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homage to Rise Up Singing

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


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WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 12:16 AM
Janie 29 Dec 08 - 12:17 AM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 12:19 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 12:31 AM
Joe Offer 29 Dec 08 - 02:50 AM
Peter T. 29 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM
M.Ted 29 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM
Roger in Baltimore 29 Dec 08 - 10:47 AM
katlaughing 29 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM
Deckman 29 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM
Stewart 29 Dec 08 - 12:14 PM
astro 29 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM
Peter T. 29 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM
goatfell 29 Dec 08 - 01:17 PM
goatfell 29 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM
Stewart 29 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM
PoppaGator 29 Dec 08 - 02:51 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM
Ref 29 Dec 08 - 04:12 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Lisa Null 29 Dec 08 - 05:51 PM
M.Ted 29 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 06:11 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM
CapriUni 29 Dec 08 - 06:23 PM
Deckman 29 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM
Ref 29 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM
Joe Offer 29 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM
Linda Goodman Zebooker 29 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM
Joe_F 29 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM
M.Ted 29 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 09:50 PM
Joe Offer 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 10:43 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 10:46 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 PM
Ron Davies 30 Dec 08 - 12:13 AM
M.Ted 30 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM
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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:16 AM

"This is the way some song circles work."

Sorry, I must have missed an example of that. The examples I've read have been of complaints about people bringing the book to "regular" sessions.   If it is an "exclusive" circle, then I think they are limiting themselves.   Did I miss specific examples of such events?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Janie
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:17 AM

Ron - thanks so much for your comments and cogent reflections. I love to sing, and am one of those many, many people with a decent voice and plenty of interest, but very, very little time to memorize lyrics.   I am essentially a non-musician. Additionally, over the past several years I notice that I have difficulty both memorizing new lyrics, or recalling lyrics that once I knew well. I prefer song circles and sing arounds that include both good musicians and people like myself, but will close up like a clam if it feels like the good musicians have no tolerance or interest welcoming the enthusiastic participation of people like me who have little time to devote to practicing to "perform" in a song circle.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:19 AM

Seattle Song Cirle, last I heard. It didn't start out that way.

I don't know who all goes to it now, but I have a pretty good idea of those who don't.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:31 AM

Thanks Don. If this is the one from the Seattle Folklore Society, this is what they have on their webpage about the monthly circles:

"We're just a bunch of folks who enjoy getting together to sing -- no particular expertise required (staying in key is nice, but you won't be shot if you don't). We sing mainly folksongs (your definition thereof), but you may hear almost anything at one time or another. We have no dues or other memberships requirements, though we are associated with the Seattle Folklore Society.
...
Once we get started, singing goes around the group in a circle. When your turn comes,you may choose to sing something, request a song from the group in general or from a specific person, or pass (and those--aside from those of common courtesy--are all the rules we have). We all join in on choruses and anything else we recognize. There's no official body of songs, though a lot of people bring Rise Up Singing (AKA "The Blue Book") or other songbooks. Some people accompany themselves on various instruments, some don't. "

Unless their rules have changed, it sounds like they are running a very nice community sing that is welcoming to all levels. They have set some general rules, but they do not seem to be dictating that the songs must come EXCLUSIVELY from the book.

I think Janie has given us some very good insight. It is people like Janie that really needs to be attracted and feel welcomed. From the song circles that I am familiar with, the idea of building a community of people who share an interest in song and enjoy the commmunal aspect of the event.

From the description of the Seattle Song Circle that I found on their webpage, I feel that this is a good model for most groups to follow.   Perhaps, as Don suggests, the rules have changed and they are exculsively using one book. That certainly changes the feeling - IF that is the case.   I'm not sure it is.

Sing for the song! Sing for the community. That is pure folk music, at least as close as we can get in this day and age. Partcipation, not performance!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:50 AM

As time goes on, fewer and fewer people sing, especially in the United States. We were singing Christmas carols at Mass this morning, and I knew every word of every verse by heart - but hardly anybody was singing along. Christmas carols, fer crissake!!! I thought we'd have the best community singing of they year, and it was well-nigh dead.

If we believe in folk music, I think we have an obligation to get the "folk" to sing. Everyone should make music - not just a chosen elite who do it for the money. I've found that Rise Up Singing helps nonsingers sing. Accomplished singers don't need it, and tend to show disdain for it. But hey, we have to do something to get those other people singing!!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM

I'm with Joe. I was at a caroling event the other night, and half the people there (who were younger) had never, ever, ever, sung with other people. They barely knew the carols (and that was mostly from supermarkets). By the end of the evening they were really into it -- lost their inhibitions, everything.

This lack of singing is some kind of terrible tragedy being wreaked on everyone.

But getting them going is really a kind of bliss to watch and be part of. I hope everyone would be in favour of this, RUS or no rus.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM

Peter and Joe are right--social singing has disappeared from our culture. Christmas carols were the last bastion, and that seems to be slipping fast.

I suppose that in its way, this fussing about RUS is a an acknowledgement of the fact that people sing so little that they no longer even know the words--but the whole "Seattle/San Francisco/Bedford Falls Song circle isn't good enough for the real singers anymore" discussion comes off as petty egoism.

In a way, it reminds me of the things that classical musicians used to be accused of saying about how folk songs were not real music, and that hoots were just an excuse for bad singing.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:47 AM

Open Mike,

The article mentions that a precursor to RUS was a white spiral bound book called Winds of Change. It was distributed informally. I picked up a copy some years ago at a yard sale or some where. I could tell right away from the art work and the way the songs were laid out that it was a precursor.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

I agree with Peter and Joe, too, though in our area there does seem to be, still, a good emphasis on singing in school, church, etc. and we have some good music programs/concerts of kids etc.

Janie, thanks for posting...I join you in what you said.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM

To M. Ted ... regarding your posting at 10:35 A.M. I AGREE with you completly. Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:14 PM

I agree that group singing seems to be disappearing from our culture. So let's do something about it. We should use our song circles to educate people in group singing. Start with RUS, it's a good resource for group singing. But then go the next step. Encourage people who use RUS to make the songs their own. Encourage them to actually learn the songs. Tell them about the background of the songs. Encourage them to learn new songs "not in the book."

RUS is not bad in itself. But it is just a beginning. Song circles should encourage growth in public singing. Growth to the point where we can leave the book at home and enjoy singing songs that we really know, songs we can call our own. That's the real enjoyment in singing.

Many song circles seem to be stuck in a rut. They never move beyond that first step. Many people come and sing the same song that they've never bothered to learn, and have to keep singing it word for word out of the book.

Folkies seem to have an aversion to leaders. But maybe we need people who can lead song circles so that people grow in their ability to sing. Education can be a good thing. And I think it can lead to more enjoyment in singing by everyone.

Maybe then we wouldn't have these silly arguments.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM

I am very new to the folk experience. I would find it intolerable if I felt that my poor expertise at singing or playing was being judged badly by the people that I get together with. I need to learn tunes and the music is the only way right now. If high ability is expected at a group sing or jam then I wish someone would say so that I could go away. Of course, I would not go back either. I would figure it's a closed club and outsiders are not welcome.

It is only prudence and politeness on my part not to take a lead position for song or playing now. It would be done badly on my part and would drag down the group. I am happy to be in the background, watching, learning, and enjoying. In time, with books, listening, and watching I'll learn and will take a stronger role.

As far as singing, it is hard to find places where to sing both in Tucson and in Los Angeles. If anyone knows where to find singing in either place please let me know, I would join. I would only hope that the group would be pleased that they are drawing out new people. I would also hope that the experienced hands would find joy in teaching and turning on a newbie...not judgement and condemnation. If that was the case, then I find no hope for that particular group...

astro


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

Perhaps we need guerilla folkies..... (They descend by night on a town and force people at gunpoint to sing.............)

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:17 PM

Do these people get paid at these 'performances' then it's a concert isn't.

what is so wrong about taking songbooks to sessions, I mean it is supposed to be informal, not according some people, then it's not a session then it's it it's a concert.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

oh another thing where is the rule book on folk muisc, and oes it say that you can not take a songbook to a club/session. until some can tell this i'll keep bringing my songbooks/song sheets to clubs/sessions


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

Ya, group "flok " singing is dying! The yung come in & see a bvunck of folks singing off & out of key, there's hardly any interaction & they all have their noses in a book & are having a hard time following each other without a good lead. NO WONDER!
I wouldn't be in a mind to want to join in either.

We have a great Friday night session. Tghere's no circle to take turns in, it's spontaneous, it's a jump in or if you haven't been heard from you get called on, some will bring in the words to something they're learning others who don't know songs will have the words to join in though that's not many & they'll share with the stragglers that just happen on to the pub sing by accident. But there are no books & there won't be any welcomed either. There are many who don't or can't (yet) lead a song & there are plenty that like Janie who are there for the singing but don't have alot to offer aside from their backing up the other singers. It depends on people like Janie, it depends on those who can't lead, it depends on those that can lead, it depends on a group that can carry off a continious flow, it doesn't mean that there's no dead air space, it means that there's a little verbal chit chat going back & forth some humor, some brief song discussion, some interplay between the singer & those not singing.
We get young'uns (they need to be old enough to walk into a bar unless there with their elders) who are shocked & delighted at the same time & want to come back as well as older folks too. BUT if there's a bunch who's noses are in books then the owner of the bar first is gonna toss the whole thing out because it's boring & boring doesn't sell booze, no one's gonna keep coming back & we'd lose all the good/strong singers & whose left to carry it on but those whose noses are in books.
Now we ghave plenty that just started coming in & they watched & as time went on they joined in the choruses that the came to know, some stayed there, that's all they wanted, some started to lean songs on there own & would once in a while try their hand at leading one or tow, some found that they wanted more & went on to expanding their rep & were pulled along or help out as they progressed, it took time, sorry for those that can't put in the time or energy for that but they'll needed & weclomed to play their part in support. SO this has gone on for over 25 yrs with no end in sight. This is also the format of the shanty session I go to which is again held in a waterfront bar/resturant every week & has grown to become quite an attraction. At the same place there's a session that couldn't get enough momention to keep itself going because,,,,,,, don't make me say it,,,,,,,it was boring with noses in papaer.
When a newbie is thinking I can't do it & then gets to see a strong siinger screw up, they get to see the singers recover from what they envisioned as a disaster & see that it's not the "end all" to screw up, they learn as they go but you learn as you "do" & "watch" & "listen" not as you read.
Thanks Roin for your kind words above, please next time introduce yourself to me I don't konw what you look like. AT those sessions at Mystic do you believe that those sings would be attended if people were singing out of books or off sheets of paper, all those singers aren't performers, many are just like you festival goes & those sings can't happen with just the good or strong siongers, they need those that can't lead & just as much, they need those that just listen, singers singing for just each other sucks! It's just as boring as singers reading at each other. The sings that happen at the Getaway (for those that have been there) are the same. You got a song you want to lead at a sing, run over it a few days in advance before you get there, if you don't know it don't sing it. Not mny of us "just happen upon a sing" by coincidence.
If you can't keep it from being boring than you don't deserve to keep it at all, you give the rest of the singing community a bad & boring name. It's no wonder that young folks have such a bad view of folk singing. My daughter brings her college friends & so does my son brough his rock bandmate a few weeks ago, "cool", but I know they wouldn't have embrassed themselves by initing their friends to a sing where there were books & songs were being "schooled".

If you like a sing where RUS is all the fashion, that's great, enjoy yourselves, if you are happy with a half filled thimble who should detere you but if you want more you'll have to go elsewhere, you'll have to go where the singers go. Look, you want real Chinese food don't go to the corner take out, go where you know the real Chinese people go when they want real Chinese food & when you get there jsut oder what you see you like around you that they're eating, don't bother to read a menue that you're not gonna understand.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:01 PM

I often go to my Irish session. It's an intermediate level session, but very tolerant of beginners and everyone is encouraged to start a tune - in fact we go around like a song circle.

Occasionally a beginner comes and brings a music stand and music. We tolerate that (unlike many other sessions). But after a few times the newbie stops bringing the music because of all the hassle of setting up a stand in a limited spaced, and because learning tunes needs to be done by ear (the dots don't really indicate how the tune is played). Soon the newbie is learning tunes by ear and becomes more comfortable about starting tunes.

After a while the whole session learns a particular repertoire and everyone enjoys playing together tunes that they all know.

Often someone will bring a new tune to the session. They will play it solo to begin with, but if it's a good tune others will pick it up and it becomes part of the group repertoire. New experienced players are also welcome as they bring new tunes to the session.

I think this could be a good model for a singing session or song circle.

Now other Irish sessions here are not very welcoming to new players, and that's too bad because they no longer nurture the growth of the music. They tend to be elitist and exclude all but the best players.

On the other hand, some beginning sessions never get beyond using music on stands and playing dreadfully slow. That's also not good, as any aspiring players will soon leave to join more advanced sessions.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM

"AT those sessions at Mystic do you believe that those sings would be attended if people were singing out of books or off sheets of paper, all those singers aren't performers, many are just like you festival goes & those sings can't happen with just the good or strong siongers, they need those that can't lead & just as much, they need those that just listen, singers singing for just each other sucks!"

Barry, I think the session at Mystic is a bit different. The music that is sung at these sessions, from what I've witnessed, have been sung by those who are afficiandos of the genre. from my experience, the audience at Mystic tends to be filled by those who have a deeper knowledge of the genre, whereas a festival like Old Songs or Falcon Ridge - dedicated fans though they are, are not as invested in the genre, perhaps because there are many diverse genres of "folk" represented at those events. A Sea Music Festival is a different entity.   A Mystic sing is very different from a sing at Old Songs, where you do have people singing from sheets of music on occasion. The "noses in paper" work for the type of song circle that exists at Old Songs.   

While I have not been to Getaway, I think that is more of a "clique" as well - and I am not using that term in a negtiave fashion.   There is nothing wrong with people who have a stronger interest in the music from getting together for a more "elite" sing. And the same for someone like yourself Barry, you should be singing in a session that is more challenging for you.   While you might consider the "nose in the paper" sessions as boring, the fact that they exist and have some degree of success probably shows that others do NOT find it boring and enjoy the session.   

The problem that I think we are discussing are the "other" sessions - such as the one mentioned in Seattle. I do not want to keep repeating my earlier remarks, but these are sessions that are more "public" and I think there is enough evidence shown in this very thread to support the OCCASIONAL use of books and sheets - IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS - without inhibiting the success of the song circle.   

I keep repeating this, but the idea is to help EDUCATE and PERPETUATE - and that requires patience and understanding. It also requires acknowledgement of the age we live in and the difference that exist in technology and lifestyle from the days of the revival.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:51 PM

Although I'm not at all "new to the folk experience" like astro, I too feel like a bit of an outsider in this discussion, since I've never rewally been part of any folk-singing community, nor have I much experience at all with the kind of group-singing sessions under discussion here.

My only knowledge of "Rise Up Singing" comes from having mail-ordered a copy from CL Martin a couple of years ago. I needed to buy a replacement pickguard, priced at about $3-4, and the minimum order was $25, so I got a copy of this book I had begun hearing about via Mudcat.

I've browsed through its many pages on occasion, and usually come across a song or two I was glad to find. In some cases, I will have forgotten the lyrics to an old familiar melody (or perhaps half-forgotten the chorus and never really known all the verses), in other cases, I might even learn something new from the rudimentary chord progressions.

I've been pretty amazed and sometimes quite pleased to find songs I never would have considered to be "folk," including many B-way show tunes and fake-book-type "standards." I've also been put off, even horrified, by some of the recently-written "PC" material that many folks here have alluded to.

(Aside:) If there should ever be a chance that at any future time I'll be tempted to sing "It's Only a Wee Wee," I am asking God, right here and right now, to please strike me dead immediately! In fact, the same holds true for just about any selection in the "Men" section of RUS, with the single exception of Paul Simon's "The Boxer" (which I find is more properly played in the key of C, not G).

But anyway, back to the question of these singing sessions with which so many of you seem to have experience: what about instrumental accompaniment?

Do 50-60 people show up with 50-60 guitars? I wouldn't think that would be practical. Is all the singing a capella? Perhaps so, but probably not in every instance. I would imagine that there might be instances where a single piano-player might "lead" a group, but such a situation would minimize the degree to which the experience was truly a "group" effort ~ and also, such instrumentation is not characteritically "folk." Maybe there are regular meetings where a small number of designated "leaders" bring their guitars, banjos, etc., while the majority of the participants simply sing without playing instruments of their own.

I would imagine that sessions or "jams" where most if not all of the group bring instruments and play them would fall into a whole other category, where the question of whether or not to use a "hymnal" would not be a primary concern. (I'm sure there would be other controversies, of course.)

Have I asked enough questions to provoke another round or two of debate?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM

Sorry Ron, but these are the types of session I know & love, they are public, they are open & they are book free. I haven't been to Old Songs in long time but when I did there were no books there either, at least that I remember. When I go to a festival or sessions, again they are not elite or private sessions, I hate closed sessions, they too suck, stuck up snobs mostly. On Jan 4th there's a pub session (in NYC) that's been going around on Facebook created by a Mudcatter it's called Exceedingly Good Song Night. and it's an open monthly sing, I doubt you'll find books there but I do believe you'll have a good time & a good sing. Ron, I'm not talking about elite sessions or parties, it's not about good or strong singers, it's about good & strong sings & in order for it to be good it needs voices & they don't have to be good or strong just willing to soar. It all boils down to personnal taste in the end but if you want a sing that's to die for you won't find it at a library setting, it's to formal when you really need to let it all hang down, loosen up & let it fly, you can't be real when you're nose is in a book, you can't throw caution to the wind, toss your head back & howl when you nose is in a book, you won't see anyone letting their hair down when you're to busy buring your nose in a book. That weekly shanty sing is no different than the Mystic one that you say is special because it attend by those that follow the genre or by "afficiandos of the genre", it's attended by beginners as well as 'just a few strong or good singers', matter of fact most of the folks there that sing have only been around folk music or sea music for a short time, thouggh there are a few who've been about for ages. This session is attend as I said by a lot of those who haven't been around for a long time as well as a lot of onlookers & waterfront characters that just happen to enjoy hearing songs that are from the places that are familar to them & it's usually a rip roaring session, againg with a spattering of paper sheets, even a few books but no RUS & no noses are buried in them. It's all a matter of what you're after. Mystic is about the only festival I can afford to go to these days but it's not the only sing I find that remarkable. Hopefully places like Facebook & MySpace will help to create more places that will be spots for folkies to sing in. I know there's another monthly sing that just started in the Boston area that's been put up on MySpace but I just went to the first one we'll have to see how that's gonna play out, so far so good I didn't see much there in the way of books, a few sheets of paper but time will tell.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:12 PM

Loved your response PoppaGator! There is some REALLY cringe-worthy stuff in RUS. Proper key depends a lot on your vocal range, as G works best for me. I look at the chord plat to see how many are involved, as any 3 chord (and most 4 chord) songs can be easily re-worked.

Barry, I think you're too heavily invested in this "elite" determination, what with your demands for memorization and "learning from one's betters." I guess you and I just won't hit the same groups.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

Probably not Ref. I wasn't the one who came up with the "elite" term, that was Ron's. Ron & Ref when I go to Rome I do as the Romans. I was at the Christmas gathering that I mentioned above. I don't sing Christmas songs at all, I know only one that I can lead, so I was perfectly content to listen in on what others were doing & to join in on the choruses when I could and lend myself to the group but when there's a bunch singing from books & can't follow never mind lead & I can't even lend then you can keep it, & there's not even any chat except "that was nice, now turn to page 59", it's not fun, it's boring, if my son had been there he'd have raked me over the coals.
If this was a sponsered sing by a folk song society it should've been supported by the singers of that society it was opened & public & advertised, if it's too boring for it's own members to support it then there's something wrong with the sing & the society itself, not me. I don't go to dance when I'm not gonna at least enjoy watching others dance if I can't. And I can't dance anymore due to broken feet but I do enjoy watching good dancers dance. But I'm not gonna go to a dance to watch the dancers trip over themselves, it might be laughable but not for me, I want it to be enjoyable, I don't want to study dancers, I want to enjoy the beauty of the dancers dancing & having a ball, I'll go to a dancing school if I want to see dancers trip over themselves & learn. Yet I can go to a dance festival (NEFFA) & watch all levels of dancers, dancing together enjoying themselves while not feel as if I'm at dance class watching the teacher teach. But I'm not gonna attend a sing where it's a reading class, no thanks, I got better things to do & enjoy with my time, I'd rather be watching mold grow on bread. If you prefere to go to a session where everyone reads from a book, please be my guest. When I go to a sing & see that it's all book types I wonder where's the rounding out of the group, where's the ones who don't do books, where's there weak you need strong, where there's bad you need good, where there the unsure you need the sure footed. You can't have it all one way, either way. You need to have everyone but you don't need books to have that. The books themselves aren't the problem, the problem is in the folks that "THINK" they need books to get by with. When we all join in together the only support anyone needs comes from each other not from books, that's where the lift comes from. It's just as nice to pull or to be pulled along in a sing as it is to push or be be pushed as it is ti glide along at where ever pace you choose that way everybody's going in the same direction & headed for the same place, even if they don't get there at the same time or by the same way. If you want a roadmap to go by then go sing in a bookstore or library, stay out of way of others.

Poppagator, one of the sings I go to on a regular basis there's a mix of songs & tunes, generally it's about 50/50 depending if it's attended by the same amount of singers as musicians, some nights it goes more one way than the other. Another session I go to there are no tunes but some folks bring instruments. Among the roughly 50 that go there for the music (not just the drink) I'd say 25 sing (actually many more mumble & sing along under their breath) of that maybe 5 or 6 or 7 bring along an instrument, there are very few really strong singers at this one, just a lot of mildmannered singers that like to sing (without books). The festival sessions at Mystic or the getaway or the like are mostly a capella and are generally packed solid with singers & with those that only sing as back up or on chourses but they're along side of those that don't sing at all but love to listen or mumble. They are not as Ron says all "afficiandos".
The Irish sessions I go to there's not much singing anymore 25 yrs ago there was loads of sessions with singing as well as dancing & recitations & stories but these days in the Boston area there's maybe at least 2 different going on nightly & most don't encourage singing or anything else aside from one & there you are mostly called upon to sing & you'd better be right on with your song & have it down otherwise it'll be a cold day in hell before you're called upon again, if the crowd likes you you can sing as you please. This is an 'old timers session where some of the musicians are those that have been playing since coming over & playing in the "Dudley St sessions" from the 40's & 50's. The musicians are all pretty good at that session though they welcome warmly & very much encourage those that are not up to speed to & they have a slow session that proceeds the regular session this session is different they play at an up paced but not fast space, other sessions where it's almost they pro don't like this session as much because it's speed does not exclude the slower players but those slower players evedientually catch up quick enough, no music stands though. I prefere the sessions that are welcoming & include everyone who can do, to do. As I said there a slow session for those that are beginning/learning or can't yet do.
This is also the largest session I've ever seen, it's regularly attend by about 30 musicians early in the evening, if there's a festival in town 50 & musicians sitting on the side waiting for an opening.

Barry


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Subject: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:51 PM

I just posted a Diary on Daily Kos that talks about my mixed feelings about Rise Up Singing. Do I have a copy? Yes. Do I use it? Yes. Have I gone to "By The Book" song circles. Yes. But withall that, like many who post here, I am not satisfied:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/29/17723/334?new=true
    Threads combined. I think two current threads on Rise Up Singing is enough. A third is a bit much.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM

Apparently, we have to wrestle Barry to the ground and hold him there for a count of ten before we can join these "sings"--and even then, if we don't soar like eagles, we'll be cut up for and thrown in the water.


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM

Thanks for your take on this Lisa, it's not only very enjoyable to listen to but it's just as enjoyable to read you too.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:11 PM

I've read Stewart's, Barry's, and PoppaGator's posts while nodding some.

I wouldn't swear to it, but I don't think the blurb on the Seattle Song Circle web page has changed in several years. Apart from the comments about RUS, it pretty much outlines the way SSC started out, as I described above, and continued for the first few years. But it went through the period that I also described, where newcomers to the group began showing up with armloads of books. We wound up politely sitting there while person after person struggled with songs they didn't know and admittedly hadn't encountered until an hour or two before the meeting, while looking for something they might sing.

There was one person who was not particularly interested in folk music, he was into the songs of Jacques Brel—sung in French (which he couldn't speak and which he pronounced egregiously). And these were songs which he had heard, but hadn't particularly attempted to memorize.   So he sang them haltingly, craning his neck to one side so he could read the words out of a song book balanced on his knee while holding his guitar up high and trying to figure out what chords went with "Ne me quitte pas" and other songs.

It was not a pretty sight. Or sound.

He had sung a number of other songs from memory (so he could do it) and he was a fairly competent guitarist. He could have done it with these songs too. So why did he feel that instead of learning the songs at home and working out the chords, it was okay to inflict his first attempts at them on the rest of the group?

Since there was no hierarchy of authority or "Sergeant at Arms," no one policed this kind of thing and everyone did their damnedest to be patient and polite. But when the same sort of thing, by several different people, went on meeting after meeting, many of the originals, people such as John Dwyer, Stan James, Bob Nelson, John and Sally Ashford, and others, including Barbara and me, dropped out. It just wasn't enjoyable anymore.

Later, we heard that SSC had adopted Rise Up Singing as the Official Song Book and that the meetings had turned in hymn-sings, using only songs from the book.

Maybe things have changed, but last I heard from someone who attended recently, it was pretty much the same.

I have a great deal of sympathy for and I like to support and encourage people who are just learning. I remember my first efforts to sing in front of a group and I really appreciate the support and encouragement that I received, not just from other newbie's like myself, but from the more experienced singers such as Walt, Sandy, and Claire. It was a warm plunge, and it gave me the energy and incentive to keep plugging away. And a goodly portion of my professional life has been teaching, so I am well acquainted with the plight of, and sympathetic toward, the beginner wanting to try their wings.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

You are more than welcome to join in singing wherevever I am found, as those that know we, will tell you I always seek for everyone to pitch in & do what ever they can, I don't care if you only came to listen as long as you're having a good time.

You only need to wrestle with me when you're not singing & I don't give a hoot weither you soar or crash land as long as you fly without trying to read at the same time.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:23 PM

Here's the blicky for Lisa's article (and yes, it's very good!):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/29/17723/334?new=true


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

HEY ... I've a REAL NEAT IDEA! Now that we've talked this subject to death, how about if we find a new topic for next year ... maybe something really simple like: "What's A Folk Song?" CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ((AKA bad bad bob))


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM

Good idea! I'll be sharpening my cleats.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM

Sorry Barry, but it looks like we just have to accept that we disagree on this topic.   I have high respect for your opinion, and I do not doubt that you found the sessions "boring" as you described. I still wonder what the rest of the attendees felt - if these sessions have been going on for awhile, someone must enjoy them.   As for the session that you like, it seems like a wonderful event, but if someone is going to feel ostracized if they bring in a book, then I would have to classify it as "elite".   Again, that is not meant as a putdown. If you have something good, you are certainly entitled to keep it going. You say that outsiders are welcome, but I have to wonder if others feel the same way.   You do make it sound intimidating.

Again, I meant no disrespect to anyone who has shared their thoughts.   My personal opinion is that a song circle is about the joy of singing, and I think everyone needs to approach it with an understanding of all the participants and do whatever they can to encourage others to join in.   If you feel you have the right formula, good luck to you. I assume that I won't be hearing any future discussions about why folk music is dieing and why people aren't turning out for sessions.   I assume whatever solutions are out there are meant to be inclusive and welcoming to younger generations.

Sing for the song, not the performance.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM

Aw, Bob, we haven't really talked the subject to death. It's more than just a book we're talking about - it's how to run a song gathering, and how to get people to sing, and how to keep the quality up without excluding people. I think most of us know there are good points on both sides of the discussion - but where do we find the happy median?

I think it's fine to use songbooks at song gatherings, but I'm well aware of the shortcomings of that practice. I went caroling at retirement homes a dozen times this month, and I was dismayed that most of the singers never looked up from their song sheets. I think that human eye contact is essential in singing - and most good singers have good eye contact, whether or not they use a songbook. Sometimes when I find singers with their noses too deep in the book, I'll lead a camp song, sometimes one with hand motions - that often breaks the nose-in-the-book cycle for several songs.

No, mind you, I haven't tried it; but maybe singing naked would cure the nose-in-the book syndrome. People might use the books to hide their....embarrassment.

But to have a good song session, I think you have to do more than just prohibit books and bad singers. You have to put your heart into it - and imagination and a sense of humor helps, too.

-Joe-

P.S. to Ron - Barry is not as intimidating as he sounds. It's really fun to sing with him, and he's always gentle, polite, and encouraging. And I think you'd have a wonderful time at a Getaway. I'll teach you obnoxious camp songs.


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM

Lisa's article is clear & succinct and echoes many of us from the other thread, but as one of the comments following the article shows, some folks never get past the idea that "creating community" is not the only goal when people get together to sing. Those who 'mostly' sing without the book and know various versions of songs, and who know songs not in the book ALSO have a sense of community.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

I like RUS for what it is, a shared vocabulary of a whole lot of good songs. When I'm searching for a song fitting the theme of an upcoming Open Sing, I'll thumb through RUS and search the Digitrad. Odd but fun things can pop up in RUS, like the time I saw "The Man on the Flying Trapese" and added that to my repetoire for the theme of "Ways to get from here to there". "Classics" I haven't thought about for decades will become relevant.

It's also fun to quietly get out my RUS at Open Sings. So often someone will sing a song that's there. One just has a sense it will be found. They, the leader aren't reading out of The Book, they are just singing a reasonably well-known song. But I may have never learned the words, myself, and so I can actually sing along, in harmony, and have a good time as a participant.

This past weekend I was at a small folk gathering in the Philadelphia area. A pretty hard-core Rock and Roll guy was saying (to my astonishment) that he really likes Rise Up Singing. He's always amazed that the words/chords to so many many songs he wants to re-aquaint himself with can be found there.


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

" some folks never get past the idea that "creating community" is not the only goal when people get together to sing. Those who 'mostly' sing without the book and know various versions of songs, and who know songs not in the book ALSO have a sense of community."

Sorry Bill, but I think you are making assumptions.   No one ever denied that people who "mostly" sing without a book have a true sense of community.

I'm afraid you aren't recognizing that there is a danger about losing community when certain actions are taken. I don't think anyone in the other thread said to "go by the book", many of us are simply saying that the idea of banning those who use it is wrong.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM

I have expressed myself elsewhere about the pros & cons of songbooks in general & RUS in particular at sings. Here I will suggest some ways to make books less obtrusive & possibly easier to tolerate.

Reading is faster than singing, and most of the time, in addition, you will have sung or at least heard the song before. Using a crib to sing is not like reading aloud from a newspaper. When I am using a book I try to confine myself to occasional glances, and face the company the rest of the time. A quick scan in advance, to see if the version you know is different, may also be advisable.

All that is all the easier if you are sitting around a large, well-lighted table. The book is horizontal, you don't have to hold it, and your nose is not in it. (Also, your drink is handy.) That used to be the standard setting for convivial singing, and Don Duncan provided it for his sings at Old Joe Clark's of blessed memory. It limits the size of the company, but that is fine with me.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM

I no longer wrestle at any sort of sing or hoot, Barry.   I have had complaints that the inevitable wagering distracts from the singing.

In any case, I never need either a songbook or crib sheets at sings, owing to an annoying trick my brother and I used to do as kids, which is to watch someone's lips and talk(or sing) along with them.

I one day I got a whole band angry at me at a free concert because they thought someone must have stolen tapes of their never completed album and given them to me. That is another story though.

I agree with Joe that this is about all the things that are involved in making a music gathering work--and, books or no, it takes a lot of work to make these seemingly spontaneous events happen!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:50 PM

At Mudcat NOTHING is ever talked to death. Oh, the same folks drag out the same arguments and we go all over them again, but like I said way back at the beginning of this thread, the fuss about RUS has been a time honored subject here no matter that the argument goes nowhere. The "What is Folk" threads may outnumber it by a bit but there's not much in it and no one ever really changes their mind.

When I think back on some of the old topics I think the one that has the most potential to change minds (for a variety of reasons) is "What Condoms Do Mudcatters Prefer." Its been 10 years since that one started and I think many have gone through enough physical changes to change their original answer.

Come to think of it though..............Its not the type or brand or style or color of condom that makes the difference. Like RUS, it depends on how its used.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM

Joe F is a man of my own heart. I drink beer at song circles, which makes it difficult for me to hold a songbook. So, I put the songbook where I can glance at it, and keep a tight hold on my beer.
Sometimes, I blow across the beer bottle as accompaniment. You get harmonics if you blow really hard.

Now, I have occasionally been chastized for giving bad example by drinking at a singaround; but other, more important people have learned to look forward to sharing my six-pack. If I brought a case, I might be dangerous.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM

Geeziz.....A second concurrent thread! What a treat! I can hardly wait to see what pops up that's different.

Spaw(;<))
    Agreed. Threads combined.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

" "What Condoms Do Mudcatters Prefer." Its been 10 years since that one started and I think many have gone through enough physical changes to change their original answer."

For some, it now must be like shooting pool with a rope.







(With apologies to George Burns for stealing his line)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:43 PM

". . . it takes a lot of work to make these seemingly spontaneous events happen!"

Well, I dunno. Elmar Lanczos wasn't a singer, but he was a folk music enthusiast, he had a humongous collection of folk records, he owned a house near the University District, and he lived alone (until he got married some years later). A couple of us (who just happened to have our guitars with us, just in case) would run into each other at the Pizza Haven or the Blue Moon Tavern, and someone would phone Elmar and say, "How about a hoot tonight. Your place."   Elmar would say, "You bring the beer. I'll call a few people." Then we'd also call a few people and say, "Hoot. Elmar's. As soon as you can get there."

Within less than forty-five minutes there would be a dozen, maybe two dozen people sitting around on the sofa, chairs, and cross-legged on the carpet in Elmar's living room, tuning up their guitars, banjos, nose-flutes, whatever. Someone would sing a song. Then someone else would sing. Then someone else. Then the first person would sing again. Then someone would start a song with a good chorus. Then somebody new would sing.

But not everyone sang. Those who did sing might have come alone, or brought a buddy, or a girl friend, or a husband, some of whom sang and some just wanted to listen and enjoy. But anyone was free to lift his or her voice in song, if so moved.

And so on. No one person dominated. Nobody acted as referee or master-of-ceremonies. Common courtesy and mutual respect ruled. If a "Sergeant-at-Arms" was needed (say, in the case of someone who heard about it, didn't give a damn about folk music but was just looking for a party, and then only if he got drunk, rowdy, and disruptive), that would be the host, with whatever other muscle that the situation might call for. But that sort of thing happened rarely, if ever.

If someone who had never sung before hauled off and sang (even if badly), it was generally hailed as a major debut, complete with encouraging comments. Sometimes such folks moved quickly into the ranks of the stronger singers.

No song books or song sheets in sight.

And thus it went.

These days. Bob Nelson phones. He says, "Sunday afternoon. My place. Come around 2:00. Judy and I have a big pot of chili. Bring whatever else you want to eat or drink." So Barbara and I arrive around two-ish. Stewart and Betty are already there, Mike Nelson (no relation to Bob) arrives shortly thereafter, followed by John Weiss and Jerry Middaugh. Moose and Sally arrive, and Casey and Molly even, driving all the way up from Olympia. Beth West arrives, and Nancy Quensé shortly afterwards. She's brought her new hurdy-gurdy (that'll send Bob's cats up the nearest tree!). A couple of Bob's neighbors also drop in. After we chow down, the guitarum and banji and such come out, there is the popping, as beer bottle caps come off (I don't recall anyone ever getting splashed at these fests), and the tuning up ritual takes place ("Give me your D."). When done, someone hauls off and sings the first song. Then someone else sings. Then someone sings a sea chantey (good chorus, everyone joins in). Then someone else sings. Love songs, ballads (accompanied and unaccompanied), sea songs, lullabyes, nonsense songs. Dick and Gela Gibbons manage to make it after all. Dick recites his latest poem. Then someone else sings. . . .

And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers. But some of Bob's and my former guitar pupils are there also, playing and singing, and sometimes Beth's daughter, Lizzie (who is taking violin lessons) plays the fiddle.

When we sing at these song fests, are these "performances?" Well . . . yes and no.

A lot of work? Usually just a telephone call. Then it happens.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way. Community? Camaraderie? Friendship? These things are there. They just happen. If you have to struggle to bring them about, then something's wrong.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:46 PM

*grin*...The picture of Joe (the exuberant ) was part of a site with a link to this page, which tries to wean folks from the RUS habit....

I am not sure where our Open Sing is headed....I'll know more in a week. (Linda Goodman may use RUS a bit, but she is getting less & less dependent on such things...I have been happily amazed at her progress the last couple of years!....good going, Linda)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM

(since Joe combined the threads, this all reads a little bit strange...my post of 7:35 did originally follow immediately after Lisa Null's in that short-lived thread. )


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

Aw hell Bill.....Just admit it. A lot of your posts don't make much sense anymore for whatever reason so don't go blaming Father JoeBro. Just grab a quick nap and come back and try again...................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM

It is difficult to compare a sing that occured 30, 40 or 50 years ago with the way things are today. Participants change and so do their desires, abilities, and needs. We are affected by modern technology as well as our choices of entertainment.   The reality is that changes will evolve and you cannot expect things to work they way they once did.

Sure, there may be a group that can get by without any sheets of paper or books, but nowadays it just isn't the same for everyone. There were reasons that SOME people started bringing books and sheets in the first place and now that they are here, you cannot expect things to go back to the way they once were.

It is nice to get nostalgic and remember - and we can certainly learn lessons and try to incorporate those traditions - but it isn't going to happen by wishing it were so, nor is it going to happen by enforcing rules. You need to look at where we are and where we are going.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 PM

Ron, I just did. Up a few posts.

Big change, however. These days, instead of a phone call, it's frequently an e-mail.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 PM

Not the same thing. You are talking about a old session that is still continuing among the same people.   Naturally that can continue the way you are doing it - and it should.   What we've been talking about in this thread are more public and ongoing sessions that are open to anyone, not an e-mail invite for a group of friends.   I agree with you there, if you have a select group then you absoulutely should follow what you are doing. But when you look at something like the Seattle Folksong Society, it appears they are doing something to involve others. Seems like two different purposes, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:13 AM

It comes down, unsurprisingly, to: different strokes for different folks.

I'm one who used to regularly go to FSGW Open Sings--and look forward to hearing new songs.   Since the advent of RUS (which I affectionately call Sink Down Moaning), I've stopped going to FSGW Open Sings. 1 copy of RUS is enough--let alone 6.

Look, it's a question of time and priorities. I only have so much time I can spend on song sessions. So I will not even take the chance that somebody will say: "Turn to page 34 and sing the second one from the bottom"--which he or she may never have even seen before.

RUS just makes it too easy to exert no effort whatsoever to learn a song--and still expect others to sing it.

I have no objection to song books or packets--if the occasion warrants it.

I lead a yearly SATB door-to-door caroling session which has been going on without a break since 1992--and keeps getting stronger. Soon we may have to split it in 2. I have to find real tenors--so I have to pick a night they can do it--but then all the other parts are led by strong singers. We sing out of a packet I've put together--which also keeps growing. We also take all requests and make up harmonies on the spot for more secular-oriented fare, like White Christmas and Winter Wonderland. We play roles on Wenceslas--male and female. In the packet are anything from Joy to the World and Adeste Fideles-- to Jingle Bells and 12 Days of Christmas--to A La Nanita Nana (which is a big hit with the group as well as our Hispanic neighbors.)

We had 13 invited singers and 10 neighborhood people joining in this year. The kids are really enthusiastic--especially the 4 year olds, but also the 7 and 9 year olds. We ask anybody we sing for if they'd like to join us. And they do.

And we do sound good--as we've been told many many times. Then we go back to Jan's and my place and sing parodies and other seasonal material--and drink and eat--til all hours.

If you have the right people, singing out of a book or packet can be successful. But this is the opposite of the RUS experience.




I've been to RUS hymn sings--- out of town---where I can't avoid the book. I don't take a book, and I sing the choruses, and throw in harmonies. It's really not necessary for every single person to sing every single word. I'd be perfectly happy if the leader would sing the song and the rest of us could join in at the chorus--or just listen.



I also disagree with Ron O's view that it's better to sing out of a book than to look up at the sky for words. I sometimes put my hand on my head to keep words from escaping--as Bill D can testify. But I will not sing out of a book or a sheet at a sesssion--though I may hold a sheet--as a talisman (it works).


So as long as you RUS fans are sure to tell us when you will be using that book, the rest of us can make plans to be elsewhere. And everybody should be happy.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM

It seems effortless because you're practiced at doing it--And learning the songs so that you can sing and play them without fumbling around with, say, Rise Up Singing, is a big part of the work, as well.


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