BS: Thoughts on Water

Subject: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

I just came from a site about the Colorado River and the implications of its dwindling supply, due to drought and over-use.

We all agree that water is of paramount importance. I'd like to hear others' ideas on what the problems are and things we can do to mitigate them or even help solve some of them.

I'll start with a couple of ideas of my own:

1) Costly and cumbersome or not, I think all buildings should have at least two water systems, one for potable, pure water for drinking and cooking and bathing which in turn can be sent to another for toilets, gardening and watering. All water should be used at least twice.

2) As for the vast amounts needed for commercial irrigation a simple changeover to nighttime activity would save tremendous amounts of water. Homeowners are told that watering the lawn in the evening so that less moisture is lost to evaporation. Just think how much more would be saved by all-night irrigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: pdq
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 03:53 PM

We have plenty of water. The problem is too many people.

Watering your lawn at night can cause lawn fungus problems, and spraying the lawn can cost money. Replacing it is a big waste of time, money and natural resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 03:54 PM

"I think all buildings should have at least two water systems, ..."

And when the dog or the kids drink out of the toilet? *grin*... It has a nice sound to the idea, Ebbie, but the practicalities of plumbing and expense would be a problem.

Now for certain areas, where water is scarce and expensive, there are already various recycling setups. The biggest problem is expanding population and manufacturing and demand on systems like the Colorado river, where there is something like requests for 140% of available resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

A good article on Landscape irrigation from Clemson Univ. Extension Service:
Irrigation

Early morning watering, completed about 5 AM, is recommended. The timing may vary in other regions.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 04:27 PM

I have seen full daylight irrigation in fields in Nevada. This could be determined by time-sharing agreements, but my feeling is that farming should not be allowed in hot, arid regions.

This would, however, stop some monetarily important agriculture, for example, bush cotton (long staple Pima) growing in southern New Mexico and Arizona.
Cotton is a recommended crop for these semi-arid areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: pdq
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:07 PM

"Early morning watering, completed about 5 AM, is recommended."   ~ Q

This is more of a cultural consideration that a horticultural one. The peak demand for water is probably from 5:00-9:00 in both the AM and PM.

If you want to avoid that time period, try 9:00-10:00 in the morning. Lawns are often a serious investment and deserve to be treated well. They can raise the value of your property and be a source of pride for the whole neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM

Watering - at home as in commercial irrigation - tends to be needed during hot weather. Hot, dry weather conditions are not really conducive to mold or funguses - that tends to form in cool, damp areas.

"Full daylight irrigation" is the norm throughout the west- don't know how it's done in the east- but it is in the west that one finds the mega-fields.

The money? Absolutely. However, added expense for innovations has always been cited as a deterrent to existing technology, and yet it somehow it always has been incorporated with not a whole lot of fuss. Think: electric wiring into homes, burying utility lines underground, fuel injection instead of carburation (gadzooks! How IS that word spelt?) , automatic shifting instead of manual - I'm sure we can all think of long lists of upgrades and tweaks that are now part of the norm but all were expensive to instate.

"dogs or kids drinking out of the toilet"? First, I long ago learnt to put the cover down and if people were worried about it, they could all learn the habit. (What else are the cute lid covers for if it is not display?)

For that matter, I suspect that far more kids drink water in their baths than drink out of the toilet!

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 05:29 PM

"Lawns are often a serious investment and deserve to be treated well. They can raise the value of your property and be a source of pride for the whole neighborhood." pdq

You may not be aware of it but there has long been a push to let one's lawn during summer months return to a natural state in the dry season.

Reminds me of a conversation I once had with my artist brother. I was speaking of the long-term deformities of the feet of women who routinely wear high heels and narrow-toed shoes. In disagreement, my brother said, You have to admit that women's legs are prettier when they're wearing high heels.

And I said, Then we need to modify our views on beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

Watering in early morn... I always thought is was the right thing to do because plants transpire during the night and use the day for a photo op.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

pdq, the Clemson extension service article does state that peak water demand is 5AM-9AM, thus watering before that time is desirable.
One may install timers, if watering in the very early morning hours interferes with your beddy-bye time.

There is greatly lessening demand for lawns in the semiarid and arid areas; many people are changing to xerarch plantings which can be very attractive, and require much less water (with lower water bills).
Several homeowners in my neighborhood have removed much or all of their lawns. Home value is not affected by the change.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:48 PM

"automatic shifting instead of manual - I'm sure we can all think of long lists of upgrades and tweaks that are now part of the norm but all were expensive to instate."

Some 'upgrades' are wasteful - auto transmissions have an inherent loss compared with manual systems. At 'full speed lockup' there is minimal loss, but even at idle such systems consume extra power compared with idling in neutral. Upgrading to halogen downlights causes many problems, including house fires due to the extra heat not being dealt with properly. Air conditioning chews electricity - because the houses are built in such an energy inefficient way compared to older houses designed with higher ceiling and passive air cooling systems, such as water cooling towers as in certain desert countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM

It is not as critical here in NZ, but it is happening, largely due to the high returns for dairying. Extraction from rivers for irrigation for feed, and runoff back into rivers -theoretically accidental- is ruining some very good fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:04 PM

AN awful lot of good fresh water runs off city structures straight to storm drains. It would be simple, in new construction, to provide for freshwater capture and storage to offset the use of imported water from the Colorado, etc. Even desert areas like ours in San Diego has periods of peak rainstorm.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:14 PM

Amos, we still live like campers, don't we. Just no arrangements for the future.
I have seen multiple 'dams' across streams which help to turn surface water into groundwater. Movers and shakers might see that as wastage of land, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 07:31 PM

Australia has just started on the nightmare of trying to return approx 1/3 of water in the Murray Darling basin back to the river - so it can reliably reach the sea - by cutting back on 'irrigation'. Much fuss and mud slinging, pardon the phrase....

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:52 PM

Amos... been around for years. Stormwater management regarding capture and storage will be incorporated in many future designs IF the politicians listen to the engineers.

The track record of the politicians is not good (no shit, Sherlock!). They only rely on getting re-elected based on the stupidity of the populace.

I have been in MANY meetings where I was chastised, based on personal greed, for my designs ... "What do you mean you designed "it" for a fourty year life cycle? The president has a five year term! You have to build it for a lot less... and by the end of the fiscal year."

Fookin idiots! But, it happens every day and it's not limited to paving a parking lot or widening a street or.... It applies to, oh, say, the Alberta Tar Sands... the tragedy in Hungary.

I think it's about time that politicians were considered professionals who are libel for their actions. They get paid well and should should have to be held accountable for their actions. When they do things that are at odds to what they are advised to do by doctors, laywers, engineers.... and things get fucked up, they should be held accountable, in a court of law, financially and criminally.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 08:59 PM

we have huge billboard here, during the hot summer months which remind folks to water later in the evening and early in the morning. I cringe when I see municipalities and home-owners with water going full blast at high noon. For one it is a gross waste due to rapid evaporation and two it causes sunburn on the plants. There is absolutely no danger of any mold or fungi from watering at night in the high desert.

The eastern slope of Colorado was/is(?) growing so much, they actually tried to build a huge "straw," I kid you not, which was to suck back water from the Colorado just west of us, just before the Utah border. The straw was to carry it back over the Rockies to Denver, etc.!

We always let our lawn, such as it is, grow out. We never water except for a soaking from a hose leading from the irrigation pipe and that is infrequent and gravity fed. The only time we mow is when the weeds try to take over, esp. the foxtail as it is dangerous to pets. The only thing we use city water for is a quick bit every morning of my perennial bed, a new small tree and butterfly bush. Fortunately, we have a few large trees which get a good soaking from the irrigation hose about once per week during the summer and/or from naturally occurring underground water.

Ebbie, I agree...there has to be enough of a demand for the innovation, but there is no good reason, imo, for them not to go ahead with making good use of so-called grey water, everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Can you imagine how much good sweet water it would free up? Boggles the mind. And as Amos implied, roof runoff could go straight into the cisterns/ reservoirs.

Many a household off the grid drinks rainwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 10:40 PM

I know and, here I sit, in our house with no use of grey water and no affordable means to do it, yet.

When we lived on the ranch we hauled our water in a 250 gallon tank behind our Subaru wagon once a week. That was it...we each took boths or showers every day, Rog, the kids and I and we watered the horse, dogs, birds and cats...even had water for ducks, but I never did dishes or laundry. We used mostly paper and had the laundry done in town as I was working full-time, too. It made more sense all the way round even though I'd insisted, early in our living together, that I HAD to have a new washer/dryer, refrigerator and stove and Rog bought them for me.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:10 PM

Yes, grey water handling is very basic, very important.

Why not eliminate the need for homeowner lawn-watering? Why water anything but food?

I would like to re-think the notion of lawns not just in arid or semi-arid climes but also the temperate climate of North America. Way back when, planted the familiar stuff from home (mostly the UK & France originally, at least this far north Spain didn't settle). There must be better plant choices than grasses that need more rain than we reliably get, for example here in Ontario. The annual rainfall here is something around 32" but only once every few years does enough of that fall in summer to keep large lawns green. Our small, wind-sheltered lawn stayed lush and green during this hot, dry summer and I don't know why--perhaps because we did not water and only mowed every 2 weeks?

When we were putting in a lawn I found precious little help when I contacted so-called eco-friendly lawn installers. Maybe 'Catters will know good alternatives to grass that will remain healthy in our low-rain summers (less than 8" May 1-Sept 30) and yet be mowable enough to be a play area for kids and/or dogs, perennial so it won't need planting each year. And it should be sturdy enough to out compete at least some of the coarse weeds.

Okay, as I type that list of qualifications for grass-lawn substitute, maybe it won't be easy.

What about crown vetch that the highway people are using alongside roads so they don't have to pay to mow at all...does it respond well to mowing? Its fairly lush and soft under fott, though the flowers attract bees, not a great thing if it's a kids' play area.

A lot to consider. Thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:12 PM

I posted some thoughts earlier, but they're gone into the big bit bucket.

If I stopped watering (2 a.m., 6 zones, max 25 mins. per zone, twice weekly) I would be cutting down my "circle of defense" in case of wildfire -- which happens out here all too frequently and much burns when it does. Oh, yeah, I have the street out front and the golf course beyond my back yard (why a golf course in high desert country?) but wind-carried embers don't discriminate. Two years ago we re-roofed, from a 1968-installed cedar shake roof to one that is Class A fire-rated and will (supposedly) withstand 120 mph winds (and check out the wind velocities of a firestorm).

Additionally, my lawn helps to cool the area, just as the golf course and the trees do. The water I use returns to the aquafer and eventually comes back to me via the wells that supply the city's water.

BUT! The water I use to bathe, flush, and so on COULD be send to a treatment facility where it could be recycled into the city's potable water system. That would reduce the call on the aquafer while still supplying needed water. Indeed, my "gray water" could be used to water my lawn while the "black water" would be recycled. It's already being done in some cities and towns.

Water, the old saying has it, is the true gold of The West. The problem is in Las Vegas, in LA, in Phoenix, and other cities which drain the Colorado. This city owns about 5,000 acre-feet (call it 1629257.14286 US gallons per acre-foot) in a nearby reservoir -- and the city of Denver is ready and willing to run a pipeline over the Teton range to tap into this reservoir.

Everyone is going to HAVE to cooperate or The Great American Desert will truly become such.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:33 PM

Most people shear grass far too short, to the extent that water loss is massively increased - why do you think grass naturally grows higher that we want it? My grandfather was a lawn bowl green keeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

Here is what I think is an interesting statistic: The average age of all water/wastewater workers in the USA is 56. Can you guess what might happen in just a few years when these people retire? I daresay that anyone who really wants a good job with an excellent chance of advancement would do well to check into their local waterworks or wastewater treatment plant.

BTW, a lot of folks think only of toilet water when they think of wastewater treatment. There is a broad range of types of wastewater treatment facilities. Many industries have their own wastewater treatment plants, including the manufacturers of circuit boards, paints, food products, and so on. Some hotels and some restaurants - usually those that are not connected to a city or county system - have their own wastewater treatment plants.

Water treatment is not limited to municipal water supply. Most state and national parks have their own water and wastewater treatment plants. Some schools have small water treatment systems. Not far from where I live there is a golf course that has its own water and wastewater treatment plants.

So, if you know a young person who is in need of career employment, (as opposed to just a job flipping burgers or helping WalMart to make money,) this could be a great place to start. I work in this field myself and find it very rewarding. I think of it as a "hands on" means of making improvements in the ecology.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:38 AM

Thoughts on Water = 'Wet Dreams'??

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

We are very conscious of water use here in New Mexico...anyone who has ever seen the Rio Grande knows that it isn't very grand. Our neighbors to the west aren't as good about it. Phoenix gets much of its water from the Colorado River, via canals and pipelines. These are largely open to the air, and subject to evaporation. They also have fountains all over town and put in a large recreational lake a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:48 AM

Well Art, when you live in Phoenix you gotta have something, for goodness sakes!

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:59 AM

#1 With today's sanitary biotic dry toilets there is no reason to continue to poop in our drinking water supply.

#2 Dwindling? The Colorado River has not reached the sea for decades now.

#3 Big Gas Corp. Fracking has reduced drinking water with a flamable toxic sludge for residents who previously relied on pristine well water.

#4 The Romans arguably did a better job of water transportaion than we have.

#5 Water has a virtually mysterious spiritual side on a molecular scale of which 99% of people are unaware. It is actually interactive in a manner which is revealed in frozen microscopy.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:03 PM

Which reminds me of something I just don't get...just down and around the corner from us is a fire station. In front, near the building is a memorial to those who lost their lives fighting fires. There is a plaque on the wall with names. Below, situated in a bed of decorative rock is a red fire hydrant from the top of which spouts a mediocre stream of water...it never really "fountains" up, it just sort of bubbles in blobs as it runs down over the edge. I don't know if it then recycles or not, but it seems such a waste, esp. in the summer, and absurd in the winter as they leave it on to turn to ice when the temps drop. I am all for a memorial, I just don't understand the thinking behind this one's design.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 01:48 PM

I'd suggest going to the fire station and asking, kat, but the chances it was started so long ago that no one now knows why.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 02:51 PM

Kat, when I read your post, my first thought was, Tears?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 04:11 PM

toilet waste has a use

turning poop into power

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:00 PM

Kat, a water treatment plant near me has a similar "fountain" in it's front entrance. You are correct to believe that the water is recirculated. Why they don't turn it off in the winter, I sure don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:50 PM

I imagine that the overwhelming silence from the UK is because we get quite a lot of rain.

I wonder, however at the lack of mention of the fact (if I correctly recollect) that more water is wasted in the UK from supply pipe faults than actually reaches and is used by consumers.

Whatever the proportion, the wastage due to defective infrastructure is huge. It happens because the privatised water companies would rather pay dividends to shareholders than spend money on repairing said infrastructure.

Once again, the cause of problems for mankind is capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:21 PM

Ebbie, I've thought about calling them to ask; just haven't ever done it. It doesn't look that old, maybe 1980s or so, so someone should be around who would know. I may just have to call and report back.

Gurney...never thought of that! BIG tears, but still eloquent when ya think about it. Thanks.

Wesley, that's good to know. I may ask them about the winter thing, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on Water
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:55 AM

If it was meant to symbolize tears one would think they would be a little more artsy than to use a fire hydrant. But maybe not.