BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM

This thread, despite appearances, is not a copycat thread.   The "God Delusion" thread is just getting too hard to access--it's too long.

And I'm sure, since Mudcat atheists have had no problem with over 1900 posts of the "God Delusion", they'll have no problem with ""The Atheist Delusion".   After all, we've been assured by them that "delusion" is not in itself an attack--perish the thought.

It's also amazing how much of what can only be called historical tripe is written on Mudcat, especially, it seems, by atheists.

1) More people died as a result of religion than as the result of the Hitler, Stalin and Mao regimes.

Patently absurd.

There weren't enough people alive on the earth before the 20th century long enough to make this possible.




2)   Hitler "sucked up" to the Catholic Church.   

More drivel--this time endorsed by a non-atheist as well as the usual suspects.


It's baffling how many Mudcatters think they establish something as a fact by just stating it--or just by linking to a website.   Don't they ever read books about history?


From Hitler's Pope, by John Cornwell, a book which obviously theorizes that Pius XII was in fact "Hitler's Pope".

German Catholics opposed Hitler both before and after the Machtergreifung.   

p 108:   "By the turn of the decade" (end of 1920's) " in fact, Catholic criticism of the National Socialists was vehement and sustained in the press and from the pulpits"

What changed?   The Concordat, an spectacularly disastrous attempt by Pacelli, later Pope Pius XII, to negotiate a treaty with Hitler favorable to the Holy See.   

Even after the Concordat, not all German Catholics fell into line.

There's a lot more to say--but no more time.

However, it's about time Mudcatters start seeing things in shades of gray instead of jumping on the first cardboard villain that shows itself--especially when that approach conveniently supports the poster (usually an atheist") 's own prejudices.

I'm still, by the way, waiting for--anybody--to cite an atheist regime which has been successful and treated its own people well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

im sure the mudcat atheists must have read a lot at some time,but i wonder if they can find time between all these threads nowadays!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:52 AM

Seen any good badgers lately?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

I've stopped believing in atheism, I've become a nihilist now, but I stll can't be bothered attacking anyone else's beliefs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:37 AM

"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone". Gran Torino

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM

`I'm still, by the way, waiting for--anybody--to cite an atheist regime which has been successful and treated its own people well.`

Dang. That was written by one of my favourite all-time folks on Mudcat. Trust you`re well. Ron.

To answer your question, I would posit that Cuba answers your statement (or request). I won`t argue the level of poverty because that was basically caused by a US embargo. They have free health care which is a boon. I know something about the troubles encountered by Raoul, Fidel and Ernesto. The country isn`t rich by North American standards, but looking at the stock market lately, we ain`t doin`much better.

Peace :-) to you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:11 AM

Joe, I think that this is obviously a continuation of the an argument on another thread.

I object to the loaded word "delusion" on both this one and that one.

I would suggest that you Mudadmins combine the two and change the title to something accurate and neutral such as "Atheist and Non-atheists debate." Or "Is there a God?" or "Is there NO God?" Or "The Existence of God?"

---

Since the other thread has almost 2000 posts, it seems to be a good time for another thread. Yes, you can (and should) view long threads in segments; but even so, a 2000-message thread is cumbersome. You're right that there's a question about the thread title - it took me a while to realize this was a different thread. "God Delusion"-"Atheist Delusion" — what's the difference? Still, why not? I've cracked down on thread titles that were pure political propaganda that didn't tell much about the contents of the thread, but this one surely makes it clear that it's another one of those religion/anti-religion threads. So, I see no reason to disallow this thread, although I've lost interest in participating in such discussions because it doesn't seem possible for Mudcatters on either side to get past their prejudices. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:27 AM

I long ago gave up arguing for or against an afterlife or a supreme being.

We'll all know soon enough who's right and who's wrong -- if anyone is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:34 AM

The posts could all be put into the last thread, but I don't think it's worth the effort of 1)transferring them, and/or 2) explaining YET AGAIN how to click on the number by the title or the little "(d)".

I don't think it's religion or the lack of it that makes people in power jerks. I think it's the power. I think religion is only an excuse, and anyone who thinks the whole world should be like them is only look for an excuse.

I also think these arguments are just excuses to beat up on willing participants. At least that's better than wars and killing innocents because they may not agree with you about whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

"I long ago gave up arguing for or against.... a supreme being".

Oh,Rapaire?

Have you not, at least once or possibly more times, suggested that you were such on Mudcat's biggest (size) thread?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM

Good points, Jeri

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:40 AM

Jeri,

I object to the word "delusion" as loaded, inaccurate, insulting and chosen to pick a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:43 AM

explaining YET AGAIN how to click on the number by the title or the little "(d)".

I'm willing to be that anyone interested in continuing these discussions know that already.

I don't know how much effort is involved but how does it compare to policing two cat fights instead of just one?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

The chipmunk didn't show up this morning. I sure hope he's okay.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:04 PM

Here's Jacko again! I object to the word "delusion" as loaded, inaccurate, insulting and chosen to pick a fight.

Anyone who would like to see through Jack's risible inconsistencies might just like to refer to the amusing tirade of insults levelled by him on "that other thread." For your amusement I collated them into one post, near the end of the thread. I won't quote it again. Suffice to say that, to put it mildly, he's the last person in the world who should be whingeing about loaded, inaccurate, insulting stuff aimed at picking fights.

Yours less insanely than Wacko Jacko likes to think,

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

I like the name of this thread. On the other thread and elsewhere, I have stated that before we get too hung up over words, we need to know whether, when debating, you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me." Personally, for the record, I am in the latter camp.

As interpretations of the God concept are all man made, yet are portrayed as being other than man made, I am exceedingly comfortable with the notion "God delusion." If you believe any of it literally, as opposed to a convenient moral code or social outlet, of course you are delusional. But don't get hung up about it. I believe in Sheffield Wednesday, but accept we are in the old fizzy pop league now, and could never beat Man Utd over 90 mins, (other than an act of G... oh forget it.)

But a delusional atheist? mmm.. As God doesn't exist, I am not sure that is a term I could accept for anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

you mean atheism as a positive stance or atheism as in "religion is nothing to do with me."
Actually, I don't think I'm in either camp. It's next to impossible to avoid religion having at least some influence on one at some stage, so I'm not in the latter. As for atheism being a stance, I don't see it that way. It's simply that God is a notion for which I think there is no credibility. If I have a stance at all, it's all about simply asking anyone who declares their belief to produce evidence. Not witness, hearsay, visions, tradition or the fact that billions of people happen to share the same delusion. Real evidence. Without evidence, God has just got to be a delusion as default until someone comes along with the evidence. If a shrug is a stance, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Sigh. Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.
At least there is still the sensible thread, albeit long.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:44 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:13 PM

I don't think it's religion or the lack of it that makes people in power jerks. I think it's the power. I think religion is only an excuse, and anyone who thinks the whole world should be like them is only look for an excuse.

Part agree and part disagree there.

On the people in power, I think it is a spot the difference game. If we were all UK football supporters, WWIII could be created by he supports Liverpool and I support ManU

On the other part. I think there is a desire for anyone with strong beliefs (including atheist ones) to put those beliefs forward. An excuse, no. I wish I could properly find Christ. I could wish you could too... I could wish others could too... but whatever happens or doesn't has to come in its own way. One can not make anything. It is not something I or anyone else can dictate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:23 PM

I think, on occasion.

These types of threads bring to mind the following: You (whoever you are) have a right to your beliefs to do with a supreme being or a lack thereof. And in the same way, you also have a right to keep it to yourself. If that statement has offended anyone, so be it (that`s the polite way of saying tough shit).

I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either. My beliefs to do with this topic are private, a position I wish others would adopt.

I dream lots. Say goodnight, Gracie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:35 PM

Guest 999: "I don`t see that having a supreme being has particularly helped the human race, but not having one hasn`t helped either..."

Yeah, what's the difference if one is too self absorbed, to pay attention, anyway. It just means, that perhaps, they are out of step, marching to a different drummer...then arguing about the tempo!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

The woodpecker is here anyway. That's good.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:45 PM

Hey, GfS. I don`t know whether you saw the post I put (on some thread). I was asking how that music project you were working on at that time--about 7 or 8 moons ago--worked out. Well, I hope. I certainly understand if you can`t respond here. Just want you to know I wish you the best.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM

Quite well, thank you for asking. Working on another one now...more like a new arrangement of an older piece that is really cool. I'm trying to set up a thing where I can send stuff, but very anonymously.

Little Hawk: "The woodpecker is here anyway..."

Ah, Its Captain Hawk and the mystery of morning wood!

Grin, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

History is often not agreed upon. A lot depends upon whom you read.

Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South,
the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot
atrocities. Don't forget that Hirohito was into a form of Shintoism. Every war has had a religious component. Remember the Anti-Communist Christian Crusade?

Religious misinformation is a staple of propaganda to salve the guilty consciences
of the so-called "believers".

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:31 PM

The only historical religious war involving atheists was Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot but they only claimed to be atheists but in fact were lead by a political "theology". FreeThinkers don't subscribe to any political "theology". They are skeptics that question any ideology that demands adherence to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

"Vanity of vanities. All is vanity".

In other words, everything's a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

I think in pretty much every one of those cases it was a case of people with religions fighting wars for other reasons and the religion being used along with other inducements to rally support.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:37 PM

>>Obviously someone doesn't understand either the word atheism or the word delusion.<<

He understands.

He is just trying to pick a fight. As Dawkins was.

Er, I think Mrrzy was referring to your mate Ron, not me, Wacko. I could be wrong as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM

I would agree with that, Jack.

However...

People interpret these things strictly according to their own prior prejudices...they are generally either FOR or AGAINST religion, and they come to voice their prejudice yet again. They come to these threads for the same type of reason someone goes to a pornography site: to repeat past behaviour.

It's okay if you can see the funny side of it and not let it make you angry or mess up your day. That's why I'm worrying about the chimpmunk instead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:42 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

This gets heavy but,

Stringsinger, I have difficulty with free thinking these days as my own mind even though it is supposed to be logical has got so much wrong over the years.

I'd personally also have difficulty in free thinking as very personally I would like to submit to the power I believe is real.

Adherence is something I would try to do and have tried and failed to do...

But, yes I do see your point about "political theology" and I do not want to follow anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Once Ron Davies has decided to take any position in an argument, he becomes as immovable as a barnacle and as eternal as death and taxes. If we could get him to argue both sides, we'd have a perpetual motion machine. I'm used to it. I talk to him for as long as I find it amusing to do so, but not because I think it will achieve anything. It's just fun, that's all. Gives me a way to while a way the hours...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,999--that was me above. I have slapped my w
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

I like Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM

To be clear, I was talking about Ron Davies, who is clearly Steve Shaw's mate. I don't talk to either of them on these threads.

Heheh, nice flip, Jack. However, you should know that I'd rather smother my privates in honey and bring on the dancing ants than count Ron among my circle of mates. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM

I think Ron is fine. I have no problem with him as a person. But he is trying to pick a fight.

Shaw is happy to fight with him. On this thread and the others, they need each other and re the "mates."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:54 PM

I like Ron too. But I don't like the way he becomes totally snotty and intransigent when he's involved in a debate on some Mudcat thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:58 PM

Isn't calling someone "snotty" a little "snotty?"

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:03 PM

Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:05 PM

I didn't see the snot. Does it not photograph well?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

No Jack, he just can have snotty moods.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Duh.... He's a cat!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:18 PM

I've known cats all my life Jack. Know there get what they want from you ways, etc. but this one is especially snotty at times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:23 PM

"Over the years if you add up the Crusades, Auto-de-fes, religious wars (even being fought now), troubles in Ireland, Israel and the Palestinians, the purge by the Catholic Church over the Knights Templar, British history regarding Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots, the Holocaust (a religious war), the use of religion to encourage slavery in the American South, the rise of the K.K.K. (with the burning cross), and religious wars over every period of history (there has never been peace among religions), they eclipse Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot atrocities. . . ."

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: ragdall
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

Meet Worthy the Snot Cat

Worthy certainly does portray attitude, Jon. I'm glad to see he's still around and looking so well.

LH, maybe the munk has decided it's time to dig in for a long sleep? I hope it will turn up safe and sound when it's warmer.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:42 PM

That's an old pic, ragdall. He (as you know, a stray) wandered further after that pic and wound up with a bit of an ear chopped off (my own feeling is that it was a marking for ferals to indicate he was neutered by a vet/local cat group) before deciding that we actually did provide a good home for him. I was not sure if he would stay but he seems very well settled in spite of his snotty moods.

Not sure how to get back on topic from here...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, I think the chipmunk has stored up so many peanuts that's he's decided to just hole up now for the duration.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:07 PM

I would tend to ask "How many of these wars and atrocities were actually less about theological disagreements and more about secular power and economic advantage, with religion being a rationalization to cover the real goals?"

All of 'em, Don, every single one. I'm a rabid atheist (according to some), but I know that arguments that claim that things "are done in the name of religion" (or atheism, come to think of it) are generally eyewash. There are plenty of arguments against religion already that don't require bringing in holy wars and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:14 PM

We had a squirrel taking peanuts from a bird feeder this year. Didn't mind that. One of our 3 cats and I'm pretty sure it would have been Worthy got him though.

(btw Rags on pet numbers in case you remember who we had, don't know if you remember a pic of Bella our grey cat or of Misty the dog. Both had to be put down this year. Misty's heart problems got worse and worse and diuretics, etc. did not work Bella developed some form of quick spreading face thing I guess was a cancer)