I walked out of session

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:45 AM

Guest, memyself - surely, if you view the session as 'yours' and don't 'give a damn about the punters', all you are doing is engaging in a different activity in a pub, which is self-absorbing - much like playing darts or dominoes - in that it gives you pleasure, but isn't designed to necessarily engage or involve anyone outside the participating group.

The difference being, though, that the other users of the room (ie those who have gone to do something else) MIGHT find that your activity impinges on THEIR ability to use the room to do whatever it is that gives them pleasure - even if that is just watching telly.

In those circs, the landlord is going to have to decide what ambience he wants to create in his pub, or which group makes him th emost money.

Having live music on isn't necessarliy a money spinner - especially if the musicians aren't, by their own admission, there to entertain. It's fine if the landlord has an otherwise empty bar, or side room, but if another group, who is likely to drink more, decide they want to use it....

If all musicians want to do is play, essentially, to themselves, why isn't someone's front room, with a few bottle-conditioned beers, an appropriate venue?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:04 AM

Soldier boy, do you enjoy
Good order in the session?
Does noise and talk force you to walk
And trigger your aggression?
Then go back with your regiment, get pleasure from the songs,
Playing with your privates and fiddling with your gongs.

Solder boy, do you enjoy
Beer and morris dancing,
Act the prat in a flowery hat
And call it life enhancing?
Morrismen from Huddersfield should stay well out of sight,
They all wear ladies' underwear and don't know how to fight.

Soldier boy, I don't enjoy
Weading what you wite
Your wantings and your wavings
Are Widiculous and twite.
Your wamblings are wevealing and you weally are quite barmy,
The highest wanking officer to gwace the Bwitish army.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,Wild Rover
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

I walked out of a session I used to frequent,
The noise was appalling, me patience was spent.
I'd asked them for order, they answered me Nay!
Such music as yours we can get any day.

And it's no nay never, no nay never no more,
Will I play in that alehouse, no never no more.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Shaneo
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:10 AM

I find that a good mix of songs/tunes goes down much better that sticking to one particular form of music when you are trying to be inclusive and get the crowd going , but for the most part stick to what you know best.
There was a time we wouldn't sing songs like 'The Town I Loved So Well' or Dirty Old Town' and The Fields Of Athenry , but if that's what they want to hear then do them .
Watch what songs get people singing and over time you get to know what they like.
I know I may get some stick for admitting this but we can go from playing Buddy Holly to Elvis and back to 'Take Me Home To Mayo' and not loose credibility [if that's the right word]

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

The Dinosaurs all died off because they were unable to cope with a changing invironment. Is that what's happening to us?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM

Blowzabella - You're right; I had somewhat lost sight of the question at hand, that of the TV turned up, etc., and was just talking in a general way. In fact, I WAS talking about simply "engaging in a different activity in a pub", as you put it, so I don't have any disagreement with what you're saying. I would add, however, that I have known of a number of instances where that particular activity has added considerably to the custom of a drinking establishment, to the point where the deadest night of the week has become the busiest. But clearly that's not always going to be the case, and it's the publican's call. Well, it may be the musicians' call, depending what their goal is: in the instance of one tremendously "successful" Wednesday night pub session I used to occasionally attend, it became such an attraction, and the place became so busy and frenetic, that the musicians turned down the offer of weekly payment, packed up their instruments, and found a quieter pub ... Strange but true!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM

"The Dinosaurs all died off because they were unable to cope with a changing invironment. Is that what's happening to us?"

Good point Kendell. Perhaps all the dinosaurs nned to do it find the proper habitat. Even we dinosaurs can flourish if the location is right.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 10:13 AM

Yes Wesley - Location Location Location

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:24 AM

Not the tar pits!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM

"Is that what's happening to us? "

It's what happening to people like you, we hope

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM

Guests first please

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM

Be fair. The Dinosaurs probably died off because the place got blown up.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM

When I invited some of my work colleagues to a pub I was playing in two years ago, they took one look at the clientele and promptly re-named the place "Jurassic Park".

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:11 PM

I would never go to a place where they played rock, rap or jazz. Why would anyone go where they play folk if they don't care for it? If you don't like old lizards, stay out of Jurassic Park.
When you come to the mudcat you know that it is dedicated to Folk and blues. If you don't like folk or blues, why are you here?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:35 PM

Gulliver's post reminded me of an occasion when I took a friend to the Numeralla folk festival; at the time this festival was like an extended week-end-long session. She was an artist (not music) who'd never been involved with the folk scene, let alone been to a folk festival. For almost the whole of the weekend I didn't see her. At the very end of the Sunday she ran into me, excited at what she'd been drawing.

"Such wonderful faces! They all look so      lived in!"

I've relished the description ever since, even though I could be a dinosaur.

McGrath took my "Canberra, at the time dominated by extreme middle classes" to task.
I had meant to imply that Canberra at the time was extremely middle class but haste got in the way. When I first arrived in Canberra (1964) there was no public nightlife to speak of. The 'city' was socially organised into "the diplomatic corps", "the university" and "the public service"; if you weren't integrated into one of these you could have a lonely time of it. There was no working class; all the cleaners lived in Queanbeyan, a town across the border in NSW, and travelled to and from work in special buses. The "industrial area" of the ACT was restricted to Fyshwick and there were no old aged pensioners visible.

The place had improved markedly by the mid70s, and the folk scene (mostly the Monaro Folk Soc) was a major part of that improvement. And I regard it as a fact rather than a criticism that most of us in the scene at the time were middle class. Even (especially?) me, a regular blow-in from south of the border, where I was in my element among some of the more assertive representatives of the workers that the middle class loved to patronise.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM

No I wasn't taking you to task Rowan - I was just musing about the different things that "extreme middle class" could mean.

I mean, typically, protest movements against nuclear weapons, for example, get put down as "middle class".   And in America when politicians talk about the "middle class" they clearly are including a lot of people who would strongly object to being described as "middle class", if they lived back in Europe.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Slag
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

Well, I've read enough of the thread and got the drift so I'll weigh in with my tupence. What the heck is the matter with the pub owner? Is he running a three ring circus or a pub. He has a choice to make and hopefully one that appeals to the clientele he wants to serve: one or the other, or separate rooms! Some saloons have arcade games but they are in their own area, Big screen TV In its own area WITH APPROPRIATE BAFFLING.

What a gift music is and how fortunate to hear a live performance. Any fool can get snockered and watch TV, at home. Its much safer for us all if its done that way. How rude! Right you were to walk out. They don't deserve live entertainment and you certainly don't deserve the disrespect that was heap upon you.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM

Having read through this thread , a lot of codswallop has come out , as well as the odd bit of good sense !
What it boils down to is , IF you are being paid to play in a pub , you have made a commitment to 'entertain'
IF on the other hand , a group of musicians and singers have , with the agreement of the bar/pub management arranged to have a 'session'
in the pub and the customers are happy with the music , a degree of politeness is required , in that the barman should NOT turn up the volume of the TV or Juke box . IF said barman persists , then the musicians (In MY opinion) should take their music elsewhere .
By the same token , a group of musicians playing 'for fun' in a pub
should always consider the regulars , and (if possible) do any of the
songs that the regulars request .
In MY book a session is INCLUSIVE , not exclusive .
And a 'performer' who abuses another performer in a public forum is not worth responding to !

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:34 PM

Grand, Leadfingers--couldn't have put it better myself!

However, let's not delve too deeply into the meanings of
to 'entertain', a 'session', a 'performer',

lest Pandora's box be re-opened!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:50 PM

Good points Leadfingers.
It is all about getting the balance right and being sensitive to the needs of others. It should be "inclusive" in the majority of situations but of course you will always find the minority that don't give a damn and are exclusive and often go out of their way to be almost hostile to the regulars/punters.

I have seen this many times when regulars are listening in and enthusistically clap at the end of a tune only to have the musicians blatantly CRINGING at the applause and therefore give out the message that they don't give a toss and would rather they just went away and didn't invade their space.
That is rude and ignorant. It is some kind of "We are proffesionals/prima donnas" sort of scenario and we belong here and you don't.
So long as this continues it gives the whole folk scene a bad name and bad news travells fast.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Beer
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 09:51 PM

Leadfingers.
Thank you , thank you. The thread should end on your wise contribution.
Beer

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

It's too bad that a whole group of people can be judged by the actions of a few pillocks, but that's life. If I judged all Canadians by one certain piss ant that would be a shame, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 12:02 PM

Just like if he judged all wankers by your example

That would be an insult to wankers everywhere

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Don't look now folks but I think it's back.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM

Well, consider yourself well and truly insulted, Guest.

I would just leave him to it, Kendall. The few scraps of comfort he gets trying to mix with people outside an institution makes it all worthwhile. Consider it you Christmas gift to the underprivaleged.

DtG

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:25 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:17 AM

"Consider it you Christmas gift to the underprivaleged."..............who can't spell!!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:30 AM

It's the thought that counts.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM

At least spelling mistakes can be corrected - not so the mistakes made by ignorance.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:53 AM

I hope old George W. is reading your words of wisdom.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,myself
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:44 AM

Is everybody walking out of the thread now?
Must be catching!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself (formerly known as memyself)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM

Clarification: the previous post is not by me (meself/memyself); it's by someone obviously trying to cash in on my fame with a subtle variation on my name, sort of a tribute-poster, I suppose ...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,myself
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM

I'm just trying to be myself, meself.(formerly known as memyself)

Apologies.

I'll go and be someone-else, even though I was always told to try and be myself.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:41 PM

Excellent decision, yourself; remember, free advice is worth what you paid for it. Well, I guess I'll tell my legal team to go back to the bench for awhile. I hope you understand that I must be vigilant in protecting my brand name; the consumer is fooled so easily ...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:46 PM

(Warning: thread drift ahead!).

"And in America when politicians talk about the "middle class" they clearly are including a lot of people who would strongly object to being described as "middle class", if they lived back in Europe."

McGrath: Will you expand on this? I'm not certain which particular "lot(s) of people" you're refering to, and I'm curious.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:47 PM

Become a member - that way there is no doubt about who is posting!

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM

I'll have the clerical branch get right on that. But it does take time. There's always protocol, and then this one's away on holidays; that one's on maternity leave again, and on and on ...

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Declan
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM

Meself (formerly known as memyself), were you once part of the well known group Memyself and I, before 'I' walked out of session?

Back to the thread (I've been engaging in pre-yuletide madness for the last few days), the best that can be said that it is almost impossible to generalise on these things. What constitues as session tends to vary from pub to pub, let alone from country to country.

Shaneo chose not to stay in a session where it was clear that the staff working in the bar were not showing respect for the music. He was perfectly enitled to do that. If he was getting paid to play music in the session, that would have been a different matter. You might think that it would be odd for a pub to book and pay musicians to play on a given night and then have a telly blaring so the music can't be heard, but I've seen it happen many times.

Publican's are free to allow singing or music in their pubs if they wish or not if they don't. If they choose not to, then the musicians can find another pub to play in.

Most socialising in Ireland is done in pubs, although this is beginning to change ("Staying in is the new going out") so it is not unusual that a group of musicians who want to get together for a tune would go to a pub to do so. They are not there to entertain the other customers in the pub, unless they have been employed to do so. It is often the case that some if not all of the others will be entertained by what the musicians are doing, and its great when that happens.

If the customers want to ask for a particular song and join in with it thats fine by me, if they ask in a resonable way. (Getting pestered by drunks is an occupational hazard of pub musicians, and I try my best not to encourage that sort of behaviour). But in a situation where the level of requests substantially alters the nature of the session, like turning a tunes session into a sing-song, the musicians have a right to call a halt to this, if they are unhappy about it.

As for musicians repeating tunes, this too depends on the situation. I've heard great musicians repeat the same tune ten times, never playing the same way twice and found it fascinating, I've heard tunes in sessions where twice is too often. Hogging the limelight in a session is bad behaviour, unless you are paid to keep the session going (as is often the case) or everyone else in the session is quite happy to have one or two musicians dominate the session and join in with the bits they know.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:57 AM

"Meself (formerly known as memyself), were you once part of the well known group Memyself and I, before 'I' walked out of session?"

Nope - that's another one I'll have to have the legal team look into -

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

I don't know that it is as prevalent these days but as recently as the 60s there were a considerable number who would describe themselves as "Upper middle class", and look down on the middle classes (and, worse, the lower middle classes) as the sort of people who would put three plaster flying ducks in a row.

The middle classes were ghastly people like the social climber Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced bouquet). They probably went to grammar school (cringe) and could not speak properly.

The Upper middle classes had gone to public school, preferably for more than one generation. Often they were professionals (lawyer, doctor, dentist, military, civil service, vicar, usually not priest because the Upper middle classes were usually not Roman Catholic (apart from those who went to Downside). Some were Jewish. There were some who had displayed an unfortunate taste for art or music at university and become rather bohemian, like Nick Drake. There were very few non-English, usually only those from an equivalent or better foreign milieu who had been educated at Oxford (for some reason usually not Cambridge) who spoke impeccable Queen's English.

Above them were the county set and minor gentry. They (or close relatives) had inherited landholdings.

Above them were the aristocracy - the holders of inherited titles (or the close relatives of such).

"Society" - as in "The Society pages" was different again and did include foreigners a significant proportion of whom or whose families were Greek and owned ships, and eminent families who had colonised the colonies but now had funny accents like South African or Australian.

Apart from the lower middle class, they would all have been horrifed or offended baldly to have been called "Middle Class".

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:22 AM

In this country the class you are in depends not on your education, but on your income. The almighty dollar.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 10:59 AM

Thanks for the explication, Richard. The whole business leaves me feeling a little ... queasy.

"the sort of people who would put three plaster flying ducks in a row"

How many plaster flying ducks would the "Upper middle class" put in a row?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM

The "Upper middle class" would blast them off the wall with a twelve bore. The ducks that is.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 12:39 PM

I don't know. My inflatable moose head was considered the height of bad taste until BatGoddess discovered it in a recent issue of a decorating magazine. Apparently he is now chic and I am upper middle class.
What has any of this to do with walking out of a session?

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 01:37 PM

Anyone with breeding wouldn't ask that question.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:03 PM

In England today class is mostly about quality of speech.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,just another Guest
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:11 PM

"Anyone with breeding wouldn't ask that question."

That's why I didn't ask.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:06 PM

Anyone can have a posh accent, but not everyone can feign a white skin and get away with it (e.g. Michael Jackson). Anyway I thought 'Blair's Britain' was all about moving towards a classless society.

I've never walked out of a session as long as there was a pint in my hand.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

Sorry Guest, but you really can't fake proper speech. Not to one who knows.

Subject: RE: I walked out of session
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

"What has any of this to do with walking out of a session?"

You haven't studied the posts closely enough - typical upper-middle-lower-nouveau-parvenu-johnny-come-lately-landed-landless-minor-gentrified-blue-blooded-artistocratic-well-bred-with-no-background-public-grammar-school-Oxford-but-not-Cambridge-or-is-it-the-other-way-around behaviour, if I may so. Somebody mentioned the middle class; McGrath commented; I asked McGrath to extrapolate; McGrath kept mum; Richard Bridge picked up the ball, and the rest, as they say in certain over-educated under-bred circles, is, to use a vulgarly erudite term common to poseurs, history.