I've heard it all now-Moon Spruce from Switzerland

Subject: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

From the 'Dream Guitars' website:

'...a perfect piece of Moon Spruce from Switzerland. This is very rare wood harvested at a precise phase of the moon to minimize the resins. It is felled with the aid of helicopters to minimize the impact of the fall.'

Does anyone actually believe this nonsense?

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

The Moon's a Balloon (David Niven).

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

Selected by white cloaked, grey- bearded dowsers. Harvested at midnight under the full moon, by maidens pure in thought and deed, using golden sickles. Carried on white mares to be lovingly seasoned for a thousand years in a secret monastery in Tibet, turned every century by enlightened Zen monks in total silence. Hand carved in a Cotswold cottage by the browned, wizened fingers of dedicated artisans steeped in the lore of their ancient craft.

Hecate Holistic Enterprises brings you the Aquarius toilet seat....

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

...and frogs are struggling - world wide!

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

I believe it! I believe it! It's in the magazines or on television or on the Internet so I believe it! And did you know that rubber axes are used to fell the tree so that the tree's self-esteem is preserved?

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM

And they lay a string of air mattresses to cushion the impact of the fall.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM

And during the building process they apologize to the tree and keep telling it how great a tree it is and how it will produce the best music heard since Theseus went to Hades.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:18 AM

And what's more, this is a virgin tree -- it has never been pollinated or touched by branch or root of another tree.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

Playing devil's advocate here--
So why exactly are you dismissing it out of hand? Just because "phase of moon" sounds like witchcraft?

There is a distinct difference in wood cut at different times of year -- winter-cut wood has less sap; that's why we can get maple syrup in the spring -- the sap rises.

Now I don't know about any monthly cycles, but I'm not a tree expert. But it could be -- women have a monthly cycle; due to hormones rather than the phase of the moon, but it can correspond. Are you enough of a tree expert to say nothing of the sort is happening with trees?

Professional woodcutters in Europe often talk about the necessity of cutting wood at the right time, and sometimes use language that sounds downright medieval. I'm not going to make fun of them for it; they are the experts. I listen with some skepticism, and suspect that the words used are a shorthand for what is really happening (as in a woman's menstrual cycle) but until I see a scientific study I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

Well, it is hard to resist Paul Burke's report: "Selected by white cloaked, grey- bearded dowsers. Harvested at midnight under the full moon, by maidens pure in thought and deed, using golden sickles. Carried on white mares to be lovingly seasoned for a thousand years in a secret monastery in Tibet, turned every century by enlightened Zen monks in total silence. Hand carved in a Cotswold cottage by the browned, wizened fingers of dedicated artisans steeped in the lore of their ancient craft."

How can something like that not be true?

(On the other hand, I have seen logging done by helicopter in rugged terrain in Oregon)

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:10 AM

They blast big Elk horns before the tree is cut as a warning... so as to not accidentally hit one of the wood elves that maybe living near by.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM

Gotta admit though, it's a good example of marketing hype... I especially like the helicopters part. I know helicopters are used in some logging, but more to prevent damage to valuable surrounding trees than to "minimize the impact of the fall". Horse teams are also sometimes used; they do a lot less damage to the surrounding forest than a logging machine.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Sounds pretty sensible to me. The full moon is supposed to make the sap rise, that's a natural cycle. Same as sap rises in the spring, when likewise you don't cut trees back. Helicopters to help fell trees isn't exactly mysterious either.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Now don't get me going, you know I like this sort of thing.

The sap rises in the Spring because it gets warmer, and the tree's metabolism picks up. Warmer means more power from the Sun hitting the bit of the Earth where the tree is. Now, we know pretty well the power that hits the Earth from the Sun: it's about 1360 kW (kilowatts) per square kilometre, and it goes up and down with the seasons because of the tilt of the Earth's axis.

Because the Moon is in about the same orbit as the Earth from the Sun's point of view, we can take that as the power figure reaching the Moon too. The Moon has a radius of about 1738km, it has an area (thinking of it as a flat disc) of 9.5 million square kilometres. So the total power hitting the Moon is 9.5e6(*) x 1360 = 13000 million watts (1.3e10W). The Moon has an "albedo"- reflectivity- of 0.136, so it re- radiates a power of 1.3e10 x .136 = 1.8e9W.

The radius of the Moons orbit is about 385000km. Think of the moon re- radiating its power over a hemisphere the size of its orbit, towards the Earth (we're not interested if the power goes the other way, that's not full moon). 2 x Pi x radius squared: that's the surface of a hemisphere. 2 x Pi x 385000 squared = 0.9 billion square kilometres (9e11). So at the Earth, the Moon is sending us just 1.8e9/9e11 = 2 milliwatts (thousandths of a watt) per square kilometre.

That's not a lot: two milliwatts is a lot less than what your mobile phone takes on standby (it takes a few watts when you're using it).

Even a big tree is nothing like a square kilometre in area, so I think we have to look for another possible source of influence if there IS any effect on trees. I'll do gravity when you've all woken up.

As for it's effect on people, that we can see by moonlight is a tribute to the wonderful nature of our eyes, that can adapt to light levels over a power range of about a billion to one (the range from bright sunlight to quarter- moon is only a few million to one). Our eyes have evolved to cope with the range of useful illumination available.

(*) This 'e' means "This number is followed by the following number of zeros", and is commonly used in computer programming and engineering to save us writing lots of zeros. Mathematicians don't like it because they've got a different 'e' which is a fixed number a bit like Pi, but with a value of about 2.72.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

...so it's all in the Do-Re-E then?

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM

It's nothing new, but it would be interesting to experience the difference first-hand.

http://www.tonewood.ch/moonwood.html

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

Bottom line is - it's a guitar. If someone ever buys it we can only hope they will do so because it sounds good and plays well.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM

Well I just read that BP's corporate newspaper is extolling the benefits of the Gulf oil spill - it has provided employment for endless numbers of people in Louisiana for the clean up.
I believe I have heard it all now.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM

From the link: "The best trees are found at higher mountain elevations of over 1000 meters, typically on northern exposures where nutrient-poor soil and a cool climate promote a short growing season."

Interesting, that. I was wondering how they would go about finding a sustainable source for knot-less timber.

Knots come from where branches tie in to the tree trunk. In good soil and with good growing conditions - reliable production of rain and enough sunshine and warmth- branches will grow close to the ground, will begin forming in the tree trunk very early in its development.

So, a tree suitable for musical instruments and fine cabinetry will be a tree that has survived despite poor growing conditions.

I didn't know that. Makes me think of a guitar differently.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM

Ebbie, I believe a tree produces wood without knots when it is the right distance from neighboring trees. Given the right conditions, it sheds useless limbs (those not getting light) without producing knots.

Knots are produced when a limb is broken and needs to be sealed off by the tree.

Guitars are innocent.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Perhaps it dates back donkeys years, and tree rings, to Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata"?...

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:42 PM

"Knots are produced when a limb is broken and needs to be sealed off by the tree."

Nononono. Study the structure of a tree (or any vascular plant). The stem, and the branches, are made of concentric tubes, an inner tube that goes woody in trees and my wife's broccoli, and an outer juicier bit- this gets gnawed by deer, squirrels and so on, leading to the tree dying, because it's the bit that carries the sugars made by photosynthesis down to the roots, giving them the energy to pipe water and salts up to the green bits up top. A knot happens whenever the system branches, because both the inner woody bit has to get through the side.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:11 PM

What Paul Burke said. I think.

Be that as it may, knots are caused by a tree branch. You won't find a knot in a palm tree. No branches.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM

WAV: what was Beethoven's day job when he wrote the Moonlight Sonata?

And Sinsull: you ain't heard nothin' yet. The Supreme Court has ruled that MadScientistO can plant geriatrically modified stuff without waiting to see if it is safe. Safe means it doesn't screw up the neighbours. Of Course it's safe: they have all the measures in place.

Genes hunt in packs- changing one can potentially change the interaction of a whole bunch of them. We don't know enough about WHY they interact as they do to predict what will happen. Probably nothing, but what figure is on that "probably"? And who has studied how the genes interact after a couple of acccidental crosses with the other plants out there?

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM

From a blog- made me laugh out loud:

"[This user is an administrator] Sally Burton
I like Palin, I truly think that Palin would have done a better job than what we have in the white house now. What makes this all sad is that Obama was voted in because he made the people out there think he is black, when he isnt black, he is muslin. Havent u noticed he doesnt wanna get into the border war? Did y'll know that the taliban is now learning spanish to make there way into America? Did u know that if we do not control our borders that they will soon be here?

"Wake up people with Obama and the Dumbocrats in the white house, we are all in trouble!!
"Have you guys even read his book? He refers the muslins as his
brothers."

Watch out for those MUSLINS

I've just about heard it all now.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 11:45 PM

At least he doesn't claim to be white as linen.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM

The writer, Sally Burton, is evidently one of those who says this is a doggy dog world.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM

She would of, had she been asked.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:18 AM

"A knot happens whenever the system branches"

I don't think so. If that were true, there wouldn't be beautiful pieces of clear wood such as we see in fine furniture. There would be a knot every foot or two.

No, I had a class on this once, and there is some kind of connection between the spacing of the trees, the natural dropping of useless limbs, and the production of knot-free timber.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 02:32 AM

I'll look it up. However, when raw lumber is cut deep enough - to get past the spot where a branch had occurred, it would then not have a knot in that spot.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_(wood)#Knots

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 10:05 AM

If you really want the most resonant wood free of resins etc., just soak it for a year in a river, give it a mild alkaline rinse, let it dry, mill it and let it dry for another 2+ years.

In effect this is the kind of wood in which Stradavari used, somewhat by accident in that the timber was floated down the river, got soaked, was rinsed dryed and milled to dry for several years.

The pores of the wood are left virtually hollow and free of chitin and resin which makes for a superior acoustic conductor. To further convey the idea, perhaps you have noticed how certain kinds of packing foam conducts sound extremely well and that non porous forms of rubber do the opposite.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:13 PM

As far as packing foam is concerned that is rubbish.

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now.
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

Hehehe. I get it!

Subject: RE: I've heard it all now-Moon Spruce from Switzerland
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:42 AM

I understand that some of the rafts of spruce and other timber cut in the upper Great Lakes region in the 1800s is being reclaimed from the bottom of the Great Lakes. It's supposed to make wonderful instruments and exquisite furniture.