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BS: Facing East to Mecca
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Subject: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST,Original thinker Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:22 PM This is something I have always wondered about. Muslims traditionally kneel and face east, to Mecca, when they pray. Now, does that also apply if you lived just outside Mecca, on the eastward side, or would you turn round and face the city, ie facing west ? You see what I am getting at ? I would hazard a guess that it might be considered disrespectful to pray with your rear pointed towards the birthplace of the prophet, but maybe not. If in fact Muslims just to the eastward side of Mecca do face west to do their prayers, then at some point , at some line of longitude it must be compulsory to face the other way. This raises the interesting possibility that you could have two groups of Muslims praying simultaneously on either side of the "critical" line, and they would both be facing each other. Or rather , facing away from each other. Am I the first person ever to have wondered about this ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM They face The Kabba which is IN Mecca. From Wikipedia Qibla (Arabic: قبلة ) is an Arabic word referring to the direction that should be faced when a Muslim prays. Most mosques contain a niche in a wall that indicates the qibla. The Qibla has importance to more than just the salat, and plays an important part in everyday ceremonies. The head of an animal that is slaughtered using Halal methods is aligned with the Qibla. After death, Muslims are buried with their faces in the direction of the Qibla. History of the qibla At one point the direction of the Qibla was toward Baitul Muqaddas, Jerusalem (and it is therefore called the First of the Two Qiblas), however, this only lasted for seventeen months, after which the Qibla became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca. According to accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina. Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received a revelation from Allah instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah (literally, "turn your face towards the Masjid al Haram"). According to the historical accounts, Muhammad, who had been facing Jerusalem, upon receiving this revelation, immediately turned around to face Mecca, and those praying behind him also did so. Some skeptics argue that the change was political in nature and resulted from an argument with the Jews of Medina.[citation needed] The Qibla, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction of the Kaaba. Some Muslims from North America determine this direction using a rhumb line, while most Muslims worldwide use a great circle. In Muslim religious practice, supplicants must face this direction in prayer. Muslims do not worship the Kaaba or its contents; the Kaaba is simply a focal point for prayer. In ancient times, Muslims traveling abroad used an astrolabe to find the Qibla. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST,Marion Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM Hi Original Thinker. Actually, you've misunderstood the custom - it's not a question of east or west, but rather of facing Mecca (or more specifically, the Kaaba inside Mecca. So, the people in and around the city would be forming circles around the Kaaba, rather than a line of longitude. I'm not sure what you'd do if you were on the exact opposite side of the earth from the Kaaba... Marion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Jack the Sailor Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM Am I the first person ever to have wondered about this? Probably :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM When we were travelling with an Ivorian friend in Europe, she always asked Mom which way was East, but then she'd argue, until Mom figured out that she (our friend) just wanted to know where her praying would disturb the rest of us the least. If pointed into some discreet corner she always agreed. Nice woman. I miss her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:37 PM The matter is not without controversy, even among Muslims:
--from Wikipedia (see link above) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Sorcha Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:29 PM No, you are NOT the first to wonder about this. I have to! Thanks for the answers, all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: number 6 Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:32 PM "Am I the first person ever to have wondered about this?" ... probably not ... but credit has to be given to you in trying to understand ... a lot of people dont't even try ... that's the problem. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Wolfgang Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:17 AM Beginners Guide To Performing Islamic Prayers The direction of prayer is a minor concern in comparison to other details. On another Islam site I could read that when a Muslim during travel doesn't know which direction to pray she is free to use the direction she thinks is facing the Kaaba. One could construct any number of ridiculous problems like a Muslim in a quickly moving spaceship, does he have to switch direction during prayer if he cruises over Mecca? I'm sure if such a question should be asked seriously the response would be to keep the first direction. Mostly, religions faced with problems not thought about in the original writings choose a common sense approach for such problems instead of a literal approach when a literal approach would make them look silly. So, I'm sure that if there really should be a room in this world in which literally the Kaaba would be in opposite directions in different parts of the room praying Muslims would still prefer one common direction to the other solution. (And BTW, if one really thinks about it originally they could never face each other, even in a completely literal obeying of a critical line) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:44 AM A Muslim in a spaceship would have to face downwards surely? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:57 AM What about prayer times linked to rising and setting sun? This would sometimes be difficult within Arctic and Antarctic Circles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:18 AM The misconception that Muslims always face eastward during prayers is probably due to confusion with other religions which do face eastward, regardless of where on the planet a practitioner may be. The eastward direction is linked to the rising sun and associated symbolism, as Keith mentioned above, not to any particular "thing" toward which one faces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Jim Dixon Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:40 AM Christianity has its quirks, too. When I first visited England, I would visit a cathedral, and read in the guidebook, "In the north aisle…" and I would wonder "How am I supposed to know which aisle is north? I didn't bring a compass!" Later I learned that cathedrals were always oriented with the altar at the east end. Why is that? Is that where we get the word "oriented"? How strict is/was the rule? Does the same rule apply to parish churches? In America, as far as I know, churches and cathedrals are built every which way. What about in other countries? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:44 AM I was wondering what happens about Ramadan within Arctic or Antarctic circles. Either a very long fast or no fast at all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM Medieval English churches are indeed usually oriented in that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM Common practise aboard ship is to have a senior Muslim crewmember report to the bridge before prayers so he could be shown what course the ship was on and determine what direction East was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: number 6 Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:59 AM "all knowledge comes from the East" ... "the eternal east" ... "the perpetual light of the east", source of all light and life. ... Masonry is also orientated toward the 'east' sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: robomatic Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM Muslims and Jews face very similar logical problems when dealing with sundowns in arctic climes, relating anniversaries via the lunar (religious) calendar, and certain dietary regulations in unusual situations. As noted above, there are pragmatic solutions acceptable to people of faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:40 AM I believe in situations where there is little or no divide between day and night the rule is to use the time sthat the sun rises and sets on Mecca. Dunno if it is true - That is what someone told me years ago. Anyhow, why should I always face Micca when I pray? He is usualy south east of me but on his jaunts to the USA he is west. What about when he is in the next room? Cheers :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM Well Micca lives more or less due east from me, so that's all right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: DMcG Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:50 AM Later I learned that cathedrals were always oriented with the altar at the east end. Why is that? Is that where we get the word "oriented"? Many old maps (say 13th C) were made with the East at the top, not North. The word 'orient' is from the Latin, oriens, which means to rise. I hazard a guess that it was easier to align maps with where the sun rose than with north when you didn't have a compass. I can't really say about church buildings! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM I face West for Ladbrokes, North for William Hill and South for The Tote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Jim Dixon Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM Also, is there a custom that in cemeteries, people are buried with their heads to the east? This is a bit of folklore that my father passed on to me. Supposedly he knew of some dead person whose relatives dug him up and turned him around when they realized he had been buried the wrong way. The point of the story was that HE thought it was silly to go to that trouble, but he believed there were other people who thought that orientation was important. I've visited cemeteries many times, but I'm afraid I never paid attention to the way the graves were oriented. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM Indeed, the east-west orientation of graves is a very old custom. It's often found that there is a transition from random orientation of graves (often focused on, say, a barrow) to east-west orientation in ancient cemeteries, and archaeologists use it as a way of assessing the Christianisation of ancient communities. Here's an example (from Whitby Abbey). There is often a 'twist' in old English churches, the nave being slightly out of alignment with the chancel. This is often suggested to represent the attitude of Jesus on the cross. Others think it might be simply due to the fact that the priest was responsible for the chancel, but the people of the parish for the nave, and perhaps they couldn't agree which way was exactly east. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM An example of a grave not aligned east-west is to be found in the churchyard at Brockley in Somerset. The gravestone has a skull and crossbones on it and the grave is said to be that of a pirate - presumably he was not expected to go to heaven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:44 AM In the days before Vatican II, Roman Catholic priests celebrated Mass with his back to the people. The purpose was not to ignore the people - he and the congregation were supposed to be facing in unison toward the Holy Land - and that's why the churches were oriented toward the east. As time went on, the idea of united orientation of priest and people was forgotten. The idea was then that the priest faced the Blerssed Sacrament in the tabernacle, which was considered to be more important than the people. But it was a good idea at first, before the reason behind it got lost. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:32 AM Now let all this nonsense be put straight. The direction of prayer is not a minor problem for muslims, and they have to observe the qibla (the direction of Mecca; Muhammad called his followers "the people of the qibla and the community"). The exact aim is not the Ka'ba, but the place between the mîzâb = water spout and the Western corner of the Ka'ba. So naturally praying muslims would face one another if the building weren't between them. Nowadays the qibla shouldn't be a mathematical problem any more since we have shperic trigonometry. The faithful shouldn't draw lines on a flat map, but ask an experienced geographer. Normally one side of a mosque faces the qibla, and a niche (mihrab) shows the direction. In Germany mosques which often are houses bought by muslims and don't face Mecca the mihrab is inserted assymetrically. In Indonesia where early mosques have been built in a wrong direction they neglect the mihrab and use lines or threads to show the correct direction. In prayer they face North-West. There is no cause for wondering, only the question is wrong. It mustn't be "facing East to Mecca", but "facing Mecca". E.g., in Persia you can only face East or Mecca. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:33 AM Char code for my previous post: Unicode (UTF-8) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:54 AM Skull and bones are common on old graves and not connected with piracy. A hanged man would not even be in a churchyard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Penny S. Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM There is an old tale in Mayfield, Sussex, about the building of the church there in the time of St Dunstan (not then canonised, of course). It happened that Old Nick had it in for Dunstan in particular, and the conversion of Sussex in general, and so, every night, he mipped out and shifted the church a bit off line, so the builders had to take it down and start again. When the Archbishop turned up and inquired why the church was not there, the builders explained that every morning, when they checked the alignment, it was wrong, because af the activities of Old Nick. At this, Dunstan applied his shoulder to the building, heaved it into line, and told the builders not to move it again. And it remained where it was. Now I can think of other reasons for the events of this story, and one detail in particular is that churches were aligned to sunrise on the day of the the saint to which they were dedicated, or some other feast. Naturally, this would not be the same as other days during the building process. Parish church alignments vary. Alignments of different parts of cathedrals vary. I went to Rome this year, and found church alignments so varied that the Earth must have been in uncontrolled tumbling at the time. Unless they were aligned on preceding temples. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Charlie Baum Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM For certain prayers, Jews face Jerusalem the same way Muslims face Mecca. And within Jerusalem, once you've gotten close enough that the scale matters, Jews face the Temple Mount. (Within the temple in olden days, one then faced the Holy-of-Holies, but that's all theoretical now, given the lack of a Temple.) Most Jews I know face due East, or think Mercator-ly as though the Earth were a flat map; I'm the weird one who faces Jerusalem via the Great Circle, because I wouldn't want to fall off the edge of the earth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM Penny - there are similar stories for several churches in the UK, Godshill on the Isle of Wight being one. They were going to build the church at the bottom of the hill but kept finding the stones at the top. In the end they just built the church at the top of the hill and all was well. I have a vague quotation in my head 'as the storm riseth in the east, so shall the son of God', which was accompanied by a fantastic picture of a lightening strike over the sea... but I can't locate the quote. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM In hotels in the Middle East or otherwise likely to be catering for lots of Muslims you'll find on the dressing table a little sticker with an arrow indicating the direction of Mecca. Christian burials in Britain from Roman times have been East-West, with the head at the west, so you face west when reading the headstone. My father was buried in a cemetery oriented that way; he was cremated, but even then his the memorial stone - laid flat, rather than vertical - is oriented so you face west when reading it, even though, for the relatives of the first people in that burial ground, it is a bit awkward as you have to stand jammed up against a hedge and with your feet practically on the stone. See http://www.spoilheap.co.uk/burintr.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Liz the Squeak Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM "Well Micca lives more or less due east from me, so that's all right." And, Topsie ~ if he lies down, his profile is similar to most domed mosques.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: George Papavgeris Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:31 AM What - with a minaret and all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:53 AM and is that a pigeon I can see sitting on the top? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Liz the Squeak Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:45 AM Well.. I've never heard it called that before George!!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: Penny S. Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM Liz, I do know that there are others - I think I've got a book somewhere with a lot in, but that one happens to be the one I had by oral tradition from someone who lived in Mayfield - though not at the time of Dunstan! Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Facing East to Mecca From: DoctorJug Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM Living on the West side of Arran, the view from this window and over Kilbrannan Sound is Kintyre. So here we face West to Macca. |
