BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 02:40 PM

"..of which 4 were his children".   Unproven.

Interesting that you also don't bother to provide a direct quote for your assertion about 10 slaves. It may be 5, it may be 10--certainly was not many.    If it is 10, we need a bit more than your bald statement, Professor.

By the way, just a book is not sufficient.   We need direct quotes.

Other people provide exact quotes, with source.   Somehow you can't manage this. It does tend to undercut your wonderfully valuable contributions, just a bit. But we need these so we can evaluate how reliable your sources are.   I'm sure you won't mind.

So sorry to break the news to you-- as of now your credibility is somewhat below zero---even below Wikipedia. Pobrecito.



Added to which, the main point is that he did not in fact free most of his slaves--they were sold at auction after his death.

Care to dispute that point?




And is certainly remarkable that you insist on quibbling over 5 or 10---neglecting the main point, which was that despite his fine words about equality, he could not put them into practice in his own life, since it would dramatically lessen his standard of living, and due to other financial problems.   Due to his financial straits, he could not even do what Washington did in his will.

And of course the whole topic, which you only belabored in order to put Rig down, has precious little-- to say the least--to do with the thread topic.

Not that I would want to assert that it does, on the other hand, have a huge amount to do with your fragile ego.   I can't say that.

But I do hope you didn't hurt yourself jumping around in triumph.    That would be a true shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 02:58 PM

Bobert has it right on the poisoned political climate--and the result that there will be no more amendments for the foreseeable future.

Most of those proposed don't deserve to see the light of day anyway--so that would be an example of a good justification for the difficulty of the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 03:00 PM

Certainly the idea of taking away birthright citizenship is a certified crackpot notion--as I've pointed out elsewhere, take a look at France recently for a likely outcome of such a move.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:04 PM

It seems to me that the 1965 immigration act is the thing that started the country down the lack-of-cooperation road that we find ourselves on now.

I don't see it. You're trying to tie it back to immigration because that's your pet issue.

The lack of cooperation we see now started with Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:13 PM

I agree, mouse, that the most immediate problem--in fact a number of problems--had to do with a ground game that was put into play while Reagan was in office.

             The problems with the 1965 immigration laws have to do with "family reunification," and what the US will accept as a definition of "refugee."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:21 PM

Our problems aren't the result of anyone (legal or not) that comprise the working class... Our problems are the result of allowing corporations to police themselves... Yeah, mouse is entirely correct... You can trace this to Reagan and deregulation...

(But, Boberdz, the government is bad, bad, bad...)

Oh??? Until ***you*** need it then it's yer best friend...

True story: I know the family of this man here in the "holler" who had a stroke 4 months ago... I know these people to be some of the most voacl people in denoucing the government... They are Rush Limbaugh listeners... So when this man's 90 days of long term care were up and the long term care facility was asking that this man use his savings to pay for his care these people were livid... Pissed off at the government yet again??? Why??? Well, that's purdy simple... These folks thought they were going to inherit this man's savings and are now very pissed off that the government isn't there to provide unlimited payment thru Medicare for his care???

This is the problem I have with ignorant people who preach all this anti-government crap... When the chips are down they can't get enough government...

Beam me up, Scotty... The dumbed down folks are wearin' me out...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:28 PM

"...the idea of taking away birthright citizenship is a certified crackpot notion... take a look at France recently for a likely outcome of such a move."

             Ron - I would agree that France did it the wrong way. On the other hand, they had a lot of agreements with former colonies that kind of boxed them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:39 PM

Oh Simple One:

"..of which 4 were his children". Unproven.

1. DNA doesn't lie. Try reading something published in the last decade. Apparently you see no need for your exalted self to "document" this assertion, or anything else you assert below.

By the way, just a book is not sufficient. We need direct quotes.

2. WE? You mean you? Tough Shit. I don't have time to type the necessary pages on pages of extracts from several studies, and they'd exceed the posting limits here anyway. You don't want to educate yourself? Fine. But that's on you, not me.

You seem to think history can be adequately presented with by one-liners and sound bites. Not so. Sources posted, above, to Rig. Go read'em.

...he did not in fact free most of his slaves--they were sold at auction after his death. Care to dispute that point?

3. Jesus wept. Never did, asshole, and won't now. Learn to read.

...remarkable that you insist on quibbling over 5 or 10...

4. Yes oh Seeker After "Truth", I can understand why you would think correcting a factual error is "quibbling".

... which you only belabored in order to put Rig down...

5. What I did was correct a misstatement of fact. The individual who is "belaboring" this is and has been your own overly verbose self.

6. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:54 PM

WE? You mean you? Tough Shit. I don't have time to type the necessary pages on pages of extracts from several studies, and they'd exceed the posting limits here anyway. You don't want to educate yourself? Fine. But that's on you, not me.

If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. It's not my job to convince myself you're right. If you can't support it, I have no recourse but to think you are lying or deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:00 PM

Greg, maybe if you didn't end your posts with the instructions to "fuck off" people wouldn't get so agitated about them. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:24 PM

If you make a claim, it's your job to support it...

Well, Mouse, its like this. With very little trouble, anyone can find a single quotation by a single author to support any sort of lunatic idea that comes down the pike. You need only refer to the Simple Seeker's bloviation for examples.

History - not being an exact science- is pretty much about how the preponderance of evidence comes down. And a lot of this evidence is in primary sources rather than in popular works.

There isn't room this forum to post vast quantities of this information - evidence, if you like - so I've posted where this evidence can be found.

If that ain't enough, well, sorry, but I can't spoon feed everyone and wipe everyone's ass like Simple wants me to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:28 PM

Rig, I was speaking only to His Royal Highness, and Simple Seeker would get on his pet hobby-horse Hubris if I said the world was round. He may use more and different words to say "fuck off" - but his meaning is clear.

Have a nice evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:42 PM

Okay, thanks Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:52 PM

"DNA doesn't lie."   Fine. And it also does not prove that Jefferson had any children by Sally Hemings.

Even though this may be an article of faith among those left of center, the rest of us have slightly higher standards of proof than the above bald statement.

Nobody asked for pages and pages of quotations. That's a remarkably convenient dodge. Somebody who can do research ought to be able to give a straight answer in a few sentences--with exact source and page number.

It's amazing that the poster has not found the time to do this. He must be quite busy.

But it's good to know that he's feeling more comfortable now back in his home in the gutter.

As I've said before, making him happy is of course the #1 goal for everybody on Mudcat. It certainly is for me. I can't imagine a higher calling in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:56 PM

And Rig, there just is no way to take away birthright citizenship without creating a young underclass with no stake in the success of the country.   That is exactly the lesson of France's recent problems. And they have not solved them--there will be more unrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:08 PM

It also seems that Greg has stopped jumping up and down in ecstasy. Which is all to the good--too much of that might raise his blood pressure.

And I would like to reiterate that I think Greg has truly earned his big gold star.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:28 PM

"And Rig, there just is no way to take away birthright citizenship without creating a young underclass with no stake in the success of the country."

                The point is, they can go back to the country for which they hold citizenship, and fix whatever is wrong there. We don't need them mucking things up here.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:03 PM

You don't understand, Rig.   The young underclass is people born in France (or the US, depending) who know no other life than life in France, and still are not citizens.

It is absurd to expect them to go to, say Algeria, if that is where the parents were born.   They have no connection to Algeria whatsoever.

There is no place to go "back" to.

They are rootless anywhere--and if they are poor, that is more tinder for the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:41 PM

Oh well!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:14 AM

You like your society to be on fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:34 AM

And it also does not prove that Jefferson had any children by Sally Hemings.

For Simple-
1. Please provide references for this assertion.

Nobody asked for pages and pages of quotations.

2. No, you asked for one-liners and sound bites that "prove" nothing whatsoever.

3. Fuck off.

To everyone else:

To anyone willing to give the matter a fair hearing, the recent DNA results combined with other accumulated evidence DOES prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Bibliography available on request.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:50 AM

"You like your society to be on fire?"

               The case in France is different. But read Sanity's post. It captures most of the essentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 May 10 - 12:33 PM

I would suggest that because history tends to take the perspective of the writer, much of what is in school texts is already biased.

When Olive P Dickason wrote "Myth of the Savage" she demonstrated clearly that the Iroquois had a functioning democracy in mid-eastern Canada and north-astern US long before Europeans ever came here. That is largely ignored.

I know of fewhistory texts used below undergraduate level that fairly treat Blacks, Mexicans, Asians or Native North Americans. Much of what I can gather from Arizona (and elsewhere) is that those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies." How quaint.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:08 PM

Yes, ethnic studies is probably at the root of the Balkanizing of America. It should be scrutinized carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:10 PM

those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies."

Precisely. And its more than "quaint" - its disingenuous & hypocritical-
not to say white supremecist.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:15 PM

Oh, I don't know. When you're comparing the greatest all time Aztec poet to Shakespeare, how do you define quality?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:58 PM

What does that have to do with the price of Kahlua in Guadalupe?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:52 PM

By Greg's definition if you compare the greatest Aztec poet to Shakespeare, and you determine Shakespeare if better, you are by definition a white supremeist.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:12 PM

Unless you have the verse and the name of the 'greatest Aztec poet', Rig, there is no argument.

Ascertaining white supremisism is not that difficult, really. For instance, you. If you don't want to go down in history with that label you gotta start mending your ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:31 PM

I don't see that from what Greg has written, Rig. You must have access to other writings that don't appear here.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:36 PM

Lie down on the couch, cover hour forehead with a warm, moist towel, close your eyes, and it will come to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:44 PM

No wonder you keep seeing things that don't exist. You have a strange way of debating, Grasshopper.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:44 PM

It would seem that if a number of historian from diverse ethnic backgrounds were to be put in a room with about a month to rewrite an American History book that told the entire story in a factual manner we would get something that might just make ethnic studes a thing of the past...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:50 PM

That's a good idea, Bobert, but I'd give 'em a couple of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 08:00 PM

"Ascertaining white supremisism is not that difficult, really. For instance, you. If you don't want to go down in history with that label you gotta start mending your ways..."


             You think so, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 10 - 11:48 PM

Yep. It's not too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 07:54 AM

I'll take it under advisement.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:10 PM

"'Much of what I can gather from Arizona (and elsewhere) is that those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies." How quaint.'"

               There are people who do not live in border states that are not familiar with the concept of Aztlan, and the organization called MEChA, and how this mythology works to undermine society in general. It might make sense to wonder why the law on Ethnic Studies goes to the trouble to forbid a teacher from advocating an overthrow to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:38 PM

"...recent DNA results..."

What a wonderful little mantra.   The poster certainly has hypnotized himself with it.

A bit puzzling that there is no actual proof cited.

And by the way, history is an inexact science only to the lazy.

The rest of us don't make blunt statements without proof. A historian would couch this assertion in terms of probability.    Which "of which 4 were his children" is not.

I recognize that we really can't expect anything but sloppy writing--to go with sloppy thinking of course---from the poster in question.

But he has cited no proof that 4 of the slaves Jefferson freed were his own children--perhaps for the very good reason that there is no proof.


Mousethief has put it exquisitely well:


"If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. It's not my job to convince myself you're right. If you can't support it, I have no recourse but to think you are lying or deluded."   

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:43 PM

Also, Rig, you may think that the French situation is vastly different from the US situation regarding birthright citizenship.

Not so.   It is exactly the point that your proposal to withdraw birthright citizenship from the children of illegal immigrants would create precisely the same disastrous situation in the US as France now has:    a young underclass with no citizenship here and no ties anywhere else.

It is a classic loser of an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:17 PM

Oh Very, Very Simple One:

1. since you are incapable of performing even the Simplest tasks for yourself,like a two-second web search for example, start here:

www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings_resource.html

2. For a detailed explanation see Gordon-Reed's Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: an American Controversy Univ. of Va Press, 1997.

3. For an analysis of more recent information, see Gordon-Reed's The Hemingses of Monticello: An American Family W. W. Norton, 2008

5. Fuck Off

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:32 PM

Let us know when you're willing to provide proof, not theories.

Lists of books are, sorry to say, no proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:36 PM

You would think from the frequency that Greg says "fuck off" he really doesn't want to talk with you. And then he keeps coming back. Clearly it's a meaningless ejaculation from him. I'll bet his wife is used to meaningless ejaculations from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 10:31 PM

Yikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:34 AM

Ah, but then, oh Simplistic Simple Seeker, its not the list, its what's IN the books.

Mouse- There's no point my trying to communicate with SS the All Knowing Asshole. The info is posted for those who might actually want the facts.

Almost forgot- Seeker: Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:49 AM

Gee, Greg, it looks like you still haven't learned the difference between a fact and a probability.

You might want to open a dictionary at some point.

As Mousethief points out, the burden is on you to support your theory. Thus far, no proof has been provided.

As I said, a historian will point out if an assertion he makes is a fact or a theory.   Not that I would say that you are a dilettante and no historian. I certainly wouldn't want to say that.


But we certainly have a wonderful symbiotic relationship, don't we?   You wallow in the gutter and I look down at you and admire your technique of wallowing--even though it certainly seems to indicate a rather limited vocabulary. And we're both quite happy. Please don't tell me you're not happy.   I don't know how I could live with that knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:13 AM

Looks like the The Towering Intellect and Logician, a.k.a. Simple Seeker is one of those who would censor and/or ban books without reading them. Fascinating.

Interesting also that he would undertake the hopeless task of attempting to prove a negative - and characteristically without providing any
facts of his own.

So its still Simple: Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:37 AM

I am not a professional historian. Just an avid amateur. But a bit more serious than the poster in question.

I would certainly hope that said the poster makes no claims to be a serious historian--I'm afraid that in itself would give the profession a bad name.   Much as it pains me--and you know it does-- I'd have to say that it does not take much to be more serious than the poster, who seemingly has no idea of the difference between a fact and a probability, and considers that obscene ranting substitutes for logic and facts.   

Though admittedly he could give a master class in obscene ranting.

But don't worry, we'll teach him logical thinking and careful writing--it's obvious somebody needs to. Not that we'll ever bring him out of the gutter--which is after all, his home.

And in the meantime, he does provide--at least fitfully amusing--entertainment.

But sometimes I think he's not happy. And that troubles me--since his happiness is paramount over all else on Mudcat.


But the burden of proof, as Mousethief noted, is still on the poster in question, and nobody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:38 AM

"...that said poster..."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 09:16 AM

Thus Spake His Simple Omniscience:

I am not a professional historian

Rather belaboring the obvious.

Otherwise, the usual pile of steaming bull-crap from His Magnificence, not so neatly side-stepping (ignoring?)the germaine and any of the points at issue.

And talk about ex catheter statements....

Still So Simple- Fuck Off.

(Bibliography of works on historiography available upon request.)