BS: What's the use of grandma's?

Subject: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:43 AM

Fitness benefits of prolonged post-reproductive lifespan in women, MIRKKA LAHDENPERÄ et al., Nature 428, 178–181

The human is unusual among animals in that females often live for many years after ceasing reproduction. For this to be favoured during evolution, mothers that live long after ceasing reproduction should have more grandchildren, and hence propagate more genes, than those that live for only a short time. A proper test of this theory requires reproductive histories going back for several generations, and two sources have been found that fit the bill. Population registers taken by the Lutheran Church in Finland between 1702 and 1823, and in Quebec during the second half of the nineteenth century both show that a prolonged post-reproductive lifespan is associated with larger numbers of grandchildren. In the presence of a post-reproduction mother, offspring bred at a younger age and had children more frequently, and
their children had a better chance of surviving to adulthood.

Another bit from inside the article to show the older MC women when they are expected to finally die:
...mortality rates accelerate from the time that offspring begin to terminate reproduction suggest(ing) that selection for post-reproductive longevity is deferred only until a woman's own offspring finish reproducing.

I found it both amusing and interesting. But I have at least two questions to the authors:

(1) Could it not be vice versa, namely that many grandchildren are the reason for keeping old women longer fit?
(2) What is the use of Grandads then? Why have they not studied them too? Men can be caring and supportive as well as women.

(Now, SOPHIE, get out and stop crying, go to your mum, Daddy's at work, or so)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: ced2
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:20 AM

Grandma's what?

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:20 AM

Elephants and various of the apes show the same principles.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:46 AM

Well gol danged, Wolfy. I just heared yesterday on the radio that scientists have found some way of gettin' fenale mices to make eggs long after they should an' of. If it works in the womenz then there would be no for ever having no gandmas 'cause, shoot, the womenz could keep havin' the, chillamos well into their 90's so your mama would start out looking like a grandma. Sound okay to me, 'cept Iz hopin' that the P-Vine don't her 'bout this 'er she'll sign us up an' next thing you know this ol' hillbilly 'ill be startin' teething and diaper threads......

That's my take on this very impotent matter...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:20 AM

Well, somedays I feel a lot more fit and younger since our grandson has come to live with us, with his mom, and other days I feel like it's taken years off my life!**bg** So, go figure...I would imagine and believe, in my case, that the increased activity of taking care of a baby has done nothing but helped my "fitness" and I anticipate this will continue to be true. It seems to be true of "Grandpa" Rog, too. BUT, I also think there are psychological benefits which are equally important.

Thanks for the info, Wolfgang.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM

Grammas are essential to making childrearing possible and balanced in our current age of insane time-burning and two-income families. They provide balanced perspective, additional manpower, guidance and wisdom. I am only sorry we are down to one in our family.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Bohdran Killer
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

My grandma's are no feckin use at all, both pusing up the daisies.
Killer

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM

Child-rearing is incredibly burdensome for humans. Human children are entirely dependent upon human adults for their survival and stay "in the nest" longer than any other species. The presence of a grandmother in a family provides a source for additional child care, assistance during illnesses and pregnancies, and other child-rearing advantages. It's much easier for a woman to care for her children and produce additional healthy offspring if help is available. In tribal societies, the entire tribe may be the source of child-rearing assistance, but in western society, it has usually been the grandmother who has performed the role.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: JenEllen
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:18 AM

The use of grandma's? With any luck, they teach you punctuation....*bg*

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:27 AM

Touche. Smile back.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM

Grandmas are very useful for keeping the smile on grandpas face. Oh and they make nice buns.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:57 PM

I only wish that I still had mine.
It used to be that we all stayed in the same community and looked out for each other. Now we are all spread out across the nation, the continent, the world. And since we are all "out for ourselves" almost no-one has grandma or grandpa or both rooming with them in their old age.

Traditionally men died off before women because of work conditions. Not that some of the chemicals found in the home aren't extremely dangerous, but things like black lung and other cancers and extremely hazardous situations didn't take place in the home (unless the man carried dust or chemicals into the house with them). Take into account the hard drinking and smoking which used to mainly be a macho thing (they have now sold it to women...you've come a long way baby!) wars etc. and of course you have a lower life expectancy for males.

There is also some scientific evidence to suggest a "biological clock". Unfortuantely the male only has an hour glass whcih has no snooze button.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: JenEllen
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM

I think #1 is certainly valid. My Nana has 30(ish) grandchildren, and each new young one seems to take years off of her. We secretly joke that it is because she has to have all of the extra time to run through the ever-growing list of names when she yells at someone: "Barry, Terry, Len, Larry, Moe, Curly, Ringo...YOU! Come HERE!"

I don't think #2 would work very well unless you outline your time frame. In current time, I think men are taking on a caregiver role much more often than they might have in the past. Even in my own grandfather's generation, the men were very seldom at home with the children. They might be caring, but they aren't the primary caregiver. I don't think the chances of finding examples of men-as-primary would be much greater in the time periods mentioned above. However, it would be interesting to see if male life expectancies are lengthening with their currently changing roles.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:33 AM

They are like the canneries down the pit, if there's gas the cannery falls off the pirch
The same with grannies if the fall dead of the Zimmer frame it's a cold winter

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:37 AM

forgot to put my name on the one above

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:25 AM

Canneries ? down pits ?
Why? How can a ' cannery' fall off anything ?
eric

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Bohdran Killer
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:27 AM

Our canary once fell off it's perch, pissed I expect.
Killer

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: ranger1
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:05 PM

1. Raising the kids who would otherwise end up in foster care (like I would've if my gramma hadn't raised me)
2. Reading stories (same book, over and over and over without complaining)
3. Baking cookies (and letting us decorate them)
4. Mending (holey clothing, skinned knees and broken hearts)
5. Teaching (live by the Golden Rule, question authority, have a good work ethic and vote democrat were the lessons I came away with)

Lotsa good uses for a Grandma.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 03:49 PM

They are part of a matched set with gradpas.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: annamill
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 04:23 PM

"...mortality rates accelerate from the time that offspring begin to terminate reproduction suggest(ing) that selection for post-reproductive longevity is deferred only until a woman's own offspring finish reproducing."

????

Isn't she pretty old at this point? of course the mortality rate goes up!! She's OLD! How silly!

Love. Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 06:03 PM

The implication being that while grandmothers are very handy in enabling the next generation to succesfully look after their children, great-grandmothers don't have the same value.

I suppose in a rough kind of way that is true. And the same would apply to grandfathers, but to a lesser extent, reflected in the fact that men don't tend to live as long as women.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:29 AM

Men tend to die much quicker in comparison after they have lost the ability to reproduce.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:47 AM

Strictly speaking that's not true Wolfgang - there's no real male equivalent of a menopause, so there are men who are capable of reproducing at a much later stage in their life.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST,Werner
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:50 PM

(1) Could it not be vice versa, namely that many grandchildren are the reason for keeping old women longer fit?

No. (Because of natural selection/ "survival of the fittest". This is EVOLUTIONARY science).
And if this "grandchildren keep grannies fit" thing would be true, other mammals with many grandchildren would exhibit post-reproductional longevity as well. but they dont.

Question two is answered above

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM

Could it just be that having children makes us want to outlive the buggers for revenge?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 02:02 AM

If I didn't know my grandma I wouldn't know anything about my roots. My parents were very hard working, middle class people who just wanted to be 'normal' Americans. It was grandma who clued me into my ancestry and imparted her values and her wisdom. She also handed down the traditions.

Maybe thats why they live so long. They have so much to pass on to us.

The Chinese have their family system down to an economic science. They don't even need a social security system. Grandma earns her keep by babysitting and cooking. She and Grandad also control the investments. Mom and Dad work. Mom and Dad also get to go out alot because the babysitter is always home. No wonder there is very little divorce.

d

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:12 AM

What use are they? Continuity, thats what.
SWMBO and I were discussing a TV programme about the kids of the baby boomers (they had a name for them) and their demands for immediate gratification and all the other things that are wrong with them (what a novel plaint) and WE came to the conclusion that one of the best things a kid could have was a Gran, someone who was an expert childraiser, whose morals were formed in a different era, and who was respected by everyone respectable.
One of the troubling things about being a parent is the uncertainty of this childrearing game. SWMBO and I don't know enough, and all the people we can ask are professional experts who are doing it for a living, not for the loving. Wish our son had a Gran.
I don't think we are doing too bad, but it would be nice to get a REAL expert opinion, an involved one.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:41 AM

Hmm... One grandma handed down a genetic heart condition and an increased chance of breast cancer and the other provided me with a gaggle of grasping, gossiping, vindictive and selfish relatives... an indication of which ~ when my middle aunt discovered her mother probably dead in bed one morning, she phoned an ambulance and her sisters and my father. The eldest sister arrived before the ambulance and was going round the house putting notes on the furniture, dividing it between her three daughters, before her mother had even been pronounced. When my father arrived, she told him he wasn't legitimate so wasn't entitled to anything (we did get something - all the bits of tat left over that they didn't want....). When my father died, the same sister told my mother, at his funeral, that she didn't need the greenhouse and that they'd take it off her hands.


Having said that, my nice grandma taught me to sew.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:19 AM

I use mine as a draft excluder. Justlay them on the floor behind a drafty door and HEY PRESTO works wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:25 AM

Although many catters might not realise my gorgeous Linda (Essex Girl) is a grandmother (twice over). I find plenty of uses for her - it's very lonely in bed without her !

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:54 AM

Congratulations, Dave, and give my best regards to gorgeous Linda!

Cheers
Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:15 AM

mine was brilliant, lovely, fab, funny, grumpy and intelligent and I miss her dearly.

:-(

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:37 AM

well, as a grandma of nine days, i am working half days, travelling to my daughter's home on the other side of sydney (1 1/2 hours there and the same again back) and spending mornings with her (at her request). My daughter is recovering from a caesarian delivery. I have been helping hold the baby, walk the baby, burp the baby, we all go for walks together, (and the dog tags along) also making food, cleaning up, and its good fun. I see myself as a support to my daughter and am doing things her way. baby Rosie is beautiful and we are having a lot of fun. it is a good excuse to spend time together, and is time I enjoy and value.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:25 PM

'er mother is good at ironing, babysitting & flight testing stealth broomsticks!

But bless 'er she does do an awful lot for us so we are lucky really.

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: What's the use of grandma's?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:45 AM

Freda and Skipy, that is exactly what I meant.