Arizona law says it is trying not to do.

             The whole thing seems to suggest that trying to teach ethnic studies is polarizing in and of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 10 - 05:07 PM

Heck, Rigs... Trying to teach a mindset is almost impossible... Just give the kids the facts and let 'um figure the rest out...

As for ethnic studies??? Until we make a concerted effort to tell the truth then think of ethnic studies as a gap filler... The more we understand the roles that folks, other than whites, have played in our history the greater perspective we have on how best to deal with the many issues that confront us...

Einstien said that a problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it... There's alot to that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 20 May 10 - 08:50 AM

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA

   Amherst Times ^ | 15 April 2006 | RICHARD D. LAMM

   Posted on 05/10/2006 3:50:05 PM PDT by neverdem

   Richard D. Lamm was a Democrat who served as governor of Colorado for twelve years from 1975 to 1987.

   "This is a speech I gave in Washington D.C. It was a 5 minute speech, and I am amazed and gratified it has received so much coverage."


I HAVE A SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. IF YOU BELIEVE, AS MANY DO, THAT AMERICA IS TOO SMUG, TOO WHITE BREAD, TOO SELF-SATISFIED, TOO RICH, LETS DESTROY AMERICA. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DO. HISTORY SHOWS THAT NATIONS ARE MORE FRAGILE THAN THEIR CITIZENS THINK. NO NATION IN HISTORY HAS SURVIVED THE RAVAGES OF TIME. ARNOLD TOYNBEE OBSERVED THAT ALL GREAT CIVILIZATIONS RISE AND THEY ALL FALL, AND THAT "AN AUTOPSY OF HISTORY WOULD SHOW THAT ALL GREAT NATIONS COMMIT SUICIDE." HERE IS MY PLAN:

I. WE MUST FIRST MAKE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY. HISTORY SHOWS, IN MY OPINION, THAT NO NATION CAN SURVIVE THE TENSION, CONFLICT, AND ANTAGONISM OF TWO COMPETING LANGUAGES AND CULTURES. IT IS A BLESSING FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO BE BILINGUAL; IT IS A CURSE FOR A SOCIETY TO BE BILINGUAL. ONE SCHOLAR, SEYMOUR MARTIN LIPSET, PUT IT THIS WAY:

THE HISTORIES OF BILINGUAL AND BICULTURAL SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT ASSIMILATE ARE HISTORIES OF TURMOIL, TENSION, AND TRAGEDY. CANADA, BELGIUM, MALAYSIA, LEBANON-ALL FACE CRISES OF NATIONAL EXISTENCE IN WHICH MINORITIES PRESS FOR AUTONOMY, IF NOT INDEPENDENCE. PAKISTAN AND CYPRUS HAVE DIVIDED. NIGERIA SUPPRESSED AN ETHNIC REBELLION. FRANCE FACES DIFFICULTIES WITH ITS BASQUES, BRETONS, AND CORSICANS.

II. I WOULD THEN INVENT "MULTICULTURALISM" AND ENCOURAGE IMMIGRANTS TO MAINTAIN THEIR OWN CULTURE. I WOULD MAKE IT AN ARTICLE OF BELIEF THAT ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL: THAT THERE ARE NO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES THAT ARE IMPORTANT. I WOULD DECLARE IT AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE BLACK AND HISPANIC DROPOUT RATE IS ONLY DUE TO PREJUDICE AND DISCRIMINATION BY THE MAJORITY. EVERY OTHER EXPLANATION IS OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

III. WE CAN MAKE THE UNITED STATES A "HISPANIC QUEBEC" WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. THE KEY IS TO CELEBRATE DIVERSITY RATHER THAN UNITY. AS BENJAMIN SCHWARZ SAID IN THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY RECENTLY:

...THE APPARENT SUCCESS OF OUR OWN MULTIETHNIC AND MULTICULTURAL EXPERIMENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED NOT BY TOLERANCE BUT BY HEGEMONY. WITHOUT THE DOMINANCE THAT ONCE DICTATED ETHNOCENTRICALLY, AND WHAT IT MEANT TO BE AN AMERICAN, WE ARE LEFT WITH ONLY TOLERANCE AND PLURALISM TO HOLD US TOGETHER.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL IMMIGRANTS TO KEEP THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND CULTURE. I WOULD REPLACE THE MELTING POT METAPHOR WITH A SALAD BOWL METAPHOR. IT IS IMPORTANT TO INSURE THAT WE HAVE VARIOUS CULTURAL SUB-GROUPS LIVING IN AMERICA REINFORCING THEIR DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN AMERICANS, EMPHASIZING THEIR SIMILARITIES.

IV. HAVING DONE ALL THIS, I WOULD MAKE OUR FASTEST GROWING DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP THE LEAST EDUCATED - I WOULD ADD A SECOND UNDERCLASS, UNASSIMILATED, UNDEREDUCATED, AND ANTAGONISTIC TO OUR POPULATION. I WOULD HAVE THIS SECOND UNDERCLASS HAVE A 50% DROP OUT RATE FROM SCHOOL.

V. I WOULD THEN GET THE BIG FOUNDATIONS AND BIG BUSINESS TO GIVE THESE EFFORTS LOTS OF MONEY. I WOULD INVEST IN ETHNIC IDENTITY, AND I WOULD ESTABLISH THE CULT OF VICTIMOLOGY. I WOULD GET ALL MINORITIES TO THINK THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS WAS ALL THE FAULT OF THE MAJORITY - I WOULD START A GRIEVANCE INDUSTRY BLAMING ALL MINORITY FAILURE ON THE MAJORITY POPULATION.

VI. I WOULD ESTABLISH DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND PROMOTE DIVIDED LOYALTIES. I WOULD "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY." "DIVERSITY" IS A WONDERFULLY SEDUCTIVE WORD. IT STRESSES DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN COMMONALITIES. DIVERSE PEOPLE WORLDWIDE ARE MOSTLY ENGAGED IN HATING EACH OTHER-THAT IS, WHEN THEY ARE NOT KILLING EACH OTHER. A DIVERSE," PEACEFUL, OR STABLE SOCIETY IS AGAINST MOST HISTORICAL PRECEDENT. PEOPLE UNDERVALUE THE UNITY IT TAKES TO KEEP A NATION TOGETHER, AND WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MYOPIA. LOOK AT THE ANCIENT GREEKS. DORF'S WORLD HISTORY TELLS US:

THE GREEKS BELIEVED THAT THEY BELONGED TO THE SAME RACE; THEY POSSESSED A COMMON LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE; AND THEY WORSHIPED THE SAME GODS. ALL GREECE TOOK PART IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN HONOR OF ZEUS AND ALL GREEKS VENERATED THE SHRINE OF APOLLO AT DELPHI. A COMMON ENEMY PERSIA THREATENED THEIR LIBERTY. YET, ALL OF THESE BONDS TOGETHER WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME TWO FACTORS . . . (LOCAL PATRIOTISM AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONDITIONS THAT NURTURED POLITICAL DIVISIONS . . .) IF WE CAN PUT THE EMPHASIS ON THE "PLURIBUS," INSTEAD OF THE "UNUM," WE CAN BALKANIZE AMERICA AS SURELY AS KOSOVO.

VII. THEN I WOULD PLACE ALL THESE SUBJECTS OFF LIMITS - MAKE IT TABOO TO TALK ABOUT. I WOULD FIND A WORD SIMILAR TO "HERETIC" IN THE 16TH CENTURY - THAT STOPPED DISCUSSION AND PARALYZED THINKING. WORDS LIKE "RACIST", "XENOPHOBE" THAT HALTS ARGUMENT AND CONVERSATION.

HAVING MADE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY, HAVING ESTABLISHED MULTICULTURALISM, HAVING THE LARGE FOUNDATIONS FUND THE DOCTRINE OF "VICTIMOLOGY", I WOULD NEXT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. I WOULD DEVELOP A MANTRA - "THAT BECAUSE IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR AMERICA, IT MUST ALWAYS BE GOOD." I WOULD MAKE EVERY INDIVIDUAL IMMIGRANT SYMPATRIC AND IGNORE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT.

VIII. LASTLY, I WOULD CENSOR VICTOR DAVIS HANSON'S BOOK MEXIFORNIA — THIS BOOK IS DANGEROUS — IT EXPOSES MY PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. SO PLEASE, PLEASE — IF YOU FEEL THAT AMERICA DESERVES TO BE DESTROYED — PLEASE, PLEASE — DON'T BUY THIS BOOK! THIS GUY IS ON TO MY PLAN.

"THE SMART WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE PASSIVE AND OBEDIENT IS TO STRICTLY LIMIT THE SPECTRUM OF ACCEPTABLE OPINION, BUT ALLOW VERY LIVELY DEBATE WITHIN THAT SPECTRUM." — NOAM CHOMSKY, AMERICAN LINGUIST AND US MEDIA AND FOREIGN POLICY CRITIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 09:08 AM

"Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves.":   Rig, quoting the beloved Wikipedia.

Gee, Greg, how many barnacles are on that sunken ship of yours?   Can't possibly be as many as you yourself are festooned with. Your postings must be the all-time worst graveyard for ships.

As as I've said, all you'd have to do to avoid further embarrassment is actually to think before hitting "send". Seems a reasonable request.

As I've also noted elsewhere,, you must be the only Mudcatter who's never made a mistake.   I can't imagine any other reason why you've never admitted an error.   Couldn't possibly be a tender ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 09:17 AM

Teaching history will be a problem if Arizona tries to enforce this law.    I understand that about 30% of Arizona's current population is of Hispanic background.    When it comes time to talk about the Mexican War, it sounds like they'll have to say that what is now Arizona was formerly part of, say, the Chinese empire.

Otherwise they may be violating this new law by raising resentment in children of Hispanic descent.

Too bad about actual facts, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:35 AM

"Heck, Rigs... Trying to teach a mindset is almost impossible... Just give the kids the facts and let 'um figure the rest out..."


            Geat! If we'er going to teach facts we'd have to leave the myth of Aztlan out of it. Without Aztlan, the rest is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 10 - 01:45 PM

"Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves.":   Rig, quoting the beloved Wikipedia.

1.Indeed he did, oh All-Knowing and All-Seeing One! but AFTER I called him to task.

2. Of course, chronology and facts aren't your long suit, are they?

3. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 10 - 07:44 PM

Of course, logic is always helpful too, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 10 - 07:54 PM

pdq,

Very interesting manifesto... And further proof that in this world there are more horses asses than there are horses...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:04 PM

Gee, Greg, hope you feel better soon.   So sorry life is treating you so badly. I'm sure it has nothing to do with your own attitude.

You might be interested to know that people are in fact allowed to change their attitudes.   Just as they can revise what they say.

If their egos will let them.   

Just a friendly reminder.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:44 AM

"Richard D. Lamm was a Democrat who served as governor of Colorado for twelve years from 1975 to 1987."

           &nbs p;    Yes, pdq, I've often lamented over the 1996 election. If only Ross Perot could have contained his ego and had let Richard Lamm run for president as his party's candidate, the immigration disaster would have come up then.
           &nbs p;    People are just now beginning to figure out what's happened to them because the mainstream media didn't want to talk about it. Just this month there's a blurb in Harper's about how much it would cost to round up all the illegals and ship them out of the country. It's just simply childish they way they treat this problem, but I don't think they can sweep it under the rug any longer.

(Riginslinger)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 08:36 AM

Oh Simple Seeker of Truth:

MY attitude?

1.ROFLMAO

2. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 08:43 AM

7:44 was me. I dropped my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:46 PM

I haven't read this whole thread but I scanned it and Spaw, I found your post of May 14 at 01:06 PM interesting. You wrote, "Were I teaching I would suggest that we are possibly in need of another revolution. So would many of our "founding fathers" who never expected the Constitution to be a document for the ages and that it would maended (I think you probably meant to say "be amended") when it could be and rewritten when it should be to change with the times."

This statement calls for some "mindreading" of the founding fathers who are no longer with us. Therefore, IMO, it becomes opinion. I would argue that if the founders intended that the Constitution be updated as time goes by, they would have written that into the Constitution. I don't believe they did.

Tongue firmly planted in cheek, in the event that a Revolution were to take place, I cannot imagine for a minute that the liberal thinkers would come out on top. Winning would require that they bear arms and actually hurt and kill people. Who is opposed to bearing arms? Who consistently opposes wars? Why, liberal thinkers of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:50 PM

They made provisions for the constitution to be amended, which is why the 14th amendment needs to be amended now to eliminate "birthright citizenship."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 03:07 PM

As to the law itself, The Arizona Republic urged the governor NOT to sign the Bill into law. That did not mean, however, that the newspaper supported the program. Yesterday the editorial in that newspaper had the following headline: "LAW IS PROBLEM BUT SO IS MESSAGE OF THESE CLASSES." In the body of the editorial the following question is posed: Would I let my child take part in a public-school program that: Is directed by someone who declares, flat out: "Our teachers are left-leaning. They are progressives. They're going to have things (in the classrooms) that conservatives are not going to like.:" - Dr. Augustine Romero, Feb. 1, 2008.

+ Originally was exsposed for it's political activism not by Republican state schools Superintendent Tom HOrfen, but by two TUSD theachers, both Hispanic. Both of whom subsequently have been vidiously attacked by the ethnic-studies radicals as ...racists.

+Featured at its annual institute for Transformative Education summer seminar for district teachers, students and other speakers who are avowed Marxists including Dr. Peter McLaren of UCLA, who in his video taped keynote address in 2008 shared such nuggests with TUSD teachers and students as these:
"The real god of the U.S. is violence; its creed being violence saves.'"
"Revolutionary violence can be justified."
"In a capitalist societgy, your're either part of the capitalist class or part of the working class."

+ Is committed to the instructional dogma of South American Marxist education theoretician Paolo Friere, who's book "Pedagogy of the Opperessed" explicitly urges recruiting students to the communist revolution.

+ Teaches students to defy their own (remarkably timid) school officials to demonstrate against Horne; ther demonstration last week included street theater in which a student playing "Horne" was left lying "dead" on the grass. At last we see some hints of what truly goes on in TUSD's ethnic-sstudies classrooms.

"Is this what the apologists for TUSD's ethnic-studies program really wish for these Arizona students? Would they eally tolerate such activism if these were their children being manipulated? Not likely.

End of editorial.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 03:11 PM

True, Rig, they did make it possible for the Constitution to be amended, but I seriously doubt they had in mind modernizing it to fit the political philosophy of any one political party, liberal or conservative.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:24 PM

No, Doug, I don't think they did either. Neither do I think they intended amendments to remain unchanged which allow for a wholesale invasion of the United States by a foreign enemy, but that's what has been happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 05:50 PM

Rig: I agree.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:37 PM

Arizonians seem to have no problem allowing children take part in public-school programs that:

1. indoctrinate them with fundamentalist christian[sic]nonsense

2. teach that the world is less than 6,000 years old

3. mis-represent the actual role the U.S. has played vis a vis other countries in this hemisphere and how it has historically treated segments of its own population.

4. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:42 PM

...but I seriously doubt they had in mind modernizing [the constitution ] to fit the political philosophy ...

That's the problem wit presentism and the blinkered view it engenders.

The founding mothers and fathers seemed to have no problem "modernizing" the dominant political milieu of preceeding several milennia in order to create their document in the first place, and in so doing, shaping it to their OWN political philosophy.

Modern right-wing mewling notwithstanding...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 10 - 09:27 PM

OK, Greg: Rig did say Jefferson did not free his slaves.

So you are right on that. Congratulations to you. Feel free to jump around yelling: "I'm right. Ron Davies admits it." (But please try not to fall.   We don't want you to hurt yourself.)

And you also get a big gold star.


Then he revised his view, based on what he had read on Wiki--which is in fact accurate on this point--as I have pointed out.

Adults are allowed to revise their views.   Perhaps such an idea doesn't occur to you.

However, it's called learning. At some point you might want to look into it.   After all, if Rig can do it, it sounds like it might also be possible for you. Just another helpful suggestion.

It also may stop you from getting quite so waterlogged.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 09:34 PM

"1. indoctrinate them with fundamentalist christian[sic]nonsense..."
"2. teach that the world is less than 6,000 years old..."

             Do they do this in public schools in Arizona? I don't know; I'm just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:50 AM

Since Greg F. is the originator of this hypothonise, I cannot comment, even though I live in Arizona.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:18 AM

Then he revised his view, based on what he had read on Wiki--which is in fact accurate on this point...[that, per "Blog-O-Pedia: Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves (two, his alleged mixed-race sons)]

No, Simple Seeker, it is not in fact accurate, it is bullshit.

Jefferson freed ten slaves, of which 4 were his children.

Try again; it's called learning. At some point you might want to look into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:37 AM

Do they do this in public schools in Arizona? I don't know; I'm just asking.

Hint: do a search for "Arizona schools" and "creationism" and/or "intelligent design".

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:45 AM

Their seems to be at least two problems here regarding the Founding Fathers and the problems of today...

1. Their mindset was much different from ours... Had they envisoned kids carryin; assault rifles into schools they certainly would have made it clearer that "gunownershipt" was realted to the right to maintain a militia... I think the languge isn't all that muddy but I'm sure that the FFs would have made it so clear that even a "caveman" would understand it... Yes, they also held slaves... That fact, in itself, suggests that they had a much different cultural mindset than most folks have today...

2. Their thinking that the Constitution would be a living document that coule easilly be ammended to fit the times was wrong... Yes, it did work for awhile but it no longer works... It is impossible to ammend the constitution anymore... There falt out will be no more ammendments... The political climate is too poisoned for that to occur and people on the right have played games with the process with flivelous pieces of crap, such as flag burning, to reduce the process to, at best, a joke...

So that is the current situation and looking to the FFs, as if they would be able to help us if they were to come back to life with their 1700's mindsets, is an exercise in futility...

Me thinks that unless the right wing loosens up a little that they willl, in theri pure interests in reagining power and $$$$, will destroy the country from their stranglehold using severaly dumbed down Epsilons as their swords and shields...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:16 AM

Back to Wikipedia for this:

The Twenty-seventh Amendment (Amendment XXVII) prohibits any law that increases or decreases the salary of members of the Congress from taking effect, until the start of the next set of terms of office for Representatives. It is the most recent amendment to the United States Constitution, having been ratified in 1992, more than 202 years after its initial submission in 1789.


It seems to me that the 1965 immigration act is the thing that started the country down the lack-of-cooperation road that we find ourselves on now.